There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Thank you very much for your reply. It is tiger canine! I thought it is the upper canine, but seems not like at crown's radian.
But, by your pictures, I believe this is the lower canine of tiger.
How the body size this tiger?
Can estimate this skull length or body size by this crown length to compare with known data between crown and skull?
The Amur tiger canine in set of four that I showed you got 126 mm for upper and 110 mm for lower.
So the upper canine of your specimen should be around 130 mm, and it must belong to a 400 mm skull which was mostly like an adult male.
The specimen should live in a transitional period between the late Pleistocene and early Holocene based on its fossil coloration. So its stature could be somewhat more robust built than its modern counterparts.
Here is an even larger specimen that lived in a contemporary timeline with its lower canine being close to 130 mm.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Maybe the Amur tigers that lived 10,000 years ago got 400 mm skull for those average males, and over 450 mm for those exceptional specimens.
@GrizzlyClaws
Thank you .
1.400mm is giant in my imagining. It's size exceeded my expectations.
2.Amazing mandible. This specimen and that canine in your photo are almost same.
Thank you for your help! Is the site like this? I am looking forward your reply
About this lower canine measurements:
AP diameter is 30.66~31.00 mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
lateromedially (LM) diameter is 21.54mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(inside) is 53.13mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(outside) is 52.50mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(apex to central of the AP diameter) is 51.44mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
---------------------------------------
PS. crown height (central of the alveolar margin to the apex) is 46.03mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
Perfect, thank you! So I'll go through the important aspects of this beautiful specimen.
Bone classification:
As @GrizzlyClaws noted, this is a lower canine. The height of the crown enamel of the lower canine is quite a bit shorter than that of the upper canine. Here we see the relatively short crown and thus this is a lower canine.
Identity:
This is the hardest part in analyzing felid dentitions from the northern part of China and eastern Russia. I'll split this up to support for P. spelaea classification and P. tigris classification.
Support for P. spelaea:
The preservation is similar to that of Siberian peatland P. spelaea finds such as this skull and this lower canine:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Specifically, note the color preservation on the teeth, it's similar to what you have in this canine. If the locality of the canine is uncertain it is very possible it came from Siberia and thus is cave lion.
Next, the root of the canine. Often, ancient lion lower canines have thin roots. However, it is not impossible for them to have thick roots as seen in this European cave lion specimen. This is essentially not strong evidence for P. spelaea classification but rather evidence against ruling out P. spelaea as the owner. I made this very crude comparison in gimp with the canines scaled to about the same height.:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Support for P. tigris:
Referring back to the above image, it is more common for tigers to have wide roots than cave lions. Thus, probability-wise more likely to be a tiger.
The canine is actually quite tall. From the big cat family, tigers have disproportionately tall and often similarly wide canines. At 112.74 mm high and 31 m x 21 mm in diameter, the canine is larger than the largest P. atrox. So either the canine is from an exceptional cave lion or large tiger. By probability, it's more likely to be a large tiger than a one in thousands cave lion.
Finally, the coloration and preservation of the canine actually matches quite well with this Szechuan giant tiger skull. Focus on the patterns and coloration of the teeth and compare it to the enamel of the canine we are discussing:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The preservation is very similar to your canine.
So all in all, confusing information from the morphology. Next, we need to see if the locality gives as any clues.
Locality:
So the reason I transition to locality now is to discuss the sediment the specimen may have been found in. The reason the Siberian cave lion skull and Szechuan tiger skull have similar preservations is that they were likely preserved in peatlands. Note this map from Zhao et al. (2013):
*This image is copyright of its original author
You noted the canine is from northeast China, correct? Looking at this map, northeast China is filled with peatland. As such, we have a peat-stained canine.
If the locality is correct, then we have ~10,000 year old (+/- 5,000 years) fossil from northeast China. The more specifically you could point out the location the more specific we could have an age ideally. Probability-wise, it's more likely to be a bit younger than 10 kya looking at the map and the fact that miners usually find fossils closer to the surface.
The reason this dating is important in identification is that per Stuart and Lister (2010), the cave lion disappeared from Siberia around 14 kya (14,000 years) and from Yukon around 11 kya. The majority of northeast China peatlands are younger than this age. Therefore, if the canine is 10 kya or younger, chronology indicates it is of a tiger.
Size:
Finally, we can estimate the size. If we classify this canine as that of a tiger, I'll use my Amur tiger database for the estimation (average skull length 345 mm, average AP diameter canine 27 mm). Using the AP diameter of 31 mm, we get a skull length of around ~396 mm (383 mm-403 mm range). This would be a large tiger by modern standards as the largest skull measured by Mazak was 383 mm and the largest he read of 406 mm. By isometry, such a specimen should weigh around 260 kg give or take.
Thank you for this detail reply and size comparison. I read this many times, this is a wonderful argument include species, date, and size. Your reply answered my doubts, I thought it is brown bear upper canine.
You are precisely, this specimen seems come from a marsh, maybe there is peat like you said(peat moss?). It's a pity that I do not know detail area where it found, I will try survey. But, I'm sure it not from eastern Russia or Siberia. By peat estimate, this is younger more than I thought. It is a young and big tiger fossil! (I thought it is upper canine, then it will belong to a small individual if it is tiger canine....)
