Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage

[T_Ferguson]

(08-15-2024, 08:38 PM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 08:09 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 07:31 PM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 07:53 AM)peter Wrote:

(08-14-2024, 07:56 PM)BA0701 Wrote: S Avoca, eating a warthog he'd caught earlier.

Large male. Anything known about the size of the Avoca males?

As @Potato mentioned, his brother was a very large and robust male, who disappeared a year and a half, to two years ago, after they were unseated by the young Nkhulu coalition. This boy returned back to their previous territory in southern Sabi Sands not long after, and has been hanging in the general vicinity of his old territory ever since. There has been some tough times for him, but in recent days he seems to be rebounding well, though it is doubtful he will become territorial again, as he seems more focused in just surviving at this point, and doing well, as the picture demonstrates.

I often wonder if they read the room right on the Nkhulu takeover.  After the S. Avocas beat down Dreadlocks DeLaparte, the Nkhulu's sort of splintered and at least 4 of them were in very poor health and the other 2 seemed less than froggy.  I know there was the incident with the Southern Lioness that they killed and ate, but I still think the 2 S. Avoca's could have easily held them off for at least this long.

When 7 males lions are entering your territory, and you are aging a bit, I think it is impossible to say how one might respond. Look at how the aging Hairy Belly responded to the 3, very, skittish Tumbelas, it became a bloodless coupe. I think he could have driven them off as well, as he had already chased them a few times, and they did not seem interested in confronting the lone male, But, by that point, and at his advanced age, I just think HB knew he didn't have another battle in him, where in years past he'd have fought all three at the drop of a hat, especially with how skittish they were. That is a tremendous gamble to take, in light of the odds confronting you. Knowing what we know now, and can see, as humans, I do agree, they likely could have held them off for awhile longer, perhaps could even have dwindled their ranks a little more.

Oh, I get it.  I think my issue comes in that they left this territory they knew and went and seemingly (yes, we'll never for sure know) tried to battle other known dominant males costing the larger brother his life.  Sometimes it's just confusing. Reply

[BA0701]

(08-15-2024, 08:40 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 08:38 PM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 08:09 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 07:31 PM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 07:53 AM)peter Wrote:

(08-14-2024, 07:56 PM)BA0701 Wrote: S Avoca, eating a warthog he'd caught earlier.

Large male. Anything known about the size of the Avoca males?

As @Potato mentioned, his brother was a very large and robust male, who disappeared a year and a half, to two years ago, after they were unseated by the young Nkhulu coalition. This boy returned back to their previous territory in southern Sabi Sands not long after, and has been hanging in the general vicinity of his old territory ever since. There has been some tough times for him, but in recent days he seems to be rebounding well, though it is doubtful he will become territorial again, as he seems more focused in just surviving at this point, and doing well, as the picture demonstrates.

I often wonder if they read the room right on the Nkhulu takeover.  After the S. Avocas beat down Dreadlocks DeLaparte, the Nkhulu's sort of splintered and at least 4 of them were in very poor health and the other 2 seemed less than froggy.  I know there was the incident with the Southern Lioness that they killed and ate, but I still think the 2 S. Avoca's could have easily held them off for at least this long.

When 7 males lions are entering your territory, and you are aging a bit, I think it is impossible to say how one might respond. Look at how the aging Hairy Belly responded to the 3, very, skittish Tumbelas, it became a bloodless coupe. I think he could have driven them off as well, as he had already chased them a few times, and they did not seem interested in confronting the lone male, But, by that point, and at his advanced age, I just think HB knew he didn't have another battle in him, where in years past he'd have fought all three at the drop of a hat, especially with how skittish they were. That is a tremendous gamble to take, in light of the odds confronting you. Knowing what we know now, and can see, as humans, I do agree, they likely could have held them off for awhile longer, perhaps could even have dwindled their ranks a little more.

Oh, I get it.  I think my issue comes in that they left this territory they knew and went and seemingly (yes, we'll never for sure know) tried to battle other known dominant males costing the larger brother his life.  Sometimes it's just confusing.

Trust me, S Avocas were one of my favorite coalitions at that time, their close bond always struck me, because it went beyond what we normally see. I hated what happened, nobody was more shocked than I, when we suddenly saw the lone brother returning to Sabi Sands alone. Now we see a similar closeness with the Nwas, Gijimas, and the PCMs, and I really enjoy watching them as well, for the same reason. When you look at how close Blondie and Mohawk were, it was similar as well, they just looked after one another, and it was great to see. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

I think the Nkhulus were capable enough to take out the Avocas if it came to a fight. Unlike the Gijimas southern pride, they were serious about taking over the Sand river pride and the advantage they had at the time was huge. 

