Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines

[Sanju]

(01-26-2019, 12:31 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(01-25-2019, 04:31 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(12-25-2018, 08:09 AM)tigerluver Wrote: This month a paper describing cat species from a cenote in Mexico described a new species termed Panthera balamoides. The paper is attached.

*This image is copyright of its original author

What does everyone think? Distal humeri have a lot of intraspecific varation, and the authors acknowledge the issue, but still believe the new fossil is from a unique species. Could a third, previously undiscovered species exist alongside at least three other cats (P. atrox, P. onca, Smilodon) or is it more likely this new specimen is just another P. onca or P. atrox found in the same locality?

I saw this few days back in the internet and I believe that a third unique cat lived in America. BTW in comparison between javan leopard and cougar, the humeri of leopard is larger than puma though javan leopards are not that big than others subs of leopards...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08912963.2018.1556649?journalCode=ghbi20

It would intriguing if the leopard group also managed to migrate to the prehistoric America, which would make them as widespread as the lions in the prehistoric era.

In the modern era, the leopard is by far the most widespread cat.

I think even leopard made up to that continent, humeri bones are very huge even comparison with the tiger too! So with that type of competition around, I suspect it happened. It can be also a cat separated from other lineage and evolved solely and uniquely specialized to the American environment. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

A Panthera leo atrox (American lion) skull from the wonderful Fossil Collection @MuseumofNature . This skull is from the Yukon and dated at 25,000 years. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(12-25-2018, 08:09 AM)tigerluver Wrote: This month a paper describing cat species from a cenote in Mexico described a new species termed Panthera balamoides. The paper is attached.

*This image is copyright of its original author

What does everyone think? Distal humeri have a lot of intraspecific varation, and the authors acknowledge the issue, but still believe the new fossil is from a unique species. Could a third, previously undiscovered species exist alongside at least three other cats (P. atrox, P. onca, Smilodon) or is it more likely this new specimen is just another P. onca or P. atrox found in the same locality?

 Well, it may not a feline, but a bear, because of the femur type, check these pictures
 

*This image is copyright of its original author

polar bear femur

*This image is copyright of its original author

american black bear skeleton

*This image is copyright of its original author

andean bear skeleton

  The "Panthera balamodies'' may not a feline but more likely to be a American black bear or andean bear Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaws , @tigerluver , @brotherbear , Here is the true size comparison, from left to right are Amur tiger(Panthera tigers alatica), American lion(Panthera atrox) and Smilodon populator, both of them are the biggest  individual size.
 The Amur tiger's maximum size could up to 125cm tall and 350kg weight in history, while the American lion's maximum size could up to 135cm tall and 400kg＋，Smilodon pupulator's maximum size could up to 125cm tall and 400kg＋，based on the picture Reply

[tigerluver]

(02-04-2019, 09:41 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

(12-25-2018, 08:09 AM)tigerluver Wrote: This month a paper describing cat species from a cenote in Mexico described a new species termed Panthera balamoides. The paper is attached.

*This image is copyright of its original author

What does everyone think? Distal humeri have a lot of intraspecific varation, and the authors acknowledge the issue, but still believe the new fossil is from a unique species. Could a third, previously undiscovered species exist alongside at least three other cats (P. atrox, P. onca, Smilodon) or is it more likely this new specimen is just another P. onca or P. atrox found in the same locality?

 Well, it may not a feline, but a bear, because of the femur type, check these pictures
 

*This image is copyright of its original author

polar bear femur

*This image is copyright of its original author

american black bear skeleton

*This image is copyright of its original author

andean bear skeleton

  The "Panthera balamodies'' may not a feline but more likely to be a American black bear or andean bear

Just a correction, the P. balamoides fossil is a distal humerus, not a femur. Nonetheless good eye regarding the possibility of the specimen being from a completely different genus. Reply

[smedz]

