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Skulls, Skeletons, Canines & Claws

tigerluver Offline
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(05-23-2021, 09:28 AM)Panthera Wrote:
(05-20-2021, 03:12 AM)tigerluver Wrote: I also wanted to check to confirm the blue P4 is tiger and not cave lion. Observe the lower position of the protocone relative to the preparastyle in the cave lion:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Upper carnassials from the Bi´snikBi´snik Cave. Panthera spelaea fossilis: 1) JB/Ps/112, 2) JB/Ps/108. Panthera spelaea spelaea: 3) JB/Ps/107, 4) JB/Ps/106. Natural size.

Now compare that to the blue P4, which has a highly positioned protocone like that of the tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This feature is quite diagnostic and solidifies its classification to the tiger. Interesting you can see the high position of the protocone (as well as the straight buccal border) in the P4 of the giant Szechuan skull @GrizzlyClaws posted.
@GrizzlyClaws The Late Pleistocene tiger from Sichuan is very huge, Thanks for sharing!

Thanks a lot @tigerluver for your quickly response and suggestion and data. We can diagnosis the candidate species based on these features in the future. I also spent two days reading this paper, this is very helpful for diagnosing big cat tooth(additionally, know more about the evolution of the jaguar), thanks. The probability yellow and blue P4 fossil are tiger tooth is very high now.

Base on the yellow P4 is tiger and tiger's fossil age record in southern China, I consider it come from Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna(a general and main fauna in southern China from mid Pleistocene) which age is mid Pleistocene to late Pleistocene. As far as I know, southern China no tiger reports before mid Pleistocene. 
I also want to correct the site of the yellow P4 fossil, I said/wrote something wrong after I check my note card again. The right area where it find is northern Guizhou Province, not Yunnan but adjacent Yunnan. On the other hand, a paper (Zhao et al., 2016) reported a Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna in northern Guizhou Province materials include tiger fossil tooth(Fig. 10), even the material color and quality is as same as the yellow P4 as far as I look. According to the dating results of medium-grained polymineral extract (tab.2), the age of animals fossil layer on this site is 112-178 ka. Maybe the yellow P4 is same age. 
If so, this yellow P4 fossil survived in subtropical forest habitat with warm-humid climate in in Middle-Late Pleistocene, more likely in late Middle Pleistocene or early Late Pleistocene; the area is just near/in the north of Indochina-South of China and it is specimen before the Toba eruption event about 78,000 year ago. Supplement above.


Very impressive analysis. Often the private specimens do come from the same published localities (museums often buy from onsite collectors). Therefore, it's quite reasonable the yellow P4 is from the same fauna as Zhao et al. (2016) given the striking similarity in preservation. The enamel is also rather fresh which that somewhat younger age. 

Is the length of the P. tigris M1 in figure 10 (#4) reported in Zhao et al. (2016)? Using the scale bar I measured an M1 length of 29, which is of around 400 mm greatest skull length tiger. If that's accurate, it seems 400+ mm skulls were average for Late Pleistocene Chinese tiger.
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tigerluver Offline
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(05-03-2021, 07:44 PM)Panthera Wrote: Tiger mandible fossil from Chochen Fauna, Tainan, Taiwan, 0.96Ma-0.46Ma.

fossil site map link: Tainan, Taiwan

*This image is copyright of its original author


My apologies for missing this. Do you have any more information on the fossil or websites with references? It looks akin to modern mandibles in terms of proportions which is intriguing.
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Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-23-2021, 02:34 PM by Panthera )

(05-23-2021, 11:29 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 09:28 AM)Panthera Wrote:
(05-20-2021, 03:12 AM)tigerluver Wrote: I also wanted to check to confirm the blue P4 is tiger and not cave lion. Observe the lower position of the protocone relative to the preparastyle in the cave lion:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Upper carnassials from the Bi´snikBi´snik Cave. Panthera spelaea fossilis: 1) JB/Ps/112, 2) JB/Ps/108. Panthera spelaea spelaea: 3) JB/Ps/107, 4) JB/Ps/106. Natural size.

Now compare that to the blue P4, which has a highly positioned protocone like that of the tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This feature is quite diagnostic and solidifies its classification to the tiger. Interesting you can see the high position of the protocone (as well as the straight buccal border) in the P4 of the giant Szechuan skull @GrizzlyClaws posted.
@GrizzlyClaws The Late Pleistocene tiger from Sichuan is very huge, Thanks for sharing!

