There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(05-01-2019, 12:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It was the earliest form of the Sunda tiger
earliest is Panthera tigris trinilensis. right? dating from about 1.2 million years ago that was found at the locality of Trinil, Java, Indonesia. oxygnatha is intermdiate of solenensis and trinil.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Trinil tiger was the oldest form of a tiger that lived 1.66 million years ago in Indonesia, particularly in Java and Trinil, although according to some zoologists, it could be the ancestor of all known Indonesian subspecies. Perhaps, East Asia was a center of the origin of Pantherinae. The oldest tiger fossils found in the Early Pleistocene Javanese show that about two million years ago, tigers were already quite common in East Asia. However, the glacial and interglacial climatic variations and other geological events may have caused repeated geographic changes in the area.
Brongersma, Leo (1937). "Notes on fossil and prehistoric remains of "Felidae" from Java and Sumatra"; Eugène Dubois (1908). "Das geologische Alter der Kendengoder Trinil-Fauna"
However there were doubts that the fossil could belong to the Trinil tiger because it was too big to belong to it. But now it is thought that it might have been a bit smaller than the Bengal tigers and similar to the Indochinese tiger's size. Food competition among large carnivores is a major incentive to increase body weight, so that this Pleistocene subspecies's weight was slightly less than today's Bengal tigers and weighed about 150 kg.
Leo Daniel Brongersma (1935). "Notes on some recent and fossil cats, chiefly from the Malay Archipelago"; Helmut Hemmer (1971). "Fossil mammals of Java. II. Zur Fossilgeschichte des Tigers (Panthera tigris (L.)) in Java".
In my reminiscent memory, wasn't Oxygnatha older than Trinilensis? Since Trinilensis was the immediate predecessor of Soloensis.
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
05-04-2019, 03:05 PM( This post was last modified: 05-04-2019, 03:07 PM by Arctotherium )
[quote='Shadow' pid='81433' dateline='1556956312']
One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
05-04-2019, 03:29 PM( This post was last modified: 05-04-2019, 03:30 PM by Shadow )
(05-04-2019, 03:09 PM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 03:05 PM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
Ok. I try to explain this to you in simple way. When I put here a research about A m e r i c a n lion and you quote it and put some links, why do you put two links about C a v e lions, which are different species.
But what comes to your link, that third one, about A m e r i c a n lions... Are you trying to say something with it? I ask this because you quoted my posting and I don´t see what is your point? What are you trying to say?
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
Well, when you quoted 2 times my message, I thought that you had something to say, but you shared just same links, which you have shared already many times before and there was nothing new in those. Btw that only link where american lions was mentioned, what comes to those 3 links. It gave quite same estimations about average american lion weight as that study I shared. Around 200-250 kg.
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
Well, when you quoted 2 times my message, I thought that you had something to say, but you shared just same links, which you have shared already many times before and there was nothing new in those. Btw that only link where american lions was mentioned, what comes to those 3 links. It gave quite same estimations about average american lion weight as that study I shared. Around 200-250 kg.
I gived you 2017 link(s).But my opinion is living.Largest American Lions can up to 600 kg
(05-04-2019, 12:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: One study about American lions.
Quote: Body Mass
Calculations of body mass were performed as specified in the methods. Results differ by method and by element (Table 5B). Van Valkenburgh’s (1990) regression of m1 APD on body mass appears to be the most reliable, as it most closely approximates the average of all methods. Overall, the smallest body mass value for female Panthera atrox is 89 kg and the largest is 262 kg; male values are 156 kg and 457 kg. The overall average is 177 kg for females and 247 kg for males. Males are thus estimated to be 1.40 times larger than females. We determined a mean weight of 178 kg for wild P. leo males and 141 kg for females using recent data from Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) and established values from the body mass literature (Van Valkenburgh, 1990) as shown in Table 5B. The average determination using these methods yields extant males 1.26 times larger than females. As the underlying measurements are significantly different between sexes, it is no surprise that the calculated body weights for P. atrox are also significantly different between sexes (ANOVA p<.0001 in each case), as shown in the bivariate plot of body mass estimates in Figure 4.