I went ahead and made a thread dedicated to the Ngandong tiger, so if anyone here has any interesting info, you can post it there. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(02-08-2019, 11:56 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
@GrizzlyClaws , @tigerluver , @brotherbear , Here is the true size comparison, from left to right are Amur tiger(Panthera tigers alatica), American lion(Panthera atrox) and Smilodon populator, both of them are the biggest  individual size.
 The Amur tiger's maximum size could up to 125cm tall and 350kg weight in history, while the American lion's maximum size could up to 135cm tall and 400kg＋，Smilodon pupulator's maximum size could up to 125cm tall and 400kg＋，based on the picture

Good comparison my friend. About the tiger, I think that the size that you show is more in line with the Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) which may weighed about 370 kg. The American "lion" Panthera atrox was slightly shorter (about 125 cm according with Turner & Anton) and about the same weight than the tiger (350-370 kg depending of the sources). Smilodon populator was of the same shoulder height (120 cm) but is the heaviest of the three, with a calculated mass of 400 kg in the bigger individuals. Reply

[Sanju]

What's the new body mass estimate of Ngandong Tiger (So-called "possibly" big felid of all time) on average and at max according to modern studies??? Reply

[Arctotherium]

(04-15-2019, 11:25 AM)Sanju Wrote: What's the new body mass estimate of Ngandong Tiger on average and at max according to modern studies???

Ngandong Tiger(Panthera Tigris Soloensis)
Average=368 kg
Maximum=400 kg Reply

[GuateGojira]

(04-15-2019, 11:25 AM)Sanju Wrote: What's the new body mass estimate of Ngandong Tiger (So-called "possibly" big felid on all time) on average and at max according to modern studies???

Well, actually there are only two "official" estimations published. One is the "up to 470 kg" from Hertler and Volmer in 2008, but it was using the formula of Anyonge (1993) and produce high overestimations for cats. The other is a resent figure of "up to 298 kg" also from Hertler and Volver from a document that use the formula of Christiansen and Harris of 2005. However the problem is that they only used the formula of the "length of the femur" and not also its circunference, and based in the results obtained using femurs of Smilodon, the femur-based weights are amoung the lower ones, so they are not very reliable alone (also they don't "weighted" the results).

So, no "official" figure for the moment. I still stay with my personal calculation of about 370 kg, which is realistic from my point of view, but other experts may/will disagree. Reply

[Sanju]

(04-15-2019, 09:28 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I still stay with my personal calculation of about 370 kg, which is realistic from my point of view, but other experts may/will disagree.

I too adhere to the same weight coz it looks plausible based on fossil bones sizes and dimensions. "My view" is that on avg, their weight could be about 300 - 350 kg but the maximum body mass would likely be about (around) 400 kg (presuming the availability of mega fauna, insular gigantism, hybridization at spp level b/w oxygnatha and acutidens and pristine environment unaffected by humans).

What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?

*This image is copyright of its original author

Whom do you think the biggest felid of all time then ? Reply

[GuateGojira]

(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?

For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.

For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.

For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.

The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed. Reply

[Sanju]

Wow ! Thanks for the data @GuateGojira 

Sadly, we dunno the body mass of ceylon lion (sinhaleyus) but I assume that would be about 300 kg too coz it is a early Pleistocene lion spp (ancestor to leo "fossilis") as well as intermediate b/w modern day lions spps and stem lion sps.

What do you think his weight may be?

Also do you have data about Panthera pardus spelaea mass ? It's certainly larger on avg when compared to modern leopard spps. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(04-15-2019, 10:37 PM)Sanju Wrote: Sadly, we dunno the body mass of ceylon lion (sinhaleyus) but I assume that would be about 300 kg too coz it is a early Pleistocene lion spp (ancestor to leo "fossilis") as well as intermediate b/w modern day lions spps and stem lion sps.

What do you think his weight may be?

Also do you have data about Panthera pardus spelaea mass ? It's certainly larger on avg when compared to modern leopard spps.

As far I know, there are no long bones or skulls or any other fossil from the Sri Lanka lion, just a couple of canines and are no larger than a modern lion.

I have no data on the Pleistocene leopards, I have documents but I have not paid attention to its size in relation to modern leopards, I am sorry on this point. Reply

[Sanju]

(04-15-2019, 10:53 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I have no data on the Pleistocene leopards, I have documents but I have not paid attention to its size in relation to modern leopards, I am sorry on this point.

it's okay. Reply