A small question, why you want me to measure the AP diameter you marked yellow line in rough area rather than the demarcation line between smooth enamel and rough non-enamel area?
Thank you for your help! Is the site like this? I am looking forward your reply
About this lower canine measurements:
AP diameter is 30.66~31.00 mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
lateromedially (LM) diameter is 21.54mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(inside) is 53.13mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(outside) is 52.50mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
in situ crown height(apex to central of the AP diameter) is 51.44mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
---------------------------------------
PS. crown height (central of the alveolar margin to the apex) is 46.03mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
Perfect, thank you! So I'll go through the important aspects of this beautiful specimen.
Bone classification:
As @GrizzlyClaws noted, this is a lower canine. The height of the crown enamel of the lower canine is quite a bit shorter than that of the upper canine. Here we see the relatively short crown and thus this is a lower canine.
Identity:
This is the hardest part in analyzing felid dentitions from the northern part of China and eastern Russia. I'll split this up to support for P. spelaea classification and P. tigris classification.
Support for P. spelaea:
The preservation is similar to that of Siberian peatland P. spelaea finds such as this skull and this lower canine:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Specifically, note the color preservation on the teeth, it's similar to what you have in this canine. If the locality of the canine is uncertain it is very possible it came from Siberia and thus is cave lion.
Next, the root of the canine. Often, ancient lion lower canines have thin roots. However, it is not impossible for them to have thick roots as seen in this European cave lion specimen. This is essentially not strong evidence for P. spelaea classification but rather evidence against ruling out P. spelaea as the owner. I made this very crude comparison in gimp with the canines scaled to about the same height.:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Support for P. tigris:
Referring back to the above image, it is more common for tigers to have wide roots than cave lions. Thus, probability-wise more likely to be a tiger.
The canine is actually quite tall. From the big cat family, tigers have disproportionately tall and often similarly wide canines. At 112.74 mm high and 31 m x 21 mm in diameter, the canine is larger than the largest P. atrox. So either the canine is from an exceptional cave lion or large tiger. By probability, it's more likely to be a large tiger than a one in thousands cave lion.
Finally, the coloration and preservation of the canine actually matches quite well with this Szechuan giant tiger skull. Focus on the patterns and coloration of the teeth and compare it to the enamel of the canine we are discussing:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The preservation is very similar to your canine.
So all in all, confusing information from the morphology. Next, we need to see if the locality gives as any clues.
Locality:
So the reason I transition to locality now is to discuss the sediment the specimen may have been found in. The reason the Siberian cave lion skull and Szechuan tiger skull have similar preservations is that they were likely preserved in peatlands. Note this map from Zhao et al. (2013):
*This image is copyright of its original author
You noted the canine is from northeast China, correct? Looking at this map, northeast China is filled with peatland. As such, we have a peat-stained canine.
If the locality is correct, then we have ~10,000 year old (+/- 5,000 years) fossil from northeast China. The more specifically you could point out the location the more specific we could have an age ideally. Probability-wise, it's more likely to be a bit younger than 10 kya looking at the map and the fact that miners usually find fossils closer to the surface.
The reason this dating is important in identification is that per Stuart and Lister (2010), the cave lion disappeared from Siberia around 14 kya (14,000 years) and from Yukon around 11 kya. The majority of northeast China peatlands are younger than this age. Therefore, if the canine is 10 kya or younger, chronology indicates it is of a tiger.
Size:
Finally, we can estimate the size. If we classify this canine as that of a tiger, I'll use my Amur tiger database for the estimation (average skull length 345 mm, average AP diameter canine 27 mm). Using the AP diameter of 31 mm, we get a skull length of around ~396 mm (383 mm-403 mm range). This would be a large tiger by modern standards as the largest skull measured by Mazak was 383 mm and the largest he read of 406 mm. By isometry, such a specimen should weigh around 260 kg give or take.
Thank you for this detail reply and size comparison. I read this many times, this is a wonderful argument include species, date, and size. Your reply answered my doubts, I thought it is brown bear upper canine.
You are precisely, this specimen seems come from a marsh, maybe there is peat like you said(peat moss?). It's a pity that I do not know detail area where it found, I will try survey. But, I'm sure it not from eastern Russia or Siberia. By peat estimate, this is younger more than I thought. It is a young and big tiger fossil! (I thought it is upper canine, then it will belong to a small individual if it is tiger canine....)
A small question, why you want me to measure the AP diameter you marked yellow line in rough area rather than the demarcation line between smooth enamel and rough non-enamel area?
Hope you are able to find out more of the locality. There may be more tiger fossils to be found from those sites. I keep in tabs with a Siberian site but the fossils preserve a darker and duller brown as compared to these northeast China fossils.
So I asked for the measurement there as it is the measurement at the alveoli. If one looks at tiger mandibles, the canine diameter at the alveoli is somewhat below the enamel.:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I measured my skulls in this manner so I needed that measurement for a more accurate estimate.
