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Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines

Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-16-2020, 02:54 AM by Shadow )

(05-15-2020, 11:38 PM)tigerluver Wrote: Wrong thread for modern cat discussion, folks. This is in the extinct felines section. It seems somewhere last year a few posts were misplaced here and since the original intention has been lost. I'll move some post over to more appropriate threads. 

On a side note, 250 kg is small for an ancient lion, machairodont, or tiger, and thus the thread was called "freak felids" for the 400+ kg specimens that once existed. I do realize that the term can easily be misinterpreted so we moved the discussions for ancient lions into a more dedicated thread. Unfortunately the data on the rest of the species isn't as plentiful so dedicated threads never were formed.

That explains a lot, I was looking at this thread and many postings really didn´t look to be in right place. Same goes with other "freak felids" thread, many photos of tigers and lions, but "freaks"... mostly not. I understand with freak something really extra special, not just some quite normal sized animal or obese animal. Those should be posted in "normal threads" for wild and captive animals of different species. When I open posting with headline "freak", I am looking forward to see something extraordinary which also is explained, that in what way "freak". If all there is, is some photo showing "just" some random lion or tiger....it doesn´t make sense for me. Most postings in "freak" threads have been frankly speaking disappointing. 

In threads made for something extraordinary quality should be more valued than quantity. Not just some random photo or average specimen of some species. Then again maybe I´m a bit more cynical than average poster... But still something to think about, imo. Word "freak" loses meaning if it starts to look like it, that all tigers and lions are freaks. We have after all many threads for handsome/beautiful animals. I had to use this opportunity to write this now, I have often thought about this but kept silent. But I think, that some others would also like it more, if content would be really connected to headline of a thread.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Velizar Simeonovski

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.

"Panthera gombaszoegensis.

The skull is based on the cranial remains from Vallparadís and Amblève valle but because of their fragmentary characters it is adjusted to fit the mandible- based on the Mosbach specimen.


The pattern of the head is inferred from the the patterns of the cubs of lions and Panthera pardus orientalis ."

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.



Body pattern - reflects the process of increasing the size .- based on the pattern of lion cubs and Amur leopards. Increasing the size - from mid size (jaguar-sized) pantherine cat to a giant-lion size animal likely occurred in Africa - some time in the late Pliocene. Interestingly the same process somewhat "was attempted" in South America about 2 millions later but it did not get finalized



Pocock, R.I., 1910. - The significance of the pattern of the cubs of lion (Felis leo) and pumas (Felis concolor) Ann. Mag. Nat Hist. London. (7) 20 -1910 pp 436 – 445


Schneider, K-M., 1953. –Von der Fleckung junger Löwen. D.Zool.Gart. NF.Bd. 20. H. 2/3.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.



The mane - it is not clear when the ancestral lion began to grow mane . It is certainly connected with the size increasing, but the time line is unknown. It also likely happened in Africa.
Here the "ancestral" mane is inferred by the mane that some lionesses grow due to hormonal disbalance or old age. It is similar, but not identical to the manes that lion/tiger and lion/leopard hybrids develop.

*This image is copyright of its original author
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Canada Balam Offline
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(06-24-2020, 10:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Velizar Simeonovski

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.

"Panthera gombaszoegensis.

The skull is based on the cranial remains from Vallparadís and Amblève valle but because of their fragmentary characters it is adjusted to fit the mandible- based on the Mosbach specimen.


The pattern of the head is inferred from the the patterns of the cubs of lions and Panthera pardus orientalis ."

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.



Body pattern - reflects the process of increasing the size .- based on the pattern of lion cubs and Amur leopards. Increasing the size - from mid size (jaguar-sized) pantherine cat to a giant-lion size animal likely occurred in Africa - some time in the late Pliocene. Interestingly the same process somewhat "was attempted" in South America about 2 millions later but it did not get finalized



Pocock, R.I., 1910. - The significance of the pattern of the cubs of lion (Felis leo) and pumas (Felis concolor) Ann. Mag. Nat Hist. London. (7) 20 -1910 pp 436 – 445


Schneider, K-M., 1953. –Von der Fleckung junger Löwen. D.Zool.Gart. NF.Bd. 20. H. 2/3.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera gombaszoegensis - becoming a lion.



The mane - it is not clear when the ancestral lion began to grow mane . It is certainly connected with the size increasing, but the time line is unknown. It also likely happened in Africa.
Here the "ancestral" mane is inferred by the mane that some lionesses grow due to hormonal disbalance or old age. It is similar, but not identical to the manes that lion/tiger and lion/leopard hybrids develop.

