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Tiger Predation
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 (08-04-2018, 07:36 PM)Jimmy Wrote: the rhino had been wounded by tiger, probably hamstringing it days before and was weakening 1. Yes, that's was my initial idea - rhino should be initially weakened by prolonged attacks on its hind legs causing heavy blood lost combined maybe with growing infection of the wounds - result is that gigantic animal became sick, dizzy and weak. I had some doubts in this hypothesis on the ground that usually big cats launch their major assault on frontal parts of the herbivores and such a "wolfish" attack on hindquarters could be unnacceptable for tiger's brain, but the video with hamstringing and eating alive of gaur which Rishi pointed proved that tiger is quite capable of such a behavior. 2. In order to brake the neck of a rhino, the predator should be not much less in size and brutal force than the victim. The only carnivorous mammal which could do such a job is probably ancient short faced bear..., and as we know short faced bears don't roam forests of Assam... 3. I don't think that that cameraman is lying, he probably just didn't realized what exactly happened... Arriving initially on the spot to shot a movie, in the moment of tiger attack he forgot what is his job, forgot that he is a cameraman and left us to guess what exactly happened leaving only a image where we see a tiger feeding on dead rhino's body. 4. Jimmy is getting closer to my initial idea, but surprisingly for me I'm getting closer to his and Rishi's initial idea - if young, not fully grown rhino is feeding in swampy aria, his movements could be quite restricted, capability for defense limited and animal could be vulnerable for tiger attack. Experienced tiger probably is capable to digging in the flesh and reach out a major blood vessel in the neck aria for several minutes during the "ride" more specially if the subadult rhino in its panic enter into more sticky arias of the swamp. Initial hamstringing from previous days could only help the total collapse of the rhino. If the rhino is a healthy adult or if the animal is on hard ground any theories about killing it from tiger seems for me contradicting to the common sense and human logic. (08-04-2018, 04:33 PM)Rishi Wrote: He might take a chunk of flesh with a full powered bite, but he cannot deliver a spine crusher to even a reasonably grown calf. So, you think that tiger cant even cut of pieces of flesh from rhino's neck? Interesting, but maybe a bit exaggerated. Than how come tiger later started eating from rhino's neck, it should be impossible even to feed on it. Probably you have red some texts about saber-teeth cats but in their case due to length of their teeth angles are different. What is 100% sure is that tiger can not brake a neck of a rhino. That's a bulshit.  (08-05-2018, 12:59 PM)Wolverine Wrote: So, you think that tiger can't even cut of pieces of flesh from rhino's neck? Interesting, but maybe a bit exaggerated. Than how come tiger later started eating from rhino's neck, it should be impossible even to feed on it. Probably you have red some texts about saber-teeth cats but in their case due to length of their teeth angles are different. Once horned rhino's probably have one of the, if not the, thickest & toughest hide of all land mammals. Making an opening in that shouldn't be easy even for a tiger. It can feed of course, once it tears off a gap in it with its scissored molars, but i doubt they can just bite off a chunk like eating a cake... or maybe they can. Who knows?  (08-05-2018, 06:55 AM)Rishi Wrote: @Shir Babr just beside the tail where the hamstring adjoining muscle-group joins the hipbone. Seems my initial confusion was due to language. I searched for more videos involving this technique, and I still have questions about it, but I don't know if it's ok with the mods to keep discussing it here. Thanks. (08-05-2018, 08:45 PM)Shir Babr Wrote:(08-05-2018, 06:55 AM)Rishi Wrote: @Shir Babr just beside the tail where the hamstring adjoining muscle-group joins the hipbone. Just do go off-topic. Not much is known & constructive information gathering is always welcome.
Do you guys have any data on tiger predatio on elephants? I have heard that they have attacked and killed elephants before. There are so many false accounts of the encounters though.
@Rishi I think you are right, tiger can't cut off big pieces of flesh from the nape and neck aria of rhino or elephant due to angle of his jaws. I remember a white rhino from close distance in the zoo - in front of you is wide wall of extreemly rough, robust skin and flesh, in order to cut off a flesh you need to have really gigantic mouth - probably almost the mouth of theraphod dinosaurus… its same as you are trying to bite a flat table...
