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Skulls, Skeletons, Canines & Claws

Taiwan Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-16-2021, 08:54 AM by Panthera Edit Reason: find a misspelled )

I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....
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United States Pckts Offline
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(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....

This is the right place for it, unfortunately I don’t think there is many to gauge this off of although there may be some.

Tiger thread here
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-ngandong-tiger-panthera-tigris-soloensis
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-15-2021, 10:01 PM by tigerluver )

(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....


The largest Amur skull I measured had a P4 of 34 mm and length of 380 mm. This would make the skull length of this specimen no less than 406 mm and probably closer to 420 mm given the positive allometry in skull length and p4 size. Likely a specimen around 300 kg and body length of around 235 cm. Thanks for sharing!
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....


Based on the coloration, this one looks like a typical peatland specimen from the early Holocene in Manchuria.

Definitely an Amur tiger, since it was too young to be a Cave lion.
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Taiwan Panthera Offline
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(05-15-2021, 10:01 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....


The largest Amur skull I measured had a P4 of 34 mm and length of 380 mm. This would make the skull length of this specimen no less than 406 mm and probably closer to 420 mm given the positive allometry in skull length and p4 size. Likely a specimen around 300 kg and body length of around 235 cm. Thanks for sharing!

Wow! In my opinion, 380mm is already a very huge individual. But, this specimen's size and mass is more huger and exceeded my expectations.....
For example, a wild male Amur tiger went into Chinese village and shattered car windows on 23th of April this year(23 days ago), he is 2~3 years old with body weight of 225 kg. It looks very robust and strong, and very powerful. By comparison, the 300 kg individual must be spectacular....Really huge prehistoric tiger




Thanks for your reply.
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Taiwan Panthera Offline
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(05-16-2021, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....


Based on the coloration, this one looks like a typical peatland specimen from the early Holocene in Manchuria.

Definitely an Amur tiger, since it was too young to be a Cave lion.

Fossils from the Mammuthus-Coelodonta fauna of Northeast Asia usually is black coloration, this specimen is light blue, I feel special...

It is an Amur tiger, thank you for your reply
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(05-16-2021, 05:52 PM)Panthera Wrote:
(05-16-2021, 02:21 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(05-15-2021, 07:41 PM)Panthera Wrote: I do not sure whether this premolar is suitable to post in here(this topic mainly discussion canine) or not? If so, please suggest where I should post, I will delete and re-post in suitable topic, thanks.

This is P4 fossil of Panthera big cat from a outcrop of Songnen Plain, Manchuria, Northeast Asia. The length is 39.6mm and the width is 18.6mm. Because the cave lion, Panthera spelaea, is very small amount in number(even non-existent?) in this area, as far as I know from the public literature which I read, I always thought it belongs to a tiger, Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica.

Has anyone modern/prehistoric Amur tiger P4 measurement information/range? Could estimate how size the tiger(body mass or head length) by the tooth fossil?    


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


By the way, I am interest in prehistoric tiger, but unlike cave lion has independent topic, this forum seems to be no topic for prehistoric tigers? Or just i didn't find.....


Based on the coloration, this one looks like a typical peatland specimen from the early Holocene in Manchuria.

Definitely an Amur tiger, since it was too young to be a Cave lion.

Fossils from the Mammuthus-Coelodonta fauna of Northeast Asia usually is black coloration, this specimen is light blue, I feel special...

It is an Amur tiger, thank you for your reply


It is still the dark peatland coloration with some blue hue.

Regardless of that, the peatland subfossils from Manchuria are usually quite young, and most of these subfossils got predated by the Pleistocene era.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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Plus the enamel on teeth preserves a bit differently (and perhaps more aesthetically) than bone. For instance, on Java most bone fossilized some shade of brown but teeth are deep black.


*This image is copyright of its original author


You can date your fossil using the map above.
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Taiwan Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2021, 08:03 AM by Panthera )

@GrizzlyClaws agree, thanks 
@tigerluver According to this map, it should in red circle, so it is 11500-10000 years old

-----------------------------------
This is another sharing about a P4 fossil of Felidae from a outcrop in the Northern of Yunnan province, south China. Actually geological layers and era is unknown, but other large mammalian fossils from the same site include panda and Gigantopithecus, so this tooth fossil from the Pleistocene.   

