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  Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger.
Posted by: Panther - 12-30-2018, 09:51 PM - Forum: Wild Cats - Replies (49)
Today I'm gonna reveal the truth about the strength of tigers and bears. The truth, that opposes the common beliefs of both educated and uneducated people online.

What is strength?
Strength is broken down to two different types.

1- Bone strength
2- Muscle strength (or muscular strength).

Bone strength is nothing but bone density or bone mineral density.
The denser bone is simply the stronger bone. I hope many of you know that.

In this aspect, we don't know who had the denser bones than the others. But you'll find the answers throughout this thread.

Muscular strength refers to the amount of force a muscle can produce and is usually measured by the maximum amount of force a muscle can produce in a single effort (maximal effort).

Muscular strength differs from muscular endurance.
Fat isn't strength!

Brown bears contain 40% of body fat.

"Bears have evolved mechanisms to
tolerate obesity, and do not develop adverse health consequences despite storing massive amounts of body fat"

"Grizzly bears given ad libitum access to lipids, carbohydrates, and
protein chose a fall diet in which lipids provided 73% ± 3% of
metabolizable energy (Erlenbach et al. 2014).Grizzly bears often
attain body fat levels of 30%–40%
in autumn that are considered
“obese to morbidly obese” by human standards (AACE/ACE Obesity
Task Force 1998; Grundy 2004)."

"Together these results suggest
that bears have experienced extensive evolutionary selection to
accumulate large amounts of fat to survive hibernation while
remaining healthy and reproductively active (LeBlanc et al. 2001;
Robbins et al. 2012; Viscarra and Ortiz 2013; Lopez-Alfaro et al.

While that of tigers is roughly around 10% of their body weight.

Let's reduce the body fat and other materials like fur coat, paw pads and claws to get real mass of both species.

The other materials like fur coats and paw pads are indeed heavier in brown bears than that of tigers.Look at the picture below.
This is a tiger paw pad..

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is another image.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is a Grizzly paw pad...

*This image is copyright of its original author

Claws of Grizzly..

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fur coat of Grizzly/Brown bears.

*This image is copyright of its original author

That of tigers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

You can see, bear got these heavier than tiger.
But let's say, both got these weigh about 10% of their body weight.

Reducing these along with body fat.
The average Kodiak bear is 835lbs.
835 - 40% -10% = 835 - 50% = 417.5 lbs of bone and muscle mass for Brown bear.

The average Bengal tiger is 495lbs.
495 -10% -10%= 495 - 20% = 396lbs of bone and muscle mass for Tiger.

The Brown bear got 21.5lbs of bone and muscle mass over tiger on average.

But that doesn't mean it's stronger than tigers. 

To confirm muscular strength, you have to take a look at muscle fibers.

Brown bears contain almost 70% of slow twitch muscle fibers

*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: Muscle mass and muscular force analysis in brown bears of varying
Dr. Martin­Andrews of Michigan State University (Prof. of Zoology, M.Sc. in Zoology, 1989)

While tigers (just like other bigcats) contain more amount of fast twitch muscle fibers

"Recent investigations have shown that the vastus lateralis and longissimus lumborum muscles of feline predators (lion and caracal) exhibit a predominance of type IIX muscle fibres (>50%), with high glycolytic but relatively poor oxidative capacity (as revealed by their oxidative capacities – i.e. NADH stain, and CS and 3HAD activities) (Kohn et al., 2011b). Similar large quantities of type IIX fibres were found in tiger and cheetah muscle (Williams et al., 1997; Hyatt et al., 2010)."

"The largest felid species, the tiger, contained a mixture of fiber types, but a  high percentage of IIx fibers were still present in the limb muscles (Hyatt et al., 2010). The 
requirement of some fibers for endurance may be as a result of the larger felids’ hunting strategies.  Whereas the caracal and cheetah rely on speed of attack, lion (and possible tigers) often require a
combination of power and endurance to hold on to larger prey. This form of attack may continue for prolonged periods, hence the requirement also for some type IIa fibers."

The type I(slow twitch) muscle fibers aren't strength related fibers. They are known for endurance.

While type II(fast twitch) muscle fibers are very famous for strength.

Here's some explaination about it...

"Many people desire a specific outcome from their workouts but unknowingly perform a workout that is contrary to their goals. For example, the marathon runner who wants to go the distance but packs on too much muscle to be light on his feet. If you've got goals but you aren't sure how to get there, understanding the difference between muscular strength and muscular endurance will help you devise the proper resistance-training plan.

Muscular endurance refers to the ability to perform a specific muscular action for a prolonged period of time. For example, your ability to run a marathon or to pump out 50 body weight squats is a product of good muscular endurance. You also use muscular endurance in your daily life when you rake leaves or walk up long flights of stairs.

Muscular strength is a muscle’s capacity to exert brute force against resistance. Your ability to bench press a barbell weighing 200 lbs. for one repetition is a measure of your muscular strength. In daily life, you need muscular strength to pick up a heavy box.

