There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---
Top Posts of the month: You can nominate the best written and quality info posts as the top post of the month. Help us to choose and feature them in our special section. Click here to learn more about it and how you can help us

  • 3 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Tiger Predation

Canada Wolverine Online
Regular Member
***
Smile  ( This post was last modified: 08-09-2018, 02:23 AM by Wolverine )

(08-08-2018, 09:55 AM)Apollo Wrote: But a 500+lbs tiger jumping from a very high vantage point with force of gravity on its side might snap or injure a rhinoes neck to the point of immobilizing

If you drop 200 kg tiger vertically from 20 m high directly on rhino's head probably he will snap the neck. But after such a collision tiger also will be smashed and his legs broken. Same will happen if German chancellor Angela Merkel jump from 30 m high directly on rhino's neck.... The same power who snap the neck same power will brake the tiger's legs.
Reply

Canada Wolverine Online
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 08-09-2018, 02:21 AM by Wolverine )

(08-07-2018, 09:48 AM)Rishi Wrote: a strong blow to the roots of the whole concept of hamstringing.

If hamstringing can not totally immobilize a big herbivore tnan that gaur on the video will be not so helpless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScA9OA6BfKs

George Shaller, my respects for him have lived in forest of India if I'm not wrong only around 12 months, is that enough to make general conclusions is under question. Here better we need somebody who spend all his life in the forests of India - for example Corbett or some current Indian researcher. I fogy remember that Jim Corbet in his book "Jungle lore" was describing  a cases of hamstinging of buffalos from the side of a tigers but now don't have a time to search for any details.

Ok, if we accept the hypothesis that tiger can not kill a rhino by hamstringing than probably we have to admit that is not possible to kill an adult healthy rhino at all. That's fine. Speaking frankly I think that is very hard to believe. Maybe all adult or subadult rhinos "killed" by tigers were very sick (the jungles are plenty with sick animals) at the point that they soon or late were close to death by natural reasons and the tigers just accelerated the dead with several days, start eating them alive.
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

Prem Sharma
"Khumba enjoying the cow kill"

- at Ranthambore Tiger Reserve, India
September, 2017

*This image is copyright of its original author
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
5 users Like Pckts's post
Reply

Sri Lanka Apollo Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
*****
Moderators

(08-09-2018, 01:33 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(08-08-2018, 09:55 AM)Apollo Wrote: But a 500+lbs tiger jumping from a very high vantage point with force of gravity on its side might snap or injure a rhinoes neck to the point of immobilizing

If you drop 200 kg tiger vertically from 20 m high directly on rhino's head probably he will snap the neck. But after such a collision tiger also will be smashed and his legs broken. Same will happen if German chancellor Angela Merkel jump from 30 m high directly on rhino's neck.... The same power who snap the neck same power will brake the tiger's legs.

Why you want to compare a human being to a tiger. Cats are built differently, they have a very flexible spine and body with higher shock absorbing capabilities.
What made you to choose that 20m mark, any  specific reason ?  Why not 10m, 12m, 15m etc
I've seen tiger jumping from 10m height without any trouble.
Why did you bring up the German chancellor in the first place ??? I find it dumb 

And finally if you want to talk about hamstring technique, start a separate thread in the questions section.
Reply

Canada Wolverine Online
Regular Member
***

Relax, I just tried to be more illustrative, probably it was bad joke, nothing personal, don't accept it so personaly, please.
Actually I also don't see any need to discus tiger-rhino  topic anymore without having a video because this theoretical speculations could go endlessly.
Reply

Sri Lanka Apollo Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
*****
Moderators

(08-09-2018, 05:09 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Relax, I just tried to be more illustrative, probably it was bad joke, nothing personal, don't accept it so personaly, please.
Actually I also don't see any need to discus tiger-rhino  topic anymore without having a video because this theoretical speculations could go endlessly.

I never took it personal.
I felt using the German chancellor as an example is a disrespectful gesture.
Being a public forum its bad to bring up such example.