Well, when you quoted 2 times my message, I thought that you had something to say, but you shared just same links, which you have shared already many times before and there was nothing new in those. Btw that only link where american lions was mentioned, what comes to those 3 links. It gave quite same estimations about average american lion weight as that study I shared. Around 200-250 kg.
I gived you 2017 link(s).But my opinion is living.Largest American Lions can up to 600 kg
So now it is again largest American lion up to 600 kg.... ok. I don´t mind, you are free to believe anything you want naturally, but when writing here it would be nice to see some reliable source backing up that too. I could write here, that I believe that some extinct wolf was 300 kg... but what is the point to do something without anything to back up such claim? That is my problem with you here now, you make claims but you have nothing to back up what you claim. You just mix species and weights and everything and change figures all the time. So if you are not a troll, take your time to study the subject. If you put sources, tell what is there such, what you see important as some kind of proof for your claim.
About #1076: Agree with you... 25% larger than the modern lions is a pretty vague assertion. But if this increase is affected into the three dimensions, (1,25)exp 3 = 1,95 (1,953125 exactly)
So with a normal male lion, 200 kilos, we get 390 kilos for the American lion. With a big lion, 220 kilos, 430 kilos...
But they also mention a 523 kilos estimation. With this method we get this weight from an actual 270-kilos lion. I don't know what to think about it and believe it's a little bit overrated.
A 600-kilos big cat ? The most biggest lion ever caught in wild weighed 313 kilos. From this exceptional specimen we get a 610-kilos American lion. We are allowed to dream...
This is for all the posters in this conversation.
The estimation of 25% larger came probably from the size of the body, not the weight, as the first reports of it came only from comparison of fossils and until 1993 there was no weight estimation in any document. So using weights is incorrect.
Wikipedia is not reliable in this case, the simple reason is that the "guy" that put that quote just copy-paste that part about the weight of Panthera atroxand did not made any effort to check the source of that estimation. In fact, the article that he quotes as a source of the 523 kg (Implications of Diet for the Extinction of Saber-Toothed Cats and American Lions) did not make ANY weight calculation, in fact they are just quoting the old figures from Anyonge from 1993:
*This image is copyright of its original author
It is well known that the figures from Anyonge are overestimations and are not reliable, so there is NO American "lion" of over 500 kg, that is for sure. Sadly, NOBODY had correct this in Wikipedia, I tried but it was reverted, I put the reason why and it was erased, so it seems that a "fan" is taking control of that page. At least they had updated the fact that this great cats are not "lions - leo" but a species of its own, altough related with modern lions.
Now, what happen with the other source, can you ask? Well, lets check:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Simple, it just a list of animals in the area, there is no weight estimations on it.
So this is how the myths started, this is how missinfomation begins. A "guy" from Wikipedia edited what he want to believe and then many other people in internet start copy-paste that without taking the time of read and research the papers that they use.
At 2019, the heaviest/newest estimation for Panthera atrox remain to be 351 kg (Christiansen & Harris, 2009), maybe up to 370 kg using the largest specimen available from California. There is other estimation from other paper also from 2009 of over 470 kg, and althoug they used the formulas of Christiansen & Harris (2005), they only used the length and the circunference and the results are not "weighted", interestingly the results of that study was that the heaviest Panthera atrox was of less than 340 kg, using all the formulas available together. Panthera spelaea fossilis is bigger in the skull department, and although there is an estimation of almoust 370 kg in a previous study (using dentition), I do believe that is a perfect candidate for a cat of 400 kg, and this point of view is supported by Dr Helmut Hemmer in his document "The story of the cave lion - Panthera Leo Spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) - A review".
It is interesting that the body dimentions of the biggest liger actually measured by Guinness and the largest Panthera atrox/spelaea-fossilis match each other, but the weigth of 418 kg of "Hercules" is from its fat (they say that is not obese, but we can see it is), so is logical to conclude that a meager similar sized cat will weight less.