Muscle Composition
Muscles are made up of different types of fibers called slow twitch -- or type 1 -- and fast twitch -- or type 2. Slow twitch fibers are responsible for endurance -- the ability to go long on a treadmill or cycle. Fast twitch fibers come in two types -- A and B. Type A are involved in both power and endurance -- for example, the ability to endure a long sprint or carry a heavy object across the room -- while type B are recruited for short, explosive moves, such as jumping or heaving a very heavy weight.

Training Applications
The proportion of muscle fiber types you have is largely determined by genetics. If you have a predomination of slow twitch fibers, you are better adapted to muscular endurance, able to perform long cardio sessions. A person with more fast-twitch fibers is more adept at muscular strength -- lifting heavy weights for a few repetitions or performing short bouts of high-intensity exercise.

Even though your genetics are predetermined, you can train to increase muscular strength or endurance. Endurance is trained by lifting lighter weights for a higher number of reps or running longer and longer distances. You can build strength by lifting heavier weights for fewer reps and doing short, powerful sprints. The range for building muscular endurance is typically 12 to 25 reps, and the range for building strength is one to eight."

Of course fast twitch fibers are also used for sprinters. But tigers aren't sprinters, that is cheetahs. Who are built for sprint with more type IIx fibers.

So the conclusion is, 60-70% of Brown bear muscles are not built for strength but for stamina. While more than 50%(basically 60%) of tiger muscles are built for brute strength.

So based on all these facts, I say tigers are stronger than Brown on both averages and at parity.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I've made this thread after taking a brief look at these animals, after reading multiple studies and articles, PDFs,etc.. 
So please respect my data and my point. And don't make excuses like "I disagree" or "I have no desire to agree with", without showing the reason for disagreement or without showing the backup for claims
. Thank you,...
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  Intelligence of the big cats...
Posted by: Spalea - 12-28-2018, 12:22 PM - Forum: Wild Cats - Replies (92)
I propose a new topic about big cats' intelligence. Not a biased topic like the previous one " tigers 16% brainier than..." titled. It sounded like a fanboy fanzine...

But a topic also about the advantages, or not, of the social life. As such I come to discover this account of the scientific american :

OK, the title seems categorical. I feel me a little bit contradictal by what I have introduced this new topic. At least, for those who would reproach me for choosing it, there are as many truths as there are scientific men...
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  Tickets for Ranthambore National Park, from Jaipur
Posted by: olivergreen - 12-26-2018, 06:19 PM - Forum: Packages & Offers - No Replies
Hi guys, posting this thread to connect anyone who is planning to visit the tiger reserve of Ranthambore National Park in Sawai Madhopur, Rajasthan. Anyone who have tried to get an online ticket for this reserve know that its very difficult to get confirmed entry pass, especially for the main core areas and if you have a group. And last year, I connected with some guys from Jaipur, that said that they can offer confirmed entry passes for Ranthambore, especially for groups. So, I am sharing their contact details. Name: Mr Chaturbhuj Singh, his contact number: 9928399846 and website is

(Disclaimer: I am not connected with these guys, and only sharing this as 2 members contact me on how I always get confirmed jeep tickets for Ranthambore)
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  Help identifying please
Posted by: Maliboo - 12-26-2018, 10:41 AM - Forum: Miscellaneous - Replies (1)
Hey Grizzly...
I know it’s hard when they are carved but what do you think this is? Thanks.

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Posted by: epaiva - 12-24-2018, 11:50 PM - Forum: Prehistoric animals - No Replies

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Its total length has been estimated to be about 13,5-17,5 m similar to moderns sperm whale (Physeter macrocephalus), making it  one of the largest predators to have ever existed. The tallest tooth measured 36,2 cm it is the largest tooth of any 
 known animal, excluding tusks. It is distinguished from the other raptorial sperm whales by the basin on the skull, and how it spans the entire length of the snout. 
The holotype skull of Livyatan was about 3 m long, like other raptorial sperm whales, Livyatan has a wide gap in between  the temporal fossae on the sides of the skull and zygomatic processes on the front of the skull, indicating a large spece for holdind strong temporal muscles, which are the most powerful muscles between the skull and the jaw. 
Unlike the modern sperm whale, Livyatan had functional teeth in both jaws. The wearing on the teeth indicated that the teeth sheared past each other while biting down, meaning it could bite
off large portions of flesh from its prey. also the lower jaw contained 22 teeth and upper jaw contained 18 teeth.
credtit for information to Wikipedia, pictures and images credit to @a_fools_experiment 
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  Your Dream Vacation
Posted by: brotherbear - 12-24-2018, 09:49 PM - Forum: Vacations and Holidays - Replies (3)
Probably most of us, unless I'm the only person here not wealthy, has a dream vacation, somewhere you would love to visit. 
My first choice would be:
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  Wild Yak (bos mutus)
Posted by: Jimmy - 12-24-2018, 08:33 PM - Forum: Herbivores Animals - Replies (20)
The Wild Yak- bos mutus (the mute ox) probably need it's own honourable section Wink very little verified data is available about this beast, Maybe as a community we can gather as much interesting data as possible, so here it is- a thread to share any materials that may relate to wild yaks - behaviour, physical traits, pictures, distribution, numbers, even domestic ones if it can compare to it's wild counterpart in any way and so on. I will add some stuffs soon, in the meantime, found this cool video

