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11-17-2022, 07:54 AM( This post was last modified: 11-17-2022, 08:33 AM by Mapokser )
I was reading this thread during the en of HB's reign and there was a lot of talk about their ages, some saying they were born in 2005, some others saying 2007... so I'd like to give my take on this.
First of, based on the Skybed takeover information and pictures of the youger Matimbas I disregard completely any notion they were born in 2005, and maybe more importantly, we have photos of both them and the Majins during their clash in mid-2011 and the Matimbas were clearly younger and clearly at least still some good months away from their prime, unlike like their rivals ( not counting Ndhuna ), they were 6 months to 1 year younger IMO and looked more or less the same age of the Majins exactly 1 year before when they took over the Mapogo's territory.
So while they're definitely not born in 2005, I also think they couldn't be from 2007 either and think that based on photos some were possibly 1 month older than the others. We have to remember that they were territorial and dominant in 2010 after they took over Dozie's territorial so I think they must have been 4 by then. Even more aggressive males like the Mapogos ( who were also 5 and also had an older 6th male with them who was already territorial ) weren't acting like territorial males when that young ( nevermind had any territory ) and would avoid and run from prime lions like the 2 Split Rock males even when they outnumbered them.
Now to address the info about the Skybeds taking over the Birmingham pride and mating with the female in 27 of August 2006, we're told/see that in the same day they ousted their 2 rivals they mated with one female, but this doesn't mean they were conceived there nor that the said lioness is even one of their mothers necessarily ( also someone said at that point that rangers from there said the Matimbas sisters were 14 so they couldn't have been born in 2007 ), in fact it seems to me that the female was already used to them for her to accept and mate with the male so easily. We know takeovers can take months and it's normal for lions to mate for months and it's also very common for females to mate with other males when their coalition males are weakened and a takeover is possible so my guess is that they were already mating with the Skybeds a few months before August 27.
When they first showed up in SS in mid-2011 they were said to be 5yo with the exception of the older male, and their pictures and videos from 2011 clearly show that they couldn't be as young as 4, plus, their behavior, would 4yo males get in long clashes, chases, chasings and even brutal fights against fully-developed males such as Mapogos and Majingilanes? It's normal for older males to chase multiple 4 year olds with easy, these 4yo usually only chase or even worse, fight, when they outnumber their foes pretty decisively.
Not to mention, when they first showed up in SS in June, the information we got was, to quote "it was 3 Matimba/Sava males, they are 6 brothers, five are 5yo and the sixth brother is 7yo". It seems pretty on point, no?
TD;LR: I think evidence points out to them being born in mid-2006 with maybe some being a month older/younger.
*This image is copyright of its original author
August 2011 /\ during clash with the Majingilanes, Ndhuna in the middle. Are you gonna tell me the other two aren't clearly a few months older than 5? Both had long manes, the one in the front has a very dark mane and the one behind Ndhuna has a full mane already.
*This image is copyright of its original author
/\ 17 Oct 2011 in Djuma. How is this guy not around 5 and a half? He would still be 4 going by the interpretation the Skybeds only started mating with the Birmingham females at the very end of August 2006 which would make them be born in December 2006/January 2007.
Those multiple lodges and rangers from SS during HB's time in the West said they did their research and he had turned 15 in May. We can safely say they got the year wrong somehow, but the month is quite a different story, would they have made that up? I don't think so, why May specifically? From what I can gather, it seems very much on point and you can see it above, I'd say they were born in May-June of 2006.
Well, as far as I know, ndhuna was born in late 2005/ early 2006, 3 ( Northern matimbas) were born in mid 2006, while the youngest two ginger and hairy belly were born in December 2006/January 2007
(11-17-2022, 07:54 AM)Mapokser Wrote: and their pictures and videos from 2011 clearly show that they couldn't be as young as 4, plus, their behavior, would 4yo males get in long clashes, chases, chasings and even brutal fights against fully-developed males such as Mapogos and Majingilanes?