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

------------------------------
I have two personal thoughts:


A. It is Tiger.
@tigerluver mention that the largest Amur skull be measured by him had a P4 of 34 mm and length of 380 mm. 
If this Yunnan P4 fossil of 36.5 mm is tiger, the skull probably exceed 380 mm (although different subspecies maybe has different transformation coefficient), right? Therefore, what I want to say is the Pleistocene tiger in south China is big, it body bigger(it is "randomly" discovered individual) than modern Amur tiger, the almost largest individual of the largest tiger subspecies.

By the way, some information :
<i>After the Toba eruption in Sumatra, about 78,000 years ago, the last population of Wanhsien tigers that survived in the north of Indochina-South of China, was the one that originated all the modern Mainland tiger populations. The location of this P4 fossil just near/in the north of Indochina-South of China.
<ii>There (Northern Yunnan) are 600 kilometres away from Wanhsien, Sichuan Province, site of Panthera tigris acutidens (Wanhsien tiger).   
------------------------

B. It is not tiger
I have also suspected that it may be Megantereon. The Genus had existed until early Pleistocene in southern China. For example, a new Megantereon species---Megantereon microta was found in Guangxi province, China (Wang et al., 2015; Guangxi province also in south China, adjacent to Yunnan province). The Megantereon microta P4 appearance is almost same with Yunnan P4 fossil in my personal feeling, but the length obviously smaller (29.2 mm; paper's measurement data) than Yunnan specimen(35.5 mm); width also obviously smaller(14.8 mm; paper's measurement data) than Yunnan specimen(17.9 mm). 


*This image is copyright of its original author

Megantereon microta (Wang et al., 2015), length is 29.2 mm, width is 14.8 mm.  


*This image is copyright of its original author

Finally, I always feel that the yellow frame area of this Yunnan specimen is shorter/different than general tiger.....  
-------------------------
Any thought?
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United States tigerluver Offline
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@Panthera,

An interesting carnassial and great thoughts, thanks for sharing. The age does make the classification less certain. 

Dentition are really hard to classify because they are so variable, especially in the lateral view. Take a look at collage from Jiangzuo and Liu (2020).:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also a diagram from Marciszak et al. (2014) to calibrate ourselves with the anatomy:

*This image is copyright of its original author


What catches my eye on the M. microta P4 is the shape of the protocone. Despite the massive variation in carnassial shape, in pantherines the posterior contour of the protocone is diagonal from the base to the apex. However, in M. microta the posterior contour starts of diagonal then sharply switches to be nearly straight. As I see it in the photos, your P4 seems to have the pantherine contour. However, if you are able to take a photo with the cusps positioned closer to midline we could check to see if the contour of the protocone appears different. 


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Taiwan Panthera Offline
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(05-19-2021, 10:52 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Panthera,

An interesting carnassial and great thoughts, thanks for sharing. The age does make the classification less certain. 

Dentition are really hard to classify because they are so variable, especially in the lateral view. Take a look at collage from Jiangzuo and Liu (2020).:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also a diagram from Marciszak et al. (2014) to calibrate ourselves with the anatomy:

*This image is copyright of its original author


What catches my eye on the M. microta P4 is the shape of the protocone. Despite the massive variation in carnassial shape, in pantherines the posterior contour of the protocone is diagonal from the base to the apex. However, in M. microta the posterior contour starts of diagonal then sharply switches to be nearly straight. As I see it in the photos, your P4 seems to have the pantherine contour. However, if you are able to take a photo with the cusps positioned closer to midline we could check to see if the contour of the protocone appears different. 


*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you for the detail reply. It is a pity I do not know exact date. I know this is difficult identify species from a single carnassial. The posterior contour of protocone method is interesting, I learn a important thing. 
Response to Fig 4. of Jiangzuo and Liu (2020), In terms of size alone, this P4 fossil size only correspond with living tiger and lion, but maybe ancient species such as leopard or other species bigger than modern one... 
Are these photos okay?