I totally agree on putting an end to this discussion until further evidence.
IMO it would have been more credible if the photographer had presented a picture showing a freshly killed rhino with the tiger, but instead he shared a picture of a rhino carcass (seemed to be at least a day or more older) with clear signs of bird scavenging. So there is no evidence that he was present during the actual hunt.
2 users Like Apollo's post
Reply

India Rishi Online
Moderator
*****
Moderators
( This post was last modified: 08-10-2018, 07:08 AM by Rishi )

(08-09-2018, 04:44 AM)Apollo Wrote: And finally if you want to talk about hamstring technique, start a separate thread in the questions section.

Hamstringing is closely related to tigers' predation of larger mammals, won't you agree?

@Shir Babr challenged the concept. Technically no question was asked either.
The part where comparisons with asiatic lions were made was discussed in Lion Predation (#514).

(08-09-2018, 02:16 AM)Wolverine Wrote: If hamstringing can not totally immobilize a big herbivore tnan that gaur on the video will be not so helpless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScA9OA6BfKs

George Shaller, my respects for him have lived in forest of India if I'm not wrong only around 12 months, is that enough to make general conclusions is under question. Here better we need somebody who spend all his life in the forests of India - for example Corbett or some current Indian researcher. I fogy remember that Jim Corbet in his book "Jungle lore" was describing  a cases of hamstinging of buffalos from the side of a tigers but now don't have a time to search for any details.

I'm past speculating about the rhino incident. I'd rather wait for more details on it.

Other than that i just acknowledged that he made good points, not disproved the very existance of hamstringing.
He argues that the gaur is immobilised by exhaustion, shock etc. based on following statement by Schaller. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

But as you say, it is an estabished idea endorsed by people who've spent their whole lives in jungles of India & even modern day people affiliated to the Wildlife Institute of India.
Quote:When a Sariska tigress pounced on a hapless nilgai

Hindustan Times ST (Jaipur) - 11 May 2015 - Dibyendu Mandal



*This image is copyright of its original author

1. The male nilgai is spotted in the bushes, which are a good 50-metre away from the tigress (which is yet to come into the picture).
2. The nilgai clearly comes into focus and can be seen standing in the bushes.
3. The ST-10 tigress makes her move and attacks the nilgai’s s hamstring muscle.
4. The tigress continues to hamstring the nilgai, which has almost become lifeless at this point.
5. The ST-10 has released the hapless nilgai and has settled down comfortably in a corner, waiting for him to collapse.
6. She grips the nilgai’s neck and proceeds to devour him.

HAMSTRING TECHNIQUE IS EFFECTIVE AGAINST LARGE ANIMALS SUCH AS GAURS OR BUFFALOES, WHICH ARE HEAVIER THAN TIGERS.

The deputy conservator of forest (DCF) in the Sariska Tiger Reserve —38 kilometres from Alwar City — was in for a surprise on May 6, 2015, when a male nilgai was hamstrung by a tigress (ST10).
The ST-10 used the hamstring technique to attack the animal.
The attack — which lasted for a good 80 minutes —was documented by DCF Manoj Parashar.
As per the wildlife department, the tigress confidently hamstrung the nilgai without even using her forelegs to grip the animal and prevent his escape. The nilgai was unable to move as the tigress was tearing off his hamstring mercilessly.

*This image is copyright of its original author

After hamstringing the nilgai, she confidently sat at a distance, waiting for him to collapse.
Later, she killed him by attacking his neck and happily relished her meal.
This is a unique incident in Sariska, not only due to the technique employed by her, but also because the ST10 is a special tigress in her own right.
ST-10 became an orphan when she was barely four months old, as her mother, famous T-25 (Kachida) tigress of Ranthambore National Park, died in February 2011. But, to everyone’s surprise, a male tiger Zalim raised the cubs, which is a rare phenomenon in wildlife......
Later, both cubs were translocated to Sariska in January 2011.
Since her arrival in Sariska, ST-10 has been regularly killing wild preys and has given birth to two cubs last year.

