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(08-11-2022, 05:14 AM)BA0701 Wrote: This is concerning, given the Manghenis being known for their aggression towards other prides, this may get the Tsalala princess hurt.
I dont think Tsalala and older Mhangeni join them, it says 6 female lions in total, meaning sub female is also counted in.
Im saying this, because of that supposedly missing female, who might not ne missing afterall.
Ah. ok, understood. I mistook the going back and forth comment to read that the older female was going back and forth between Tsalala and the pride. Sorry for the confusion.
I hope the cub doesn't find itself in a perilous situation should the females coming into oestrus attract some males, the cub won't have its mother to escape with and Tinya will be coming into season so her running days will end soon too.
(08-13-2022, 12:48 AM)Tonpa Wrote: I hope the cub doesn't find itself in a perilous situation should the females coming into oestrus attract some males, the cub won't have its mother to escape with and Tinya will be coming into season so her running days will end soon too.
Dont think so, not only her mother protected her this whole time, yet whole pride (except 1 female who left to mate with PC males), so i dont see the reason why they would quit now, as they would do that long time ago and moved with Old Mhangeni to PC males, as they should be all in estrus since around OM died and they lost all other cubs.
Tinya also should be in estrus already 1 year ago (she is 4.5 now, females start to mate at around 3.5) but she also chosed to stick with them in "mission" to protect the cub.
I think more lionesses went of to mate with the PCMales in the past. This one lioness is just the first to end up pregnant.
We shouldnt read to much into this. Its uncommon for prides to deliberately seek out outsider males as a whole when there are still cubs to protect. This sneaking off to mate behavoir is far more common. Even if OM was still around
I am more curious why the lioness is prefering the Tsalala lioness over her own pride currently.
I guess its an issue of safety. Better to start a new pride that fully accepts the PCmales than to drag young cubs along with her old one as they are constantly avoiding everyone.
This may become an issue later though. Once the Mhangeni cub is fulluy grown or dies. The rest of the Mhangeni pride will start moving closer to the PCmales aswell. This new Tsalala/Mhangeni pride will be pushed in a very complex position.
If Tinya was in oestrus she'd be doing the same thing the older female and Big boys sister did, seeking out males to mate with. Doesn't really make sense for Tinya herself to be on a "mission" while the other two ignore it...
The following 1 user Likes Tonpa's post:1 user Likes Tonpa's post • afortich
08-13-2022, 12:42 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2022, 12:45 PM by Tr1x24 )
(08-13-2022, 10:22 AM)Tonpa Wrote: If Tinya was in oestrus she'd be doing the same thing the older female and Big boys sister did, seeking out males to mate with. Doesn't really make sense for Tinya herself to be on a "mission" while the other two ignore it...
I said she should be, but its not only Tinya, all Mhangeni females "should" be in estrus since around OM death and they lost all their cubs, except that cubs mom, but yet only 1 female decided to move and mate with PC males.
I think only Big Boy's sister was few times seen mating with NK, but that was more then half a year ago.
Basically all other 4 females decided to ignore males for mating and defend the cub, they where seen in company of Wide-Nose Ndhzengas while ago and in their territory, but they didnt mate with him yet abandon him and Ndhzengas and protect the cub.
This is hard to explain, but, even if some females are not directly mothers of specific cub, being in the same group, their brain prob "tricks" them into thinking that they need to protect the cub as if its their offspring, and prob because of that, they dont go in estrus cycles.
Same thing prob is happening with Kambula childcare group, as that 1 female lost her cubs, but its still with her sister and their cubs.
Also, if we go into past, BB and Tailess Tsalala raising Mhangenis and Tsalalas, both females where not their mothers, but they left and raise them, but didn't have cubs on their own.
My point is, in a pride, i dont think its that much relevant who is the mother of who.
Example, theres a pride of 3 females, they gave birth to 3 cubs, each has 1, all milk them together mixed, cubs grow past the age of milking and females stop lactating, they are now almost subs, they eat only meat. Now 1 cub/sub of x female dies, how does "nature" knows that this cub/sub is of that specific female, to bring her back into estrus??