In HBs case it would not matter much if he won. The Othawas already made their pick and if he didnt leave, he would have become a nomad in his own territory. Reply

[Mapokser]

@peter His northern brother Mohawk is definitely small, even next to lionesses he doesn't look impressive and his northern brother Blondie was clearly much bigger, with the other brother, Dark Mane, even much more.

S.Avocas were/are probably around above average in their prime, but one of the southern rangers IIRC from Sabi Sabi back in the day said they didn't compare to the Charleston males who were known to be very large. Reply

[Rui Ferreira]

(08-15-2024, 09:31 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @peter His northern brother Mohawk is definitely small, even next to lionesses he doesn't look impressive and his northern brother Blondie was clearly much bigger, with the other brother, Dark Mane, even much more.

S.Avocas were/are probably around above average in their prime, but one of the southern rangers IIRC from Sabi Sabi back in the day said they didn't compare to the Charleston males who were known to be very large.

https://youtu.be/WvTb0NfOWls?si=GlqKK67odzRa74pg 

Mohawk wasnt the biggest lion out there I agree but he wasnt that small, maybe same size perhaps bigger than Eorenji Ndzengha?
Blondie was very bulky in his prime ( what a lion, love him) 
Speaking of the northen avocas, what about the Kruger Nkuhumas, Chela´s boy is seems like he is going to be similar to Blondie´s size and he gets somewhat dwarfed by his brother in terms of height, those boys have Matimba blood so what would be strange is if they turned out to be small lol Reply

[Go131810]

(08-15-2024, 10:14 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 09:31 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @peter His northern brother Mohawk is definitely small, even next to lionesses he doesn't look impressive and his northern brother Blondie was clearly much bigger, with the other brother, Dark Mane, even much more.

S.Avocas were/are probably around above average in their prime, but one of the southern rangers IIRC from Sabi Sabi back in the day said they didn't compare to the Charleston males who were known to be very large.

https://youtu.be/WvTb0NfOWls?si=GlqKK67odzRa74pg 

Mohawk wasnt the biggest lion out there I agree but he wasnt that small, maybe same size perhaps bigger than Eorenji Ndzengha?
Blondie was very bulky in his prime ( what a lion, love him) 
Speaking of the northen avocas, what about the Kruger Nkuhumas, Chela´s boy is seems like he is going to be similar to Blondie´s size and he gets somewhat dwarfed by his brother in terms of height, those boys have Matimba blood so what would be strange is if they turned out to be small lol

I saw the video; did blonde look like the Southern Avoca brother? The Southern Avoca use to look so strong and big with his dark mane. The Southern Avoca in Sabi Sands right now reminds me of Mohawk, but like his brother he just looks so strong and his dark mane looks a bit darker from Mohawk. The Southern Avocas had darker manes. Reply

[Go131810]

(08-15-2024, 10:14 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 09:31 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @peter His northern brother Mohawk is definitely small, even next to lionesses he doesn't look impressive and his northern brother Blondie was clearly much bigger, with the other brother, Dark Mane, even much more.

S.Avocas were/are probably around above average in their prime, but one of the southern rangers IIRC from Sabi Sabi back in the day said they didn't compare to the Charleston males who were known to be very large.

https://youtu.be/WvTb0NfOWls?si=GlqKK67odzRa74pg 

Mohawk wasnt the biggest lion out there I agree but he wasnt that small, maybe same size perhaps bigger than Eorenji Ndzengha?
Blondie was very bulky in his prime ( what a lion, love him) 
Speaking of the northen avocas, what about the Kruger Nkuhumas, Chela´s boy is seems like he is going to be similar to Blondie´s size and he gets somewhat dwarfed by his brother in terms of height, those boys have Matimba blood so what would be strange is if they turned out to be small lol

I thought one of the Nukhuma male lions have not been seen. Reply

[BA0701]

(08-15-2024, 10:59 PM)Go131810 Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 10:14 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:

(08-15-2024, 09:31 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @peter His northern brother Mohawk is definitely small, even next to lionesses he doesn't look impressive and his northern brother Blondie was clearly much bigger, with the other brother, Dark Mane, even much more.