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

--------------------------------
In addition, I found something interesting is the Yunnan P4 and Manchuria P4 have common feature on protocone area as marked(It is cavity, exact location between parastyle, protocone and paracone), I guess it's tooth decay or tooth wear with the frequency of use.  

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States tigerluver Offline
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(05-19-2021, 01:30 PM)Panthera Wrote:
(05-19-2021, 10:52 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Panthera,

An interesting carnassial and great thoughts, thanks for sharing. The age does make the classification less certain. 

Dentition are really hard to classify because they are so variable, especially in the lateral view. Take a look at collage from Jiangzuo and Liu (2020).:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also a diagram from Marciszak et al. (2014) to calibrate ourselves with the anatomy:

*This image is copyright of its original author


What catches my eye on the M. microta P4 is the shape of the protocone. Despite the massive variation in carnassial shape, in pantherines the posterior contour of the protocone is diagonal from the base to the apex. However, in M. microta the posterior contour starts of diagonal then sharply switches to be nearly straight. As I see it in the photos, your P4 seems to have the pantherine contour. However, if you are able to take a photo with the cusps positioned closer to midline we could check to see if the contour of the protocone appears different. 


*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you for the detail reply. It is a pity I do not know exact date. I know this is difficult identify species from a single carnassial. The posterior contour of protocone method is interesting, I learn a important thing. 
Response to Fig 4. of Jiangzuo and Liu (2020), In terms of size alone, this P4 fossil size only correspond with living tiger and lion, but maybe ancient species such as leopard or other species bigger than modern one... 
Are these photos okay?

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

--------------------------------
In addition, I found something interesting is the Yunnan P4 and Manchuria P4 have common feature on protocone area as marked(It is cavity, exact location between parastyle, protocone and paracone), I guess it's tooth decay or tooth wear with the frequency of use.  

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


Those are excellent photos and good eye! By this view, the posterior edge of the protocone is even more diagonal, which fits with pantherines.

I took some more observation from Jiangzuo and Liu (2020) and found some more aspects in common with the tiger.:

1. Straight buccal border (in e in the figure previously posted).
2. Well-developed ectoparastyle (in d in the figure prevously posted).
3. A lack of buccal concavity.
4. Large protocone. 

Interestingly, if we look at P-Q (leopard) we see that straighter protocone posterior contour that tigers lack. Given the very diagonal protocone in your P4, it seems to make the leopard a less likely candidate. 

Here's a labeled diagram:

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-20-2021, 03:04 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(05-19-2021, 07:33 AM)Panthera Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws agree, thanks 
@tigerluver According to this map, it should in red circle, so it is 11500-10000 years old

-----------------------------------
This is another sharing about a P4 fossil of Felidae from a outcrop in the Northern of Yunnan province, south China. Actually geological layers and era is unknown, but other large mammalian fossils from the same site include panda and Gigantopithecus, so this tooth fossil from the Pleistocene.   

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

------------------------------
I have two personal thoughts:


A. It is Tiger.
@tigerluver mention that the largest Amur skull be measured by him had a P4 of 34 mm and length of 380 mm. 
If this Yunnan P4 fossil of 36.5 mm is tiger, the skull probably exceed 380 mm (although different subspecies maybe has different transformation coefficient), right? Therefore, what I want to say is the Pleistocene tiger in south China is big, it body bigger(it is "randomly" discovered individual) than modern Amur tiger, the almost largest individual of the largest tiger subspecies.

By the way, some information :
<i>After the Toba eruption in Sumatra, about 78,000 years ago, the last population of Wanhsien tigers that survived in the north of Indochina-South of China, was the one that originated all the modern Mainland tiger populations. The location of this P4 fossil just near/in the north of Indochina-South of China.
<ii>There (Northern Yunnan) are 600 kilometres away from Wanhsien, Sichuan Province, site of Panthera tigris acutidens (Wanhsien tiger).   
------------------------

B. It is not tiger
I have also suspected that it may be Megantereon. The Genus had existed until early Pleistocene in southern China. For example, a new Megantereon species---Megantereon microta was found in Guangxi province, China (Wang et al., 2015; Guangxi province also in south China, adjacent to Yunnan province). The Megantereon microta P4 appearance is almost same with Yunnan P4 fossil in my personal feeling, but the length obviously smaller (29.2 mm; paper's measurement data) than Yunnan specimen(35.5 mm); width also obviously smaller(14.8 mm; paper's measurement data) than Yunnan specimen(17.9 mm). 