The author is a research fellow at Wildlife Institute of India, Dehradun

I gave it some thought later on & now i think Schaller made an error of ignoring the "selection bias" (it's not off topic, it's an interesting possible explaination). Example of Selection Bias:
Quote:In WW2 RAF bombers used to return riddled with bullet holes. They had to be armoured, but just enough, without making them too heavy. So, they could only put armour in only a few selected places.
Hungarian statistician Abraham Wald, founder of statistical sequential analysis, was asked to help the British decide where to add armor to their bombers. He suggested to put armour where the least number of bullet holes were being noted. And his method finally increased the British bombers' surival rate!

These bombers’ wounds showed where they could afford to be hit & still fly back home. Parts where lesser damage was being noted were actually vulnerable spots. The planes getting shot there, were simply not coming back & those were the areas that needed greater protection.
Schaller's observation sounds similar. The animals which he says "weren't incapacitated & retained full use of its legs" could be the ones that got away & actually be examples of unsuccessful hamstringing attempts! In which case, those couldn't have been used to draw any conclusion on hamstringing because they're the failures.
The ones that tigers did manage to hamstring were all dead.
Could be...

@peter it'd be good to hear your views on it.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

1 user Likes Rishi's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

Ricky Patel


*This image is copyright of its original author


Viraj Raut‎ 

He claims it's Waghdoh from may 2017 but most don't agree, I also don't think it looks like him.
Great video none the less




"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
6 users Like Pckts's post
Reply

Sri Lanka Apollo Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
*****
Moderators

(08-09-2018, 07:41 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 04:44 AM)Apollo Wrote: And finally if you want to talk about hamstring technique, start a separate thread in the questions section.

Hamstringing is closely related to tigers' predation of larger mammals, won't you agree?


I do agree and there is several photographic and video evidence of such predation technique in this very thread.
Reply

Netherlands peter Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
Moderators
( This post was last modified: 08-11-2018, 04:46 PM by peter )

TIGERS HUNTING RHINOS, BUFFALOS AND ELEPHANTS

a - Rhinos

A few years ago, I saw a number of photographs taken in northeastern India. The first one showed a female rhino and her calf. The second a large male tiger close to the rhinos. In order to get rid of him, the female and her calf swam to a densely vegetated island (third photograph). The tiger followed (fourth photograph). 

Some days later, I saw more photographs. In the first of these, the female rhino was on her own and badly mauled. Not in one place, but everywhere. This means he was on top of her for quite some time. The tiger no doubt had killed her calf. I wonder if the female survived.

Based on what I read in old books, there's no doubt that some male tigers specialize on calves of rhinos. This means they have to deal with adult female rhinos as well.  

b - Wild buffalos

In the tiger thread, I posted about Bengt Berg. He wrote a book about elephants, but also hunted tigers in northeastern India in the twenties and thirties of the last century. The largest tiger he shot (292,1 cm. in total length in a straight line and 565 pounds or 256,28 kg.) was more or less dwarfed by the largest he didn't shoot.  

Close to the Bhutan border, he was informed about a large tiger known as the 'Killer of Men'. Although he had killed a man, his real trade was wild buffalos. Not calves or females, but large males. Berg saw so many male buffalos with a broken neck, that he wanted to see the tiger. When he did, he didn't pull the trigger. He wanted the giant to pass on his genes. In his opinion, the 'Killer of Men' was very long and more robust than the tiger he shot in Bengal. 

This is a photograph of his print. Watch it from a distance:


*This image is copyright of its original author
 

This is the buffalo hunter. He was longer and quite a bit heavier than the 9.7 and 565-pound giant shot in Bengal. Well over 600 pounds, I think:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Baze shot a tiger of 338 cm. (HB 220 cm. and tail 118 cm.) and 260 kg. (575 pounds) in Vietnam. That male wasn't interested in medium-sized prey animals. He only hunted the largest buffalos.