Look at the examples of Charleston males, Mbiris, Othawa male or now Mayambula males. Not every male develop in the same way. Some are more impressive than the others because of different (better) genes and/or food access therefore judging age of the males purely by their appearance can be missleading. You say Matimbas must have been older than 4 years old in 2011 because they were already territorial and had nice developed manes. You should check how Mayambula males look like now, having 4 years and also being territorial.
11-17-2022, 06:43 PM( This post was last modified: 11-17-2022, 06:54 PM by Tr1x24 )
If i remember correctly, somebody here provided photos of Hairy Belly as a ~ 1 year old cub in late 2007, meaning Matimbas are prob younger then we thought, prob born from late 2006/ early 2007 onwards.
11-17-2022, 06:52 PM( This post was last modified: 11-17-2022, 06:52 PM by Mdz123 )
(11-17-2022, 06:30 PM)Potato Wrote:
(11-17-2022, 07:54 AM)Mapokser Wrote: and their pictures and videos from 2011 clearly show that they couldn't be as young as 4, plus, their behavior, would 4yo males get in long clashes, chases, chasings and even brutal fights against fully-developed males such as Mapogos and Majingilanes?
Look at the examples of Charleston males, Mbiris, Othawa male or now Mayambula males. Not every male develop in the same way. Some are more impressive than the others because of different (better) genes and/or food access therefore judging age of the males purely by their appearance can be missleading. You say Matimbas must have been older than 4 years old in 2011 because they were already territorial and had nice developed manes. You should check how Mayambula males look like now, having 4 years and also being territorial.
Indeed, Mayambula males have been impressive from a very young age, as they carry the genes of Zigzag and Shaka and thus the Matimba males. Many other powerful coalition's offspring develop impressive manes at a young age, examples are Nguvu (Majiniglane) back in 2018 when he was 3 but looked like a 4~5 yrs old, and PC males (Mantimahle).
Some male lions born to less powerful coalitions can also have dark manes at a young age, such as Dark Mane Fourways male (Mathsapiri), and the current oldest Nkuhuma subadult and Talamati subadults (Avocas), who has really dark mane at their age of around 4
Despite this, there are also lions who were born to strong coalitions but still look younger then they are, such as NYM (BBoys), who looks younger then his age of around 7 yrs old. Young Shish (Older Shish) back in 2020 looked around 4~5 yrs olds but they were actually ~6 yrs old, as they are now 7-8 yrs old.
So basically we cant really make out a lion's age exclusively based on appearance.
(11-17-2022, 06:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: If i remember correctly, somebody here provided photos of Hairy Belly as a 1 year old cub in 2008, meaning Matimbas are prob younger then we thought, prob born from late 2006/ early 2007 onwards.
Talking about Matimba, if they were truly born towards 2007, wouldn't they be only 3 yrs old when they took over their first territory? That might be a bit too young. I believe only the youngest ones, including HB were born in late 2006/early 2007. Rest of them were born earlier.
There are also examples of male lion becoming dominant at 3 yrs old, such as OM, and Mjejane, but I just dont think thats the case for Matimbas.
(11-17-2022, 06:58 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Talking about Matimba, if they were truly born towards 2007, wouldn't they be only 3 yrs old when they took over their first territory? That might be a bit too young. I believe only the youngest ones, including HB were born in late 2006/early 2007. Rest of them were born earlier.
There are also examples of male lion becoming dominant at 3 yrs old, such as OM, and Mjejane, but I just dont think thats the case for Matimbas.
A lot of missinformation floating around about when Matimbas actually become dominant.
Its not exactly clear, their first offspring was born in 2011 in Mbiri pride, and they started mating with their 2nd pride, Talamatis, only towards the end of 2011.
So at best they become dominant in late 2010, but mostly likely it was 2011.
So they become dominant around 4-4.5 yrs of age, which is nothing unusual for such a big coalition, especially as they had 1 older male aswell.