*This image is copyright of its original author

Megantereon microta (Wang et al., 2015), length is 29.2 mm, width is 14.8 mm.  


*This image is copyright of its original author

Finally, I always feel that the yellow frame area of this Yunnan specimen is shorter/different than general tiger.....  
-------------------------
Any thought?


Late Pleistocene tiger from Szechuan/Sichuan.

Look like it was far beyond any modern tiger in term of sheer size and robusticity.




*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-20-2021, 03:14 AM by tigerluver )

I also wanted to check to confirm the blue P4 is tiger and not cave lion. Observe the lower position of the protocone relative to the preparastyle in the cave lion:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Upper carnassials from the Bi´snikBi´snik Cave. Panthera spelaea fossilis: 1) JB/Ps/112, 2) JB/Ps/108. Panthera spelaea spelaea: 3) JB/Ps/107, 4) JB/Ps/106. Natural size.

Now compare that to the blue P4, which has a highly positioned protocone like that of the tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This feature is quite diagnostic and solidifies its classification to the tiger. Interesting you can see the high position of the protocone (as well as the straight buccal border) in the P4 of the giant Szechuan skull @GrizzlyClaws posted.
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Taiwan Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-23-2021, 09:34 AM by Panthera )

(05-20-2021, 03:12 AM)tigerluver Wrote: I also wanted to check to confirm the blue P4 is tiger and not cave lion. Observe the lower position of the protocone relative to the preparastyle in the cave lion:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Upper carnassials from the Bi´snikBi´snik Cave. Panthera spelaea fossilis: 1) JB/Ps/112, 2) JB/Ps/108. Panthera spelaea spelaea: 3) JB/Ps/107, 4) JB/Ps/106. Natural size.

Now compare that to the blue P4, which has a highly positioned protocone like that of the tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This feature is quite diagnostic and solidifies its classification to the tiger. Interesting you can see the high position of the protocone (as well as the straight buccal border) in the P4 of the giant Szechuan skull @GrizzlyClaws posted.
@GrizzlyClaws The Late Pleistocene tiger from Sichuan is very huge, Thanks for sharing!

Thanks a lot @tigerluver for your quickly response and suggestion and data. We can diagnosis the candidate species based on these features in the future. I also spent two days reading this paper, this is very helpful for diagnosing big cat tooth(additionally, know more about the evolution of the jaguar), thanks. The probability yellow and blue P4 fossil are tiger tooth is very high now.

Base on the yellow P4 is tiger and tiger's fossil age record in southern China, I consider it come from Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna(a general and main fauna in southern China from mid Pleistocene) which age is mid Pleistocene to late Pleistocene. As far as I know, southern China no tiger reports before mid Pleistocene. 
I also want to correct the site of the yellow P4 fossil, I said/wrote something wrong after I check my note card again. The right area where it find is northern Guizhou Province, not Yunnan but adjacent Yunnan. On the other hand, a paper (Zhao et al., 2016) reported a Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna in northern Guizhou Province materials include tiger fossil tooth(Fig. 10), even the material color and quality is as same as the yellow P4 as far as I look. According to the dating results of medium-grained polymineral extract (tab.2), the age of animals fossil layer on this site is 112-178 ka. Maybe the yellow P4 is same age. 
If so, this yellow P4 fossil survived in subtropical forest habitat with warm-humid climate in in Middle-Late Pleistocene, more likely in late Middle Pleistocene or early Late Pleistocene; the area is just near/in the north of Indochina-South of China and it is specimen before the Toba eruption event about 78,000 year ago. Supplement above.
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