Thanks a lot @tigerluver for your quickly response and suggestion and data. We can diagnosis the candidate species based on these features in the future. I also spent two days reading this paper, this is very helpful for diagnosing big cat tooth(additionally, know more about the evolution of the jaguar), thanks. The probability yellow and blue P4 fossil are tiger tooth is very high now.

Base on the yellow P4 is tiger and tiger's fossil age record in southern China, I consider it come from Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna(a general and main fauna in southern China from mid Pleistocene) which age is mid Pleistocene to late Pleistocene. As far as I know, southern China no tiger reports before mid Pleistocene. 
I also want to correct the site of the yellow P4 fossil, I said/wrote something wrong after I check my note card again. The right area where it find is northern Guizhou Province, not Yunnan but adjacent Yunnan. On the other hand, a paper (Zhao et al., 2016) reported a Ailuropoda-Stegodon fauna in northern Guizhou Province materials include tiger fossil tooth(Fig. 10), even the material color and quality is as same as the yellow P4 as far as I look. According to the dating results of medium-grained polymineral extract (tab.2), the age of animals fossil layer on this site is 112-178 ka. Maybe the yellow P4 is same age. 
If so, this yellow P4 fossil survived in subtropical forest habitat with warm-humid climate in in Middle-Late Pleistocene, more likely in late Middle Pleistocene or early Late Pleistocene; the area is just near/in the north of Indochina-South of China and it is specimen before the Toba eruption event about 78,000 year ago. Supplement above.


Very impressive analysis. Often the private specimens do come from the same published localities (museums often buy from onsite collectors). Therefore, it's quite reasonable the yellow P4 is from the same fauna as Zhao et al. (2016) given the striking similarity in preservation. The enamel is also rather fresh which that somewhat younger age. 

Is the length of the P. tigris M1 in figure 10 (#4) reported in Zhao et al. (2016)? Using the scale bar I measured an M1 length of 29, which is of around 400 mm greatest skull length tiger. If that's accurate, it seems 400+ mm skulls were average for Late Pleistocene Chinese tiger.

Yes, that is length. If you mean m1 of tiger mandible in figure 10(#5), I also measured 29 mm. The paper reported the#4 P4 is leopard. 400+ mm skull is big, Pleistocene tigers seem to be bigger than modern tiger....
I also read some papers published by Chinese language have Pleistocene tiger skull or tooth fossil photos include scale bar like this paper, some tooth I feel big. For example, a P4 length of 40 mm, but it is not in Amur tiger distribution area, otherwise, in Central China, the P. t. amoyensis distribution area(of course, maybe there were no such subspecies at the time). If you or other people have interesting, I can share paper's links.


*This image is copyright of its original author

#10b is tiger in Hubei Province, central China in middle Pleistocene; Using the scale bar I measured an P4 length of 40 mm (#4b is hyena, not tiger; #11 also is tiger p4)
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Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-23-2021, 03:23 PM by Panthera )

(05-23-2021, 12:44 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-03-2021, 07:44 PM)Panthera Wrote: Tiger mandible fossil from Chochen Fauna, Tainan, Taiwan, 0.96Ma-0.46Ma.

fossil site map link: Tainan, Taiwan

*This image is copyright of its original author


My apologies for missing this. Do you have any more information on the fossil or websites with references? It looks akin to modern mandibles in terms of proportions which is intriguing.

As far as I know, this mandible fossil has not studied and published. It is one of tiger collection of National Taiwan Museum. This photo was taken by me when I visited this March. I also took tiger's limb and broken premolar photos. I do not have measurement data, maybe I can take ruler next time.
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tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-23-2021, 10:26 PM by tigerluver )

@Panthera, thank you, I'd love to read those papers! Subspecies differences, at least in terms of size, is probably more of a Holocene result, I agree.

Would be interesting to see the measurements. Sometimes museums can be contacted too for help in this regard but it's harder to contact internationally.
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Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-24-2021, 05:43 PM by Panthera )

#1

*This image is copyright of its original author

Big cat skull fossil in Late Pleistocene cave in Liaoning Province(map), northern China (Fu et al., 2010; Fig.7):
The text description said Canine crown length is 48 mm (base on scale bar I measurement, this number may said gum line); 
P3 length of 32.2 mm with width of 13.7 mm;
P4 length of 41.2 mm with width of 23.3 mm;
This article also said in fact tiger and lion are not easy to distinguish. However, because there is only tigers in China now, so this big cat skull fossil is classified as tiger temporarily, and need more studies in the future. 
About the age of this fauna, I read related articles, one consider this fauna in 50 ka (Dong et al., 2009), the other consider this fauna in 11.7-126 ka(Zhan et al., 2014; table2). However, there is a report consider the age earlier about middle Late Pleistocene about/over 200 ka(Wang et al., 2009).

