There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural. He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin. I think there were 11 of the cubs? And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan." A nickname very apt and fitting.
It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it.
Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.
Common in humans? I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point. And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.
I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top. I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs. At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default. They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny. After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline??? Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive. In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands. They should have had many, many more surviving offspring. It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.
07-15-2020, 08:48 PM( This post was last modified: 07-15-2020, 08:55 PM by Tr1x24 )
(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: Common in humans? I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point. And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.
I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top. I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs. At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default. They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny. After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline??? Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive. In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands. They should have had many, many more surviving offspring. It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.
Because of this situation, lionesses mate with all members of coalition, to "trick" them that all of them are fathers, otherwise cubs are in danger if they would mate with only 1 male out of 4 for example..
Great example is N. Avocas with Talamatis and Nkuhumas, both pride females mate with all 3 males (maybe not all females) even if DM is with Talamatis and Nkuhumas are with Mohawk/Blondie, just because of this situation.. If DM for example came to Nkuhumas now, cubs would be in serious danger if he didnt mate with those lionesses..
Mr T didn't mate with those lionesses, and he did what his insticts tell him, to kill those cubs to mate with those lionesses and raise his offspring, thats all..
Thats lions world, it has nothing to do with Mr T being "evil" or idk. Maybe less agressive and dominant male wouldn't do that, but we dont know that..
(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural. He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin. I think there were 11 of the cubs? And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan." A nickname very apt and fitting.
It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it.
Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.
Common in humans? I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point. And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.
I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top. I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs. At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default. They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny. After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline??? Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive. In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands. They should have had many, many more surviving offspring. It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.
Yeah, I realize I shouldn't have dragged in human infanticide. Though according to Wikipedia "Parental infanticide researchers have found that mothers are far more likely than fathers to be the perpetrators of neonaticide and slightly more likely to commit infanticide in general" -- ins't that a big unexpected surprise?
My point was that the acting of killing cubs doesn't make Mr T exceptional and I provided instances where this has happened. Technically they weren't his cubs as he hadn't mated with any of those lionesses, so again he did what most male lions would do (and he returned from a territorial fight having barely survived.) To me that's ground enough to understand Mr Ts behavior without dragging in Biblical references, though it did wonders for the documentary makers as we are having this discussion right now. As to whether he killed the cubs with relish and joy, well, I don't know how to judge the attitudinal difference between a lion killing a cub in a regular way and a lion killing a cub in the Mr T way. So I can't say much to that. Should the other coalition members intervene? I don't know, is there a documented instance of a coalition member stepping in to prevent his fellow coalition members from killing their cub? I know lionesses that will kill cubs within a pride.
In the grand scheme of things I don't find Mapogos that exceptional. Big coalitions tend to control larger territories and may have numerous cubs but nothing is guaranteed. An outbreak of rabies or some other viral infection, and an entire generation of lions will get wiped out. So its all a series of probabilities and not something axiomatic.
(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: Common in humans? I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point. And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.
I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top. I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs. At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default. They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny. After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline??? Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive. In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands. They should have had many, many more surviving offspring. It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.
Because of this situation, lionesses mate with all members of coalition, to "trick" them that all of them are fathers, otherwise cubs are in danger if they would mate with only 1 male out of 4 for example..
Great example is N. Avocas with Talamatis and Nkuhumas, both pride females mate with all 3 males (maybe not all females) even if DM is with Talamatis and Nkuhumas are with Mohawk/Blondie, just because of this situation.. If DM for example came to Nkuhumas now, cubs would be in serious danger if he didnt mate with those lionesses..
Mr T didn't mate with those lionesses, and he did what his insticts tell him, to kill those cubs to mate with those lionesses and raise his offspring, thats all..
Thats lions world, it has nothing to do with Mr T being "evil" or idk. Maybe less agressive and dominant male wouldn't do that, but we dont know that..