(11-17-2022, 07:54 AM)Mapokser Wrote: and their pictures and videos from 2011 clearly show that they couldn't be as young as 4, plus, their behavior, would 4yo males get in long clashes, chases, chasings and even brutal fights against fully-developed males such as Mapogos and Majingilanes?
Look at the examples of Charleston males, Mbiris, Othawa male or now Mayambula males. Not every male develop in the same way. Some are more impressive than the others because of different (better) genes and/or food access therefore judging age of the males purely by their appearance can be missleading. You say Matimbas must have been older than 4 years old in 2011 because they were already territorial and had nice developed manes. You should check how Mayambula males look like now, having 4 years and also being territorial.
These are good points and it's definitely true that some males develop faster both physically and physiologically, but I raised other points too and think the overall argument is still quite solid.
Also if born in 2007, they could still ( or was likely stilll ) 3 in 2010 when they became dominant, no? Which is even more remarkable. As for being 4 in mid-2011 and acting territorial, my point was not only that they couldn't be, it's not that usunual for 4yo lions to act territorial, but sure is very rare for 4yo to clash and engage fully-developed dominant males if they don't have have a good advantage in numbers, which adds to my feel that they must have been 5 at that moment.
(11-17-2022, 06:58 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Talking about Matimba, if they were truly born towards 2007, wouldn't they be only 3 yrs old when they took over their first territory? That might be a bit too young. I believe only the youngest ones, including HB were born in late 2006/early 2007. Rest of them were born earlier.
There are also examples of male lion becoming dominant at 3 yrs old, such as OM, and Mjejane, but I just dont think thats the case for Matimbas.
A lot of missinformation floating around about when Matimbas actually become dominant.
Its not exactly clear, their first offspring was born in 2011 in Mbiri pride, and they started mating with their 2nd pride, Talamatis, only towards the end of 2011.
So at best they become dominant in late 2010, but mostly likely it was 2011.
So they become dominant around 4-4.5 yrs of age, which is nothing unusual for such a big coalition, especially as they had 1 older male aswell.
Only information I can find here on WF is that they ousted the male Dozie and took over Manyeleti from him in 2010. Same Dozie who was the dominant male of the Nkuhuma Pride in Djuma with his partner Blondie.
(11-18-2022, 02:16 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Only information I can find here on WF is that they ousted the male Dozie and took over Manyeleti from him in 2010. Same Dozie who was the dominant male of the Nkuhuma Pride in Djuma with his partner Blondie.
I found this info, by Darren Donovan :
"The first time someone heard of Matimbas was in Manyeleti 6 of them in March 16, 2010. By the time, we have properly known them, they have already started pushing the dominant Males of the area. And in oct 10 2010, they took over their first territory when they attacked and ousted the dominant Male Dozie of the area."
Also, Old Skybeds came into Ngala in 2006, so they cant be born before that.
HB was one of the youngest, photo of them from June 2011 at Nkorho :
(SlitNose, Ndunha, HB, not sure who is the last on the right)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Look how young HB looks, thats not 5 yrs old male, and HB has top genes, he couldnt be underdeveloped like that at 5 yrs of age, he barely has mane on top of his head, even current NK male, who prob had most underdeveloped mane compared to age, had more mane at 5 yrs then this..
HB is almost certaintly born from late 2006/early 2007 onwards, maybe even up to mid 2017, and rest of Matimbas are prob not older then mid-late 2006 either.
11-18-2022, 05:41 AM( This post was last modified: 11-18-2022, 05:46 AM by Mapokser )
Nice info /\ so they really started the takeover early in 2010, as I said I disregard completely any idea they were born before 2006 ( not including Ndhuna ), but as for HB, like you say he doesn't seem to be 5 in June, and as others say I also think now that the youngest, HB ( and Ginger? Dunno if they're littermates but the the 2 youngest splitting from the 3 older brothers makes sense ) was born in December or even in 2007 while the Northern Matimbas were from mid-2006.