If it is tiger really, the P4 is huge, bigger than the blue one. Is Canine's gum line length of 48 mm also big? How total length of the Canine may be?
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-25-2021, 04:37 AM by Pckts )

Spotted, Brown and Striped Hyena Skulls


African Leopard


Indian Leopard



*This image is copyright of its original author
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tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-25-2021, 05:02 AM by tigerluver )

(05-24-2021, 05:34 PM)Panthera Wrote: #1

*This image is copyright of its original author

Big cat skull fossil in Late Pleistocene cave in Liaoning Province(map), northern China (Fu et al., 2010; Fig.7):
The text description said Canine crown length is 48 mm (base on scale bar I measurement, this number may said gum line); 
P3 length of 32.2 mm with width of 13.7 mm;
P4 length of 41.2 mm with width of 23.3 mm;
This article also said in fact tiger and lion are not easy to distinguish. However, because there is only tigers in China now, so this big cat skull fossil is classified as tiger temporarily, and need more studies in the future. 
About the age of this fauna, I read related articles, one consider this fauna in 50 ka (Dong et al., 2009), the other consider this fauna in 11.7-126 ka(Zhan et al., 2014; table2). However, there is a report consider the age earlier about middle Late Pleistocene about/over 200 ka(Wang et al., 2009).

If it is tiger really, the P4 is huge, bigger than the blue one. Is Canine's gum line length of 48 mm also big? How total length of the Canine may be?

Thank you! It seems they don't provide a skull measurement. Using the scale bar the skull length is only 323 mm. However, unfortunately the scale bar seems off as the P4 measured with the bar is ~35-38 mm so we don't have a reliable way to estimate. Would you or @GrizzlyClaws be able to contact the corresponding author in the paper regarding the skull length and width? The email is at the bottom of page 1 of the manuscript but if needed I can PM the email address.
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Belgium Luipaard Offline
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@tigerluver 

Is there a way to gauge this leopard skull its dimensions?


*This image is copyright of its original author


It looks fairly large compared to the crocodile and forest buffalo skulls. It also possesses wide zygomatic arches.

Judging by its size, I'm fairly sure it belonged to a male leopard so should be at least 240 mm long.
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tigerluver Offline
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(05-26-2021, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @tigerluver 

Is there a way to gauge this leopard skull its dimensions?


*This image is copyright of its original author


It looks fairly large compared to the crocodile and forest buffalo skulls. It also possesses wide zygomatic arches.

Judging by its size, I'm fairly sure it belonged to a male leopard so should be at least 240 mm long.

Sure I can give it a go. Could you please find the average skull measurements of the other species in the image?
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Belgium Luipaard Offline
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(05-26-2021, 09:21 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @tigerluver 

Is there a way to gauge this leopard skull its dimensions?


*This image is copyright of its original author


It looks fairly large compared to the crocodile and forest buffalo skulls. It also possesses wide zygomatic arches.

Judging by its size, I'm fairly sure it belonged to a male leopard so should be at least 240 mm long.

Sure I can give it a go. Could you please find the average skull measurements of the other species in the image?

I'll see what I can find about them although I'm unsure which crocodile subspecies it is. I can however already tell you that the horn width of an African forest buffalo ranges between 34-72 cm (source: Wilson and Mittermeier (2011)).

Thanks in advance by the way
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tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-29-2021, 12:31 AM by tigerluver )

(05-26-2021, 10:43 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 09:21 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @tigerluver 

Is there a way to gauge this leopard skull its dimensions?


*This image is copyright of its original author


It looks fairly large compared to the crocodile and forest buffalo skulls. It also possesses wide zygomatic arches.

Judging by its size, I'm fairly sure it belonged to a male leopard so should be at least 240 mm long.

Sure I can give it a go. Could you please find the average skull measurements of the other species in the image?

I'll see what I can find about them although I'm unsure which crocodile subspecies it is. I can however already tell you that the horn width of an African forest buffalo ranges between 34-72 cm (source: Wilson and Mittermeier (2011)).

Thanks in advance by the way



*This image is copyright of its original author


I measured different specimens, hope it helps. The angle and spacing makes this a difficult comparison. The leopard skull is 184.4 px long by 132.3 px wide. I couldn't find data on the other skull/jaws but if one can find those they can use the ratios to make estimates.
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Belgium Luipaard Offline
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(05-27-2021, 10:19 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 10:43 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 09:21 PM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-26-2021, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @tigerluver 

Is there a way to gauge this leopard skull its dimensions?