I'm well aware of all this. I didn't mention anything about females mating with lots of male lions to "trick" them. I was merely pointing out that it was kind of shocking that Satan eliminated ALL of his nephews and nieces....after his brothers accepted him back. Even if they were only driven by instinct, they would hardly have "known" he'd instinctively do this, but then again, lions don't calculate the next actions of other lions very deliberately like humans. It would have been more "normal" if he'd killed a few, half, or a bit more in hindsight, since he could have mated with some of the lionesses already as there were likely various litters.... but that was not the case... Obviously others also didn't find his actions were altogether normal since he got the nickname "Satan" after the killings.
For your information, I also read that he would kill lionesses just for refusing to mate with him. No, most male lions wouldn't take it to that extreme lengths. This was also definitely peculiar behavior.
I just find it fascinating overall, the uniqueness of the coalition, however "good" or "bad" we might find it. Am I glad they are not the 'norm'? Probably....since there were lots of killing of other lions and cannibalizing.
(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural. He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin. I think there were 11 of the cubs? And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan." A nickname very apt and fitting.
It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it.
Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.
Common in humans? I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point. And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.
I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top. I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs. At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default. They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny. After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline??? Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive. In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands. They should have had many, many more surviving offspring. It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.
Yeah, I realize I shouldn't have dragged in human infanticide. Though according to Wikipedia "Parental infanticide researchers have found that mothers are far more likely than fathers to be the perpetrators of neonaticide and slightly more likely to commit infanticide in general" -- ins't that a big unexpected surprise?
My point was that the acting of killing cubs doesn't make Mr T exceptional and I provided instances where this has happened. Technically they weren't his cubs as he hadn't mated with any of those lionesses, so again he did what most male lions would do (and he returned from a territorial fight having barely survived.) To me that's ground enough to understand Mr Ts behavior without dragging in Biblical references, though it did wonders for the documentary makers as we are having this discussion right now. As to whether he killed the cubs with relish and joy, well, I don't know how to judge the attitudinal difference between a lion killing a cub in a regular way and a lion killing a cub in the Mr T way. So I can't say much to that. Should the other coalition members intervene? I don't know, is there a documented instance of a coalition member stepping in to prevent his fellow coalition members from killing their cub? I know lionesses that will kill cubs within a pride.
In the grand scheme of things I don't find Mapogos that exceptional. Big coalitions tend to control larger territories and may have numerous cubs but nothing is guaranteed. An outbreak of rabies or some other viral infection, and an entire generation of lions will get wiped out. So its all a series of probabilities and not something axiomatic.
Yes, the killing by female lions of cubs occurs sometimes, unfortunately. I always wonder what motivates that behavior. Lions are driven to kill, though, over territories, food, mating rights....it's just a strong instinct they have to resolve conflicts and get the upper hand. Some lions, even lionesses, apparently have this instinct more than others.
I suspect, regarding the lack of male offspring altogether, and there being only some female offspring left, that the reason fewer cubs than anticipated seemed to survive and thrive is because the Mapogo coalition got too ambitious and greedy for females and territories. They found themselves controlling so much, that many of their cubs were left far too vulnerable....very unfortunate for their legacy. Others might say that there are also other reasons....like rangers and poachers who disliked them. I simply don't have the insider information on that to agree wholeheartedly.
Legendary Makhulu Male Lion (The Boss of the the Six Male Lions Coalition named Mapogo) Roaring with his lioness
at Ulusaba Private Game Reserve
Dated: September 2011
Credits of the video goes to Drew Abrahamson
07-31-2020, 03:21 AM( This post was last modified: 08-01-2020, 09:29 PM by BA0701 )
Just when I thought I had seen all of the Mapogo videos, this pops into my YT feed. This video, recently posted to YT by this user on 07/04/20, documents a battle the last 3 Mapogos had with the Matimbas, the lead up to the fight, the fight itself, along with the aftermath. Towards the end there is also a portion that shows the kinder gentler side of the last 3, while sleeping during their convalescence, something you do not see often, especially with Mr. T. Perhaps some of you have seen this video, or the clips that it is created from, but I definitely had not. If you haven't seen this video, or the clips it is made from, enjoy, there's some good stuff in there.