S.Avocas were/are probably around above average in their prime, but one of the southern rangers IIRC from Sabi Sabi back in the day said they didn't compare to the Charleston males who were known to be very large.

https://youtu.be/WvTb0NfOWls?si=GlqKK67odzRa74pg 

Mohawk wasnt the biggest lion out there I agree but he wasnt that small, maybe same size perhaps bigger than Eorenji Ndzengha?
Blondie was very bulky in his prime ( what a lion, love him) 
Speaking of the northen avocas, what about the Kruger Nkuhumas, Chela´s boy is seems like he is going to be similar to Blondie´s size and he gets somewhat dwarfed by his brother in terms of height, those boys have Matimba blood so what would be strange is if they turned out to be small lol

I thought one of the Nukhuma male lions have not been seen.

There were 5 who initially left and went into Kruger, Mohawk and four sons. When they returned, the one son with a scar on his lip got killed. The remaining 4 went back into Kruger, then only Mohawk returned. A lot of speculation, but we then got pictures of the two males together, in Kruger, and there is one who has still not been seen in some time. Reply

[KM600]

I think this video ties back to an earlier discussion yesterday. I’m not sure if Mohawk necessarily sees the BDM as a coalition partner, but he 100% has taken a liking to him and has allowed him various times to feed and has even watched over him. With Mohawk acting like this, there’s no reason for the BDM to leave him.

Reply

[Potato]

(08-17-2024, 12:03 AM)KM600 Wrote: but he 100% has taken a liking to him and has allowed him various times to feed and has even watched over him

"allowed" lol Black Dam male is adult in his prime. He doesn't need Mohawk to allow him to feed, he can just foce his way ino dinner. I would say it is more likely han not that actually BDM would beat Mohawk than the other way around if those wo would fight for some reason, like food or mating rights. Reply

[KM600]

(08-17-2024, 12:32 AM)Potato Wrote:

(08-17-2024, 12:03 AM)KM600 Wrote: but he 100% has taken a liking to him and has allowed him various times to feed and has even watched over him

"allowed" lol Black Dam male is adult in his prime. He doesn't need Mohawk to allow him to feed, he can just foce his way ino dinner. I would say it is more likely han not that actually BDM would beat Mohawk than the other way around if those wo would fight for some reason, like food or mating rights.

That quite literally makes zero sense. There have been numerous situations since the BDM has joined up with Mohawk and he’s never ate first, and I can tell u he’s not starving because he wants to. Even today, Tendai reported Mohawk was feeding on the kill with some Nkuhuma females and the BDM was just watching them eat. 

It’s very clear Mohawk is the more dominant male and that’s clear with all this footage. Reply

[Potato]

(08-17-2024, 01:54 AM)KM600 Wrote: and I can tell u he’s not starving because he wants to

He is not starving at all, he is in decent shape.

(08-17-2024, 01:54 AM)KM600 Wrote: Even today, Tendai reported Mohawk was feeding on the kill with some Nkuhuma females and the BDM was just watching them eat. 

You expect him to be eating 24/7? 

(08-17-2024, 01:54 AM)KM600 Wrote: It’s very clear Mohawk is the more dominant male and that’s clear with all this footage.

In which fotage? Is there even a single one in which MOhawk would actually be dominating Black Dam male? I do not think so. Reply

[sik94]

(08-17-2024, 12:32 AM)Potato Wrote: "allowed" lol Black Dam male is adult in his prime. He doesn't need Mohawk to allow him to feed, he can just foce his way ino dinner. I would say it is more likely han not that actually BDM would beat Mohawk than the other way around if those wo would fight for some reason, like food or mating rights.

It's all about confidence, BDM isn't thinking or acting like a male in his prime. Mohawk on the other hand is still dominant over a pride and has never been in a state of such low confidence in his life, Mohawk would absolutely dominate him in every scenario until he gains some confidence. Reply

[Potato]

(08-17-2024, 08:00 AM)sik94 Wrote: Mohawk on the other hand is still dominant over a pride

He is not dominant already for years. He hangs out with a pride, just as Black Dam does, but he is not dominant over pride nor on any piece of land. 

(08-17-2024, 08:00 AM)sik94 Wrote: Mohawk would absolutely dominate him in every scenario

Well then... I on the other hand would expect Black Dam to be a bit more dominant or at least be fairly equal to Mohawk. I highly dissagreewith lines like: Mohawk is much more dominant and could allow or not allow to feed, be with a pride or whatever. Reply

[KM600]

I am all for ppl having different opinions but what are we doing here, there’s literal video proof and u disagreeing. I think sometimes ppl just want to create their own opinion for the sake of it, I promise u it’s cool for everyone to agree on simple topics like this where it’s very clear to see what’s going on. Reply