First impression I got was it was a wild yak which came to take over a domestic herd and challenged a domestic bull cuz it resembled very much a wild yak interms of it's  general build, tall hump and notably forward curving and pretty thick horns but then i realized this was all filmed in close proximity, a wild yak would be too dangerous for this and maybe it's close to a wild variety but still a domestic one.
Wild yak in it's habitat

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  Testosterone levels of tigers
Posted by: Panther - 12-24-2018, 02:30 PM - Forum: Debate and Discussion about Wild Animals - Replies (7)
Tigers are one of the more territorial bigcats. And are even more territorial than many bigcats. Most of the territorial battles between tigers were ended in death than that of lions or any big cats. Showing how Territorial they were, actually. 

Many people think lions having more testosterone level than that of tigers, based on a study of capitive specimens. Where it gives mean of 1850 pg/ml for Asiatic lions and 1720 pg/ml for tigers.

But the other study showing other wise. The following study gives the values of 9.71 ng/ml for 4 year old males and 18.02 ng/ml for 6 year old males. That is 9710 pg/ml  and 18020 pg/ml. Much higher than previously thought. 
*This image is copyright of its original author


The following study, sounds familiar to that value...

"Frequent blood samples were collected to study hormonal responses to GnRH in male and female leopards and tigers. Animals were anaesthetized with ketamine-HCl and blood samples were collected every 5 min for 15 min before and 160 min after i.v. administration of GnRH (1 micrograms/kg body weight) or saline. No differences in serum cortisol concentrations were observed between sexes within species, but mean cortisol was 2-fold greater in leopards than tigers. GnRH induced a rapid rise in LH in all animals (18.3 +/- 0.9 min to peak). Net LH peak height above pretreatment levels was 3-fold greater in males than conspecific females and was also greater in tigers than leopards. Serum FSH increased after GnRH, although the magnitude of response was less than that observed for LH. Basal LH and FSH and GnRH-stimulated FSH concentrations were not influenced by sex or species. Serum testosterone increased within 30-40 min after GnRH in 3/3 leopard and 1/3 tiger males. Basal testosterone was 3-fold greater in tiger than leopard males. LH pulses (1-2 pulses/3 h) were detected in 60% of saline-treated animals, suggesting pulsatile gonadotrophin secretion; however, in males concomitant testosterone pulses were not observed. These results indicate that there are marked sex and species differences in basal and GnRH-stimulated hormonal responses between felids of the genus Panthera which may be related to differences in adrenal activity."

While that of lions, wasn't reaching that range. When I looked up.
The following study shows the testosterone of wild male lions from Serengeti and ngorogoro crater lions.
*This image is copyright of its original author


And this study...

*This image is copyright of its original author


These two sources giving the value of 2.5 ng/ml(2500 pg/ml) for wild adult male African lions. 

That is almost more than 3 times lower than that observed in Bengal tigers.
These values showing that tigers posses higher level of testosterone of all big cats..

I need the opinions of you guys. No harsh "versus" debate, just a discussion about "testosterone levels"!
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  The bush dog (Speothos venaticus)
Posted by: epaiva - 12-23-2018, 06:59 PM - Forum: Canids (Canidae) & Hyaenids (Hyaenidae) - Replies (3)
Adult bush dogs have soft long brownish-tan fur, with a lighter reddish tinge on the head, neck and back and a bushy tail, while the underside is dark, sometimes with lighter throat patch. They have short legs retative to their body, as well as a short snout and relatively small ears.
Adults typically have a head and body length of 57-75 cm (20-30 in) with 12,5-15 cm (5-6 in) tail. They have a shoulder height of 20-30 cm (8-12 in) and weight 5-8 kg (11-18 lb). They have short legs relative to their body as well as a short snout and relative small ears. 
- The South American bush dog (Speothos venaticus venaticus) - southern Colombia and Venezuela, the Guyanas, most of Brazil, eastern Ecuador and Peru, Bolivia, northern Paraguay.
- The Panamian bush dog (Speothos venticus panamensis) - Panama, northern Colombia and Venezuela, western Ecuador.
- The southern bush dog (Speothos venaticus wingei) - southern Brazil and Paraguay, extreme northeastern Argentina.
Bush dogs are carnivores and hunt during the day, their tipical prey are pacas, agouti and capybaras all large rodents.
credit to Wikipedia the free enciclopedia

*This image is copyright of its original author
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  Bear and grey wolf interractions in the wild
Posted by: Wolverine - 12-23-2018, 11:25 AM - Forum: Bears - Replies (8)
Last month @Rage2277 posted an info about several cases of black bears killed by wolf packs from Ontario (Canada). Here is a new case, this time with brown bear killed by wolves in the mountains of Kyrgizstan (Central Asia), including short video. The carcass was found by shepard:

For long was accepted the conception that mighty bear completely dominates wolves but new info shows that in some cases is other way around. Any videos, photos and info concerning timber wolf-bear relations could be posted here.


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