Though I do wonder where the rangers in their research got that HB was born in May specifically, maybe who gave them the info was mistaking HB's birth by that of an older Matimba? Or maybe he was indeed born in May, but of 2007? That would barely make him 3 when they started pushing Dozie so I'd imagine he had to be older to have this territorial behavior, though he doesn't seem to be any older than Dec 2006.
(11-18-2022, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Nice info /\ so they really started the takeover early in 2010
No, they came in Manyeleti in early 2010, (they didnt started to takeover immiditately) they takeover territory in late 2010, in which case most of them should be around 4 yrs old, Ndunha prob 5.
(11-18-2022, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: ( and Ginger? Dunno if they're littermates but the the 2 youngest splitting from the 3 older brothers makes sense )
HB and Ginger where not littermates, Ginger and White Face where prob, based of face similarity.
I think, by the ages, it goes: Ndunha, SlitNose, Shaka/WhiteFace/Ginger (around the same age) , HB
(11-18-2022, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Or maybe he was indeed born in May, but of 2007? That would barely make him 3 when they started pushing Dozie so I'd imagine he had to be older to have this territorial behavior, though he doesn't seem to be any older than Dec 2006.
As i say, they started to takeover after mid 2010, towards late 2010, at that point HB was around 3,5 yrs old prob.
HB just needed to follow his older brothers, and it was 6vs1, they hardly had any "tough" job to do.
11-18-2022, 10:17 PM( This post was last modified: 11-18-2022, 10:21 PM by Mapokser )
The report says "first time someome heard of them was in Manyeleti in march. By the time we have properly known them, they have already started pushing the dominant males of the area."
It leaves room to interpretation as nowhere it states clearly when that happened exactly, though I wouldn't think they would need 5-6 months to "properly known them". They took over the territory in Oct 10, but takeovers usually don't happens in a single day, the "starting pushing other males" may happen throughout months.
But anyway it's true that it wouldn't be a difficult fight and HB was much younger than the others, I was mostly interested by such a young male showing territorial behavior and already having a territory.
(11-18-2022, 10:17 PM)Mapokser Wrote: But anyway it's true that it wouldn't be a difficult fight and HB was much younger than the others, I was mostly interested by such a young male showing territorial behavior and already having a territory.
Well, older males dont wait their younger brothers to come to an age to start challenging territorial males, they do it and younger males either follow them or split.
Also, younger males feel much more confident near bigger, older and confident brothers (remember 6 Vurhamis , some of them where younger then the rest, like Mbilu compared to Mo, and where not even 4 yrs old when they challenged Mjejanes).
Young coalition of bigger numbers will usually start to challenge for territory sooner then smaller coalitions.
That being said, i dont think that age difference between oldest (except Ndunha), prob Slit Nose, and youngest, HB, was more then half a year to few months apart.
(11-18-2022, 10:17 PM)Mapokser Wrote: But anyway it's true that it wouldn't be a difficult fight and HB was much younger than the others, I was mostly interested by such a young male showing territorial behavior and already having a territory.
Well, older males dont wait their younger brothers to come to an age to start challenging territorial males, they do it and younger males either follow them or split.
Also, younger males feel much more confident near bigger, older and confident brothers (remember 6 Vurhamis , some of them where younger then the rest, like Mbilu compared to Mo, and where not even 4 yrs old when they challenged Mjejanes).
Young coalition of bigger numbers will usually start to challenge for territory sooner then smaller coalitions.
That being said, i dont think that age difference between oldest (except Ndunha), prob Slit Nose, and youngest, HB, was more then half a year to few months apart.
Yeah, though it's a shame things turned out so horribly to the Vurhamis, they lacked experience, I think if one of the six was even older and and wiser like Makhulu and Ndhuna their story would be different. As for the age difference, It does seem to be around half a year which is almost nothing when they get older, but when they are young I think it's fair to say it's a big difference. Isn't that the reason the Avocas were split? 2 were a few months older and got kicked out first. In young males a few months can make a huge difference in maturity.