About #1076: Agree with you... 25% larger than the modern lions is a pretty vague assertion. But if this increase is affected into the three dimensions, (1,25)exp 3 = 1,95 (1,953125 exactly)
So with a normal male lion, 200 kilos, we get 390 kilos for the American lion. With a big lion, 220 kilos, 430 kilos...
But they also mention a 523 kilos estimation. With this method we get this weight from an actual 270-kilos lion. I don't know what to think about it and believe it's a little bit overrated.
A 600-kilos big cat ? The most biggest lion ever caught in wild weighed 313 kilos. From this exceptional specimen we get a 610-kilos American lion. We are allowed to dream...
This is for all the posters in this conversation.
The estimation of 25% larger came probably from the size of the body, not the weight, as the first reports of it came only from comparison of fossils and until 1993 there was no weight estimation in any document. So using weights is incorrect.
Wikipedia is not reliable in this case, the simple reason is that the "guy" that put that quote just copy-paste that part about the weight of Panthera atroxand did not made any effort to check the source of that estimation. In fact, the article that he quotes as a source of the 523 kg (Implications of Diet for the Extinction of Saber-Toothed Cats and American Lions) did not make ANY weight calculation, in fact they are just quoting the old figures from Anyonge from 1993:
*This image is copyright of its original author
It is well known that the figures from Anyonge are overestimations and are not reliable, so there is NO American "lion" of over 500 kg, that is for sure. Sadly, NOBODY had correct this in Wikipedia, I tried but it was reverted, I put the reason why and it was erased, so it seems that a "fan" is taking control of that page. At least they had updated the fact that this great cats are not "lions - leo" but a species of its own, altough related with modern lions.
Now, what happen with the other source, can you ask? Well, lets check:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Simple, it just a list of animals in the area, there is no weight estimations on it.
So this is how the myths started, this is how missinfomation begins. A "guy" from Wikipedia edited what he want to believe and then many other people in internet start copy-paste that without taking the time of read and research the papers that they use.
At 2019, the heaviest/newest estimation for Panthera atrox remain to be 351 kg (Christiansen & Harris, 2009), maybe up to 370 kg using the largest specimen available from California. There is other estimation from other paper also from 2009 of over 470 kg, and althoug they used the formulas of Christiansen & Harris (2005), they only used the length and the circunference and the results are not "weighted", interestingly the results of that study was that the heaviest Panthera atrox was of less than 340 kg, using all the formulas available together. Panthera spelaea fossilis is bigger in the skull department, and although there is an estimation of almoust 370 kg in a previous study (using dentition), I do believe that is a perfect candidate for a cat of 400 kg, and this point of view is supported by Dr Helmut Hemmer in his document "The story of the cave lion - Panthera Leo Spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810) - A review".
It is interesting that the body dimentions of the biggest liger actually measured by Guinness and the largest Panthera atrox/spelaea-fossilis match each other, but the weigth of 418 kg of "Hercules" is from its fat (they say that is not obese, but we can see it is), so is logical to conclude that a meager similar sized cat will weight less.
Did you know that these links are by no means a scientific study, correct?
Also, the blog is completelly incorrect, in the paper of Wheeler and Jefferson from 2009 they clearly explain that the high figures are based in just one single calculation and is the wide of the femur, ignoring the other factors, and as the calculation is incorrect, they used other formulas and at the end the average of all they calculation, with all the formulas, was a maximum weight of 332 kg, much less than the maximum of 351 kg calculated by Christiansen & Harris (2009). My suggestion to you is to read the original document and check the methods by your self, don't use random blogs like a primary reference.
And just in case that you don't want to follow my advise, here is the table from that original document:
*This image is copyright of its original author
As you can see, the figure of 478 kg, although generated from the formulas of Christiansen & Harris (2005), this is only one calculation and they used several to calculate the weight. Check that using only the length formula, also from them, the weight drop to only 271 kg! The average of the two produce a figure of 374.5 kg, very big but there is the other problem that the results are not "weighted", something that Christiansen and Harris suggested to do.
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
dating from about 1.2 million years ago that was found at the locality of 