(08-13-2022, 10:22 AM)Tonpa Wrote: If Tinya was in oestrus she'd be doing the same thing the older female and Big boys sister did, seeking out males to mate with. Doesn't really make sense for Tinya herself to be on a "mission" while the other two ignore it...
I said she should be, but its not only Tinya, all Mhangeni females "should" be in estrus since around OM death and they lost all their cubs, except that cubs mom, but yet only 1 female decided to move and mate with PC males.
I think only Big Boy's sister was few times seen mating with NK, but that was more then half a year ago.
Basically all other 4 females decided to ignore males for mating and defend the cub, they where seen in company of Wide-Nose Ndhzengas while ago and in their territory, but they didnt mate with him yet abandon him and Ndhzengas and protect the cub.
This is hard to explain, but, even if some females are not directly mothers of specific cub, being in the same group, their brain prob "tricks" them into thinking that they need to protect the cub as if its their offspring, and prob because of that, they dont go in estrus cycles.
Same thing prob is happening with Kambula childcare group, as that 1 female lost her cubs, but its still with her sister and their cubs.
Also, if we go into past, BB and Tailess Tsalala raising Mhangenis and Tsalalas, both females where not their mothers, but they left and raise them, but didn't have cubs on their own.
My point is, in a pride, i dont think its that much relevant who is the mother of who.
Example, theres a pride of 3 females, they gave birth to 3 cubs, each has 1, all milk them together mixed, cubs grow past the age of milking and females stop lactating, they are now almost subs, they eat only meat. Now 1 cub/sub of x female dies, how does "nature" knows that this cub/sub is of that specific female, to bring her back into estrus??
That sounds more like wild dogs than lions to be honest, in Wild Dogs only one female (occasionally two) mates while all the other females do not.
Is this phenomenon a theory or something observed? lions have definitely been studied long enough for such a thing to have been observed and recorded by researchers at this point.
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08-13-2022, 01:22 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2022, 01:24 PM by Bellateda )
I guess they all nursed that cub and their organisms think they are her mothers. Anyway, this sub is around 16 months old, most lions went back to breeding when their cubs are 18-23 months. Soon they will be ready for mating.
Or maybe this sub can simply run away and hide in presence of males?
08-13-2022, 02:51 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2022, 03:01 PM by Tr1x24 )
(08-13-2022, 01:20 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Is this phenomenon a theory or something observed? lions have definitely been studied long enough for such a thing to have been observed and recorded by researchers at this point.
What exactly?
All females in a pride nurse all the cubs, regardless if its their or not, they dont favore their offspring by any means, they will protect all offspring the same way, so in a way, females eventually prob dont know which cubs are even theirs, this is well known and observed.
Based of this, again, my question is, how does "nature" know that when, lets say 1 - 1.5 cub/sub dies, that specifically mother of a cub/sub should go back to estrus? It cant know..
Females are going back to estrus after period of nursing + period of "caring" (hunting for them), which usually to about 2 yrs of age (sometimes more, sometimes less). So if theres still cubs/subs in that period, even if some lioness loses, specifically her offspring, her brain is already "programmed" to raise all those cubs as if they are their own (im talking about the phase when cubs are already established in the pride, "denning" phase is different, if she lose then cubs, ofc she will be back in estrus immiditately).
Estrus cycless are more complex then we think, its not just "this lioness lost her cub/sub, she is back in estrus", it has to do something with the "brain" of that specific female and how she "perceives" situation, if she is "programmed" to take care of, and raise the cubs, even if its not theirs, she will do that and wont get back to estrus.
Thats my thinking, because there is no other explanation, why some females dont get back to estrus, when they should.
(08-13-2022, 01:20 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Is this phenomenon a theory or something observed? lions have definitely been studied long enough for such a thing to have been observed and recorded by researchers at this point.
Thats my thinking, because there is no other explanation, why some females dont get back to estrus, when they should.
Fair enough. It's definitely an interesting occurrence.