*This image is copyright of its original author

I'm guessing this reconstruction is based on a conceptual idea of P. gombaszoegensis being closer to the lion clade than the jaguar. As far as I'm aware there's no recent data to suggest they were lions.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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" The tiger may be more ancient and distinct than we thought ?

Tigers are less closely related to lions, leopards and jaguars than these other big cats are to each other, according to a new comprehensive study.
The genetic analysis also reveals the tiger began evolving 3.2 million years ago, and its closest living relative is the equally endangered snow leopard.
Despite the popularity and endangered status of tigers, much remains to be discovered about them, including how they evolved.
It has long been known that the five species of big cat - the tiger, lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard, which belong to the Panthera genus - and the two species of clouded leopard are more closely related to each other than to other smaller cats.
But it has been difficult to pin down the exact relationships between them.
So to find out more, scientists Mr Brian Davis, Dr Gang Li and Professor William Murphy conducted an analysis of the DNA of all these species.
Their data strongly suggests that lions, leopards and jaguars are most closely related to each other.
Their ancestor split from other cats around 4.3 to 3.8 million years ago.
About 3.6 to 2.5 million years ago, the jaguar began to evolve, while lions and leopards split from one other about 3.1 to 1.95 million years ago.
But the tiger had already emerged by this point.
The ancestor of tigers and snow leopards also branched off around 3.9 million years ago.
The tiger then began to evolve into a unique species toward the end of the Pliocene epoch, about 3.2 mya. "


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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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(09-13-2020, 02:46 AM)Spalea Wrote: " The tiger may be more ancient and distinct than we thought ?

Tigers are less closely related to lions, leopards and jaguars than these other big cats are to each other, according to a new comprehensive study.
The genetic analysis also reveals the tiger began evolving 3.2 million years ago, and its closest living relative is the equally endangered snow leopard.
Despite the popularity and endangered status of tigers, much remains to be discovered about them, including how they evolved.
It has long been known that the five species of big cat - the tiger, lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard, which belong to the Panthera genus - and the two species of clouded leopard are more closely related to each other than to other smaller cats.
But it has been difficult to pin down the exact relationships between them.
So to find out more, scientists Mr Brian Davis, Dr Gang Li and Professor William Murphy conducted an analysis of the DNA of all these species.
Their data strongly suggests that lions, leopards and jaguars are most closely related to each other.
Their ancestor split from other cats around 4.3 to 3.8 million years ago.
About 3.6 to 2.5 million years ago, the jaguar began to evolve, while lions and leopards split from one other about 3.1 to 1.95 million years ago.
But the tiger had already emerged by this point.
The ancestor of tigers and snow leopards also branched off around 3.9 million years ago.
The tiger then began to evolve into a unique species toward the end of the Pliocene epoch, about 3.2 mya. "




Is this really new? I feel like I've read this before right here on wildfact.
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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(09-13-2020, 06:29 AM)Sully Wrote:
(09-13-2020, 02:46 AM)Spalea Wrote: " The tiger may be more ancient and distinct than we thought ?

Tigers are less closely related to lions, leopards and jaguars than these other big cats are to each other, according to a new comprehensive study.
The genetic analysis also reveals the tiger began evolving 3.2 million years ago, and its closest living relative is the equally endangered snow leopard.
Despite the popularity and endangered status of tigers, much remains to be discovered about them, including how they evolved.
It has long been known that the five species of big cat - the tiger, lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard, which belong to the Panthera genus - and the two species of clouded leopard are more closely related to each other than to other smaller cats.
But it has been difficult to pin down the exact relationships between them.
So to find out more, scientists Mr Brian Davis, Dr Gang Li and Professor William Murphy conducted an analysis of the DNA of all these species.
Their data strongly suggests that lions, leopards and jaguars are most closely related to each other.
Their ancestor split from other cats around 4.3 to 3.8 million years ago.
About 3.6 to 2.5 million years ago, the jaguar began to evolve, while lions and leopards split from one other about 3.1 to 1.95 million years ago.
But the tiger had already emerged by this point.
The ancestor of tigers and snow leopards also branched off around 3.9 million years ago.
The tiger then began to evolve into a unique species toward the end of the Pliocene epoch, about 3.2 mya. "




Is this really new? I feel like I've read this before right here on wildfact.

The paleontologyworld post isn't perhaps a new one, but I don't remind having seen it before. I remember having read (and posted too) an other more detailed account about the recent tiger's history within a shorter interval of time (the last 100.000 years I believe).

See link:

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-bigcats...2#pid61330

At #1448 and #1451
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