*This image is copyright of its original author


It looks fairly large compared to the crocodile and forest buffalo skulls. It also possesses wide zygomatic arches.

Judging by its size, I'm fairly sure it belonged to a male leopard so should be at least 240 mm long.

Sure I can give it a go. Could you please find the average skull measurements of the other species in the image?

I'll see what I can find about them although I'm unsure which crocodile subspecies it is. I can however already tell you that the horn width of an African forest buffalo ranges between 34-72 cm (source: Wilson and Mittermeier (2011)).

Thanks in advance by the way



*This image is copyright of its original author


I measured different specimens, hope it helps The angle and spacing makes this a difficult comparison. The leopard skull is 184.4 px long by 132.3 px wide. I couldn't find data on the other skull/jaws but if one can find those they can use the ratios to make estimates.

Great job, thanks! I'm currently looking for skull measurements of red river hog, gorilla, crocodile and forest buffalo. I got in touch with someone who's knowledgable regarding crocodilians and he said the following:

Quote:Hello. This skull looks like an extremely large skull of the Dwarf crocodile (Osteolaemus tetraspis). I can assume that this is a large male, but it is difficult to estimate its size without measurements.

I'll see what I can find. Thanks for all your effort so far.
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Panthera Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-30-2021, 01:21 PM by Panthera )

(05-25-2021, 04:51 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 05:34 PM)Panthera Wrote: #1

*This image is copyright of its original author

Big cat skull fossil in Late Pleistocene cave in Liaoning Province(map), northern China (Fu et al., 2010; Fig.7):
The text description said Canine crown length is 48 mm (base on scale bar I measurement, this number may said gum line); 
P3 length of 32.2 mm with width of 13.7 mm;
P4 length of 41.2 mm with width of 23.3 mm;
This article also said in fact tiger and lion are not easy to distinguish. However, because there is only tigers in China now, so this big cat skull fossil is classified as tiger temporarily, and need more studies in the future. 
About the age of this fauna, I read related articles, one consider this fauna in 50 ka (Dong et al., 2009), the other consider this fauna in 11.7-126 ka(Zhan et al., 2014; table2). However, there is a report consider the age earlier about middle Late Pleistocene about/over 200 ka(Wang et al., 2009).

If it is tiger really, the P4 is huge, bigger than the blue one. Is Canine's gum line length of 48 mm also big? How total length of the Canine may be?

Thank you! It seems they don't provide a skull measurement. Using the scale bar the skull length is only 323 mm. However, unfortunately the scale bar seems off as the P4 measured with the bar is ~35-38 mm so we don't have a reliable way to estimate. Would you or @GrizzlyClaws be able to contact the corresponding author in the paper regarding the skull length and width? The email is at the bottom of page 1 of the manuscript but if needed I can PM the email address.

@tigerluver
Indeed odd
About #1 skull fossil, I will try, but I am not sure if will get a reply....

--------------------

Continue to post the Pleistocene prehistoric tigers fossil: 

#2

*This image is copyright of its original author

Zou et al., 2016. Fig.4 (#34), Panthera tigris, left m1. The Late Pleistocene; Jiangxi Province, China.

--------------------------

#3

*This image is copyright of its original author

Zhang et al., 2017. Fig.3 (#23), Panthera tigris, right P4. The Late Pleistocene; Jiangxi Province, China.

---------------------------

#4

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tong et al., 2019. Fig.4 (#8~12 is tiger, the other specimens is not), Panthera tigris. The Middle Pleistocene. Hubei Province, Central China.
ps. #13 is leopard
-----------------------------
#5

*This image is copyright of its original author

Han and Zhang, 1978. Fig. II (#4), page 10, Panthera tigris right P4 (has not scale bar). The Late Pleistocene. Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province, Central China. 
This article also mention a tiger canine length of 120 mm with labiolingual dimension(gum line?) width of 33 mm (the first line, page 260), but has not picture be show.
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United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-31-2021, 01:06 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(05-30-2021, 12:45 PM)Panthera Wrote: Han and Zhang, 1978. Fig. II (#4), page 10, Panthera tigris right P4 (has not scale bar). The Late Pleistocene. Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province, Central China. 
This article also mention a tiger canine length of 120 mm with labiolingual dimension(gum line?) width of 33 mm (the first line, page 260), but has not picture be show.


The total canine length of 120 mm and presumably 33 mm for the AP length is well within the normal spectrum for the modern tigers.

Even the most extreme case for the modern tigers could achieve the extent of 160+ mm/50 mm, and I am quite certain that the upper limit for the late Pleistocene tigers from the Mainland China should be no less than that.
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