More examples of tigers engaging wild buffalos and adult elephants? Find this book. It was first published in 1932. Natraj published a reprint in 2007:


*This image is copyright of its original author

     
c - Elephants

Here's another book that was discussed in the tiger thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Here's a bit more about the author:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Nicholls knew the region between the Brahmaputra and the foothills of the Himalayas well. In his book, only a few things were discussed. When you read it, you can almost feel the experience moving towards you. Some books are about the things not mentioned. This is one.  

During his fifty years in the northern part of Assam, Nicholls shot 28 tigers. The males he saw left quite an impression. More than once, he wrote they were very powerful animals. In his opinion they averaged 600 pounds.

Large tigers need to hunt large animals. In the northern part of Assam, some male tigers specialized on elephant calves:


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
  

Male tigers still hunt elephant calves in northern India. This photograph was taken in Dudhwa:
  

*This image is copyright of its original author


A century ago, in the northern part of India, elephant herds often had a tusker guarding the calves. According to Knowles (see above), male tigers and tuskers clashed at times. In his book, some of these were described.

Here's a photograph of a tiger killed by a tusker in Corbett in 1977:


*This image is copyright of its original author
  

d - To conclude

Tigers in northern India and Nepal are large animals. Everything I have strongly suggests they could be the largest wild big cats today. In the book of Knowles, I found measurements of 6 male tigers: they ranged between 9.8 - 10.6 in total length. Most of them were very robust as well.

In Cooch Behar, over a century ago, males averaged 461 pounds and about 9.2-9.3 'between pegs'. The longest, on account of a very long tail, was 9.10 'between pegs', meaning the Cooch Behar tigers were not exceptional in any way. In Royal Chitwan (to the west, nearly a century later), 7 males averaged 520 pounds (Sunquist). According to Nicholls, not an amateur, males in the northern part of Assam were even heavier. Recent photographs suggest northeastern India still has very large male tigers. 

Let's assume that an average adult male tiger (6 years and older) in northern India is about 500 pounds. These giants hunt for a living. Hunting takes a lot of energy. In order to keep the energy deficit limited, a male tiger needs to hunt medium-sized or large animals every 5-15 days. Killing a very large animal isn't very efficient. If a tiger kills a thousand-pound bovine, he could lose as much as 50% to scavengers. Furthermore, killing a large animal isn't easy. Calves of elephants, wild buffalos and rhinos, on the other hand, don't know how to defend themselves. This is the reason that some male tigers specialize on elephant, rhino or wild buffalo calves. 

Calves are protected. A tiger hunting calves of large animals has to deal with adults every time he attacks. Clashes with adult female elephants, rhinos and buffalos are bound to happen, that is. While some tigers perish during these conflicts, others learn to disable or even kill adult females.

Killing a female rhino or buffalo isn't easy. Those who had the opportunity to study the methods used by these specialists concluded they were skilled killers. The 'Killer of Men' from Bhutan knew how to quickly break the neck of a large male buffalo. The male tiger following the female rhino and her cub in Assam (see -a-) was on top of her. She survived, but was badly wounded. I read about another male suspected of killing a number of (adolescent and adult) rhinos recently. Knowles wrote about male tigers hunting elephant calves. They were always confronted by adult females. Tuskers and male tigers often clashed.

What I'm saying is that tigers hunting calves of gaurs, rhinos, buffalos and elephants will be confronted by adult females defending their calf. Corbett described a fight between a tiger and a small herd of buffalos, R.C. Morris wrote a letter to the JBNHS about a fight between a male tiger and a male gaur and one of the tigers measured by Ullas Karanth was killed by a gaur. I recently read a report about a tiger and a female rhino found dead in close proximity. There's a lot more in old books. 

If a male tiger survives an encounter with a female rhino, buffalo or elephant, chances are he could progress from calves to adolescents or adult females over time. The 'Killer of Men' from Bhutan was an example. He didn't hunt calves, but large males buffalos only. Some of the male tigers featuring in the book of Knowles seemed to hunt large immature and adult female elephants. Tuskers knew that male tigers were dangerous. This is why they followed and confronted them. 