Saber-teeth cats were by many theories not a "biters", but a "pokers" they were able to kill gigantic animals only because they used their extremely long canine teeth to "poke" deep in the neck flesh penetrating the neck arteries, they were not biting because their mouth were also not enough big to cut a big pieces of flesh from ancient elephant or gigantic bison latifrons. Smilodon populator seems erected his body on his hind legs with front legs on bison's corps lifted his head and with extremely powerful movement downwards penetrated the neck artery of the gigantic herbivore. That's probably the only way to kill an elephant or rhino in the frontal part of their bodies. Modern big cats from genus Panthera however haven't so long canine teeth and that's why probably are not capable to kill a rhino or elephant attacking frontal part of their bodies. They could kill a giant probably only through tenaciuos hamstringing. So I think Jimmy's cartoons are quite correct. Probably that subadult rhino was initially hamstringed, over exhausted by blood lost, dizzy and when tiger jump on his back the animal just collapsed and cameraman decided that that tiger broke rhino's neck instantly.... Congratulations @Jimmy ! (08-06-2018, 05:49 AM)King Feline Wrote: Do you guys have any data on tiger predation on elephants? Most of what's been recorded is present in this thread. Feel free to browse through older posts. (08-06-2018, 09:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Modern big cats from genus Panthera however haven't so long canine teeth and that's why probably are not capable to kill a rhino or elephant attacking frontal part of their bodies. It isn't just the size; modern felines have more conical canines, unlike the flattened and even crenulated upper canines of sabretooth cats. Also modern big cats teeth can resist more stress when holding on to struggling prey for longer periods of time. @Rishi I looked for more videos and images of the hamstring technique and also talked about it with a zoologist. My conclusion is that the main purpose of this method of attack is to avoid the prey defenses and destabilize it, not to damage the hamstrings in particular. When targeting the rump, felines bite mostly with their canines; teeth that are made for stabbing and holding, not cutting, so if the main goal was to sever the hamstrings to make the legs give in, using the sharp carnassials would be a better choice for the job. Sometimes you can see they're biting the base of the tail or farther up, so the spine is a target, as in the image bellow. But what probably makes the victim fall is a combination of fatigue from the struggle, the attacker's weight and the loss of balance (combination that might cause shock, blood loss don't seems an issue), not the damage to the muscles or tendons, as evidenced by how many prey fall before the muscles are seriously injured or how such injuries sometimes never even take place during the process. And it seems many buffaloes escape from such attacks without suffering limps or being crippled. But of course, crippling muscle or tendon damage can be possible too, but not as a rule.  *This image is copyright of its original author In the video from post #1,190, the gaur is already immobilized when the tigress is eating it alive, the gaur doesn't seem to be in pain, as in this other example in 2:19, which means that both animals were in shock or even suffered spinal damage. This is the complete video of the clip you shared on post #1,330: In 2:27 is clear that the lion is pulling the tail, before the idiots just scared it away making all their efforts useless. Another video where three or more lions try the technique and none damages the hamstrings; the buffalo ultimately escapes, and a close up to the targeted area in 7:48 reveals damage to the tail. My two cents is that pulling successfully a hamstringing on an Indian rhino, that is 2 or more times heavier than big bovines and with thicker skin would be much, much harder if not almost impossible. 
Please do not derail the thread.. post things which are related to a thread and then you can link them in other thread if needed during conversation.
(08-06-2018, 12:58 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: My two cents is that pulling successfully a hamstringing on an Indian rhino, that is 2 or more times heavier than big bovines and with thicker skin would be much, much harder if not almost impossible. Of course even hamstringing of Indian rhino, who is 3 times the size of buffalo is not easy task. Probably it could be applied by tiger only to subadult rhinos. Rhinos are one of the most ancient mammals in the planet they evolved 40-50 miilions years ago while modern cats from genus Panthera as tiger, lion etc are only 2-4 mya old so obviously in prehistoric times Indian rhino had faced predators much larger and much more scaring than modern tiger and it has survived all of them. (08-06-2018, 10:36 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(08-06-2018, 12:58 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: My two cents is that pulling successfully a hamstringing on an Indian rhino, that is 2 or more times heavier than big bovines and with thicker skin would be much, much harder if not almost impossible. Modern rhinos aren't the same as prehistoric relatives, same goes for crocs and sharks. Is a common misconception. But I'm done with this until there are more photos of the tiger and rhino incident. (08-06-2018, 10:36 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Of course even hamstringing of Indian rhino, who is 3 times the size of buffalo is not easy task. Probably it could be applied by tiger only to subadult rhinos. @Shir Babr might have just dealt a strong blow to the roots of the whole concept of hamstringing. Do read the replies to post #1,344 is on thread Lion Predation. (#514) @sanjay It does concern both lion & tigers. Still, as more lion examples were used, the rest of the conversation is in Lion Predation (where it seems equally out of place). 
My take on the recent rhino kill incident.
No tiger can snap a rhinoes neck with a bite (adult or subadult, male or female). Infact no modern bigcats were built for such feats. They lack the size and force required for such feats. But a 500+lbs tiger jumping from a very high vantage point with force of gravity on its side might snap or injure a rhinoes neck to the point of immobilising it. Regarding the picture shared by the photographer, it doesnt show a freshly killed rhino carcass. That rhino should be dead at least for a couple of days, the white markings all over its hide is nothing but bird shit. So scavenger birds been feeding on the carcass. So if the photographer had witnessed the hunt, this particular image was not taken at that time, may be a few days later.  *This image is copyright of its original author Regarding the rhino skin thickness here is a pic showing it.  *This image is copyright of its original author
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