Thank you very much for your reply. It is tiger canine! I thought it is the upper canine, but seems not like at crown's radian.
But, by your pictures, I believe this is the lower canine of tiger.
How the body size this tiger?
Can estimate this skull length or body size by this crown length to compare with known data between crown and skull?
The Amur tiger canine in set of four that I showed you got 126 mm for upper and 110 mm for lower.
So the upper canine of your specimen should be around 130 mm, and it must belong to a 400 mm skull which was mostly like an adult male.
The specimen should live in a transitional period between the late Pleistocene and early Holocene based on its fossil coloration. So its stature could be somewhat more robust built than its modern counterparts.
Here is an even larger specimen that lived in a contemporary timeline with its lower canine being close to 130 mm.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Maybe the Amur tigers that lived 10,000 years ago got 400 mm skull for those average males, and over 450 mm for those exceptional specimens.
@GrizzlyClaws
Thank you .
1.400mm is giant in my imagining. It's size exceeded my expectations.
2.Amazing mandible. This specimen and that canine in your photo are almost same.
I keep in tabs with a Siberian site but the fossils preserve a darker and duller brown as compared to these northeast China fossils.
Maybe the peatlands from China contain more impurities, hence its fossils generally got less darker coloration.
Since the soil of Siberia is generally muddier in comparison, thus it could contain less harder substances, and therefore the peatlands over there are also more fertile.
I can imagine that those extremely dark fossils may be derived from the Siberian peatlands, and almost belonged to the Cave lions.
In contrast, the giant skull from Szechuan and the giant "Manchurian" mandible both got lighter hue, and it matches more with the geological conditions in China.
Nevertheless, Manchuria generally got younger peatlands than Siberia, but due it shares a similar geographical proximity, the peat-stained fossils from Manchuria often also got darker coloration. Since the northeastern part of China probably got the muddiest soil in the region.
That's why I have often suspected that the so-called "Manchurian" mandible's true locality was also from China proper, since it got almost the same coloration pattern as the giant skull from Szechuan.
The two specimens probably lived in a similar region, both most likely got a skull over 45 cm. And those giant tigers that lived in China proper during the Pleistocene-Holocene transitional period probably shared a genetic affiliation with the Manchurian branch of the Amur tiger.
06-29-2020, 03:20 PM( This post was last modified: 06-29-2020, 03:22 PM by Richardrli )
Do tigers have smaller eyes than lions? I know this sounds completely random but I vaguely remember reading something many years ago that indicated this was the case.
(06-29-2020, 03:20 PM)Richardrli Wrote: Do tigers have smaller eyes than lions? I know this sounds completely random but I vaguely remember reading something many years ago that indicated this was the case.
To me, both lion and tiger got the smallest eyes proportionally among the feline family.
Could this explain shiny black hue of the Kahayan mandible?
Very well could have similar preservation, nice catch! To my recollection, the Peace river fossils have lots of phosphate that give the fossils a black color. While I don't think there is official peatland in the area the Peace riverbed has been described at "peaty". Organic phosphate is an important part of organic sediments like peat.
Could this explain shiny black hue of the Kahayan mandible?
Very well could have similar preservation, nice catch! To my recollection, the Peace river fossils have lots of phosphate that give the fossils a black color. While I don't think there is official peatland in the area the Peace riverbed has been described at "peaty". Organic phosphate is an important part of organic sediments like peat.
Even the Szechuan giant skull was derived from the peatland, but it was stained with the brownish hue instead of the shiny black like those fossils from the bottom of the river.
Maybe the peatlands from the Central China was based on tough soil, not the muddy one from Siberia or at the bottom of the river?
The Szechuan province has mostly the mountainous areas, hence the peatlands over there may be tougher?
(06-26-2020, 10:41 AM)Panthera Wrote: A sharing of Panthera cf.tigris from Taiwan island
This is a Panthera (this is usually considered a tiger in Taiwan) from Chochen Fauna, Tainan, Southwest Taiwan, 0.96Ma-0.46Ma. The Following photos is from here. Earlier than the Toba eruption.
Location map link: Tainan, Taiwan
PS
(Where the tiger fossils were once found not only in Taiwan island's land itself, but also in seabed of Taiwan Straits between Penghu islands and Taiwan island(Penghu Channel) by fishing boat fishing work, but fossil in the site is younger than in Taiwan. The Radiometric dating age of other animals fossils from this Penghu fauna between 0.45-0.02 Ma.
Location map link: Penghu Chanel)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Additional photo. Same specimen. Is old type tiger like Wanhsien tiger before the Toba eruption because it is at least 0.4 Ma.
07-04-2020, 08:38 AM( This post was last modified: 07-04-2020, 09:07 AM by Panthera )
This is other tiger skull fossil from other site around Taiwan. This fossil found in seabed of Taiwan Straits, between Penghu islands and Taiwan island(where is called Penghu Channel), by fishing boat carried out fishing work, but this fossil in the site is younger than in Tainan, Taiwan. The Radiometric dating age of other animals fossils from this Penghu fauna between 0.45-0.02 Ma. Earlier or later than the Toba eruption