I know that biologists today only trust their own eyes, but that doesn't mean that every report about a fight between a tiger and a female gaur, buffalo, rhino or elephant can be dismissed as unreliable. In Russia, biologists had to adapt their opinion on tigers and bears ('too dangerous') to a degree. In India, they might have to change their opinion on tigers hunting large animals as well.
8 users Like peter's post
Reply

Indonesia P.T.Sondaica Offline
Member
**

@peter so tiger not hunting weak sick rhino? 
They hunting adult prime rhino?
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

Monu Dubey Pench
Chota charger 
18 month old cub
With baysan kill


Pench mp





Amol Bagadia

Munna attempting a Kill



"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
3 users Like Pckts's post
Reply

India Rishi Online
Moderator
*****
Moderators

(08-12-2018, 12:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Amol Bagadia

Munna attempting a Kill




When was this? Munna seems to be in very good condition for his present age here...
"Everything not saved will be lost."

Reply

Canada Wolverine Online
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 08-12-2018, 11:56 AM by Wolverine )

(08-11-2018, 04:55 AM)peter Wrote:  
 c - Elephants


A century ago, in the northern part of India, elephant herds often had a tusker guarding the calves. According to Knowles (see above), male tigers and tuskers clashed at times. In his book, some of these were described.

I could confirm by personal experience that elephants do afraid of tigers. In Palamau (Betla) national park in 1993 our riding tourist elephant faced a tiger who was resting in a cave in distance 10-15 meters from us. Since I'm a bit short sighted I was not able to see the eyes of tiger in the cave darkness despite my fellow and the mahout several times told me that tiger is watching us. I asked the mahout to move elephant closer to the cave. When we approached in distance 10-15 meters from cave entrance suddenly the elephant started to tremble violently, with shake waves through all the animal's body from trunk to the tail. The animal was quite scared or at least very nervous in the presence of the big cat. This violent vibrations continued several minutes. I started to offer to mahout money to move the elephant even closer but he refused. Than I got mad to him because I didn't succeed to see the burning eyes of the tiger despite my other tourist fellow clearly saw.
But we have to take into account that Asiatic elephants in general are bit coward animals, they easily panic. There are cases when only a close roar of panther could cause whole elephant heard to flee away or start panic.
Here as pointed Rishi the important question is how tiger kill a giant herbivore (bovines excluded because they are not so gigantic). As we can see from this videos even for big prides of lions consisting of 14-20 cats is quite difficult to hunt subadult elephant and kick it down even when the lions in big numbers like grapes cover the victim's body:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgx8Ah-hNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4nG4JsAyKY


 For solitary cat as tiger this should be very-very-very difficult...
1 user Likes Wolverine's post
Reply

India parvez Offline
Tiger Maharshi
*****

I explained it clearly in a video i made of jaguar. No doubt it takes time to understand it. But take your own time to digest it. Tigers are of course in my opinion the strongest animal pound for pound among all the big mammals. The rhinos were once the strongest IMO. But tigers overtook that title from them by being extremely agile, mounting on top of them and inflicting severe injuries and by dominating them and even killing them in quite a number of cases. They achieved robustness in all body parts by becoming the invincible creatures after the 1857 Indian revolt after which humans became weaker and began using advanced weapons for killing wildlife, but before 1857 i believe they used axes, knives, swords etc. Before this period, tigers  perhaps just inflicted severe wounds by being agile, but after this period they became stronger pound for pound IMO hence they achieved the ability to kill the big game like rhinos more effectively. Tigers post 1857 became invincible creatures by the downfall of human era. Man eaters began to emerge after this period but mainly in 20th century or late 19th century. During pre 1857, there were no man eating tigers. If at all by chance, they were, they used to be killed by the kings and their soldiers IMO.



1 user Likes parvez's post
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
2 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB