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Wolverine · 07-30-2018, 10:35 PM

(07-30-2018, 01:43 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: Photos of tigers eating rhinos have been shown before, here the important ones are those showing the actual attack on a healthy, free moving individual.

Absolutely agree with you.
Here the problem is that rhino habitat is not very suitable to make films as dry forests of Central India. In Kasiranga the immensly tick grass reaches 5-6 meters high is almost inpossible for filming. But in parks like Dudhva or Bardya the filming should be eaisier.
Concerning elephants. Jim Corbett describes in details a case when a couple of tigers succeeded to kill an adult male elephant. The tigers during mating obviously became mad to the elephant for interupting their intimacy and acted coordinately. For all his long life in jungles Corbett decsribes only one such a case of elephant victim.
We live in 21th century. Everybody now has a cell phone, in the end of 20th century everybody had a basic camera. If somebody has the opportunity to travel in different parks in all parts of India probably he has enough money for this. If such a guy states that he has personally witnessed "many carcasses of elephants killed by tigers" probably he should be able to get his basic camera or cell phone out of his pocket and make a photo.

Pckts · 07-30-2018, 11:05 PM

(07-30-2018, 10:35 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 01:43 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: Photos of tigers eating rhinos have been shown before, here the important ones are those showing the actual attack on a healthy, free moving individual.

Absolutely agree with you.
Here the problem is that rhino habitat is not very suitable to make films as dry forests of Central India. In Kasiranga the immensly tick grass reaches 5-6 meters high is almost inpossible for filming. But in parks like Dudhva or Bardya the filming should be eaisier.
Concerning elephants. Jim Corbett describes in details a case when a couple of tigers succeeded to kill an adult male elephant. The tigers during mating obviously became mad to the elephant for interupting their intimacy and acted coordinately. For all his long life in jungles Corbett decsribes only one such a case of elephant victim.
We live in 21th century. Everybody now has a cell phone, in the end of 20th century everybody had a basic camera. If somebody has the opportunity to travel in different parks in all parts of India probably he has enough money for this. If such a guy states that he has personally witnessed "many carcasses of elephants killed by tigers" probably he should be able to get his basic camera or cell phone out of his pocket and make a photo.

It's not easy to get photos in Central India either, I can't tell you how many times we'd be driving and the stench of rotting flesh would engulf us, the guides would say that there is a Gaur carcass over there killed by CM or a tiger family a few days back, but we could see nothing but we sure could smell it. This idea that you must see a photo to be convinced gets in the way of the true nature of the wild.
The guides know a million times more than us, we see a gathering of photos and think that somehow represents the majority, but it's really a fraction of what actually occurs. The guides are literal locals, they live in surrounding villages and have been working in these parks their entire lives, most of them can't even correctly ID which Tiger is which but they certainly have stories on top of stories that you'll never read about in the caption of a guest who was on safari for the first time and happened to capture an intriguing moment.
99% of the people that actually go on safari don't post on FB or IG, a lot of them don't even have good cameras or care about that even, its still a minority who do post, that number may continue to grow obviously but it's still not the norm.

Shir Babr · 07-31-2018, 08:24 AM

(07-30-2018, 11:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 10:35 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 01:43 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: Photos of tigers eating rhinos have been shown before, here the important ones are those showing the actual attack on a healthy, free moving individual.

Absolutely agree with you.
Here the problem is that rhino habitat is not very suitable to make films as dry forests of Central India. In Kasiranga the immensly tick grass reaches 5-6 meters high is almost inpossible for filming. But in parks like Dudhva or Bardya the filming should be eaisier.
Concerning elephants. Jim Corbett describes in details a case when a couple of tigers succeeded to kill an adult male elephant. The tigers during mating obviously became mad to the elephant for interupting their intimacy and acted coordinately. For all his long life in jungles Corbett decsribes only one such a case of elephant victim.
We live in 21th century. Everybody now has a cell phone, in the end of 20th century everybody had a basic camera. If somebody has the opportunity to travel in different parks in all parts of India probably he has enough money for this. If such a guy states that he has personally witnessed "many carcasses of elephants killed by tigers" probably he should be able to get his basic camera or cell phone out of his pocket and make a photo.

It's not easy to get photos in Central India either, I can't tell you how many times we'd be driving and the stench of rotting flesh would engulf us, the guides would say that there is a Gaur carcass over there killed by CM or a tiger family a few days back, but we could see nothing but we sure could smell it. This idea that you must see a photo to be convinced gets in the way of the true nature of the wild.
The guides know a million times more than us, we see a gathering of photos and think that somehow represents the majority, but it's really a fraction of what actually occurs. The guides are literal locals, they live in surrounding villages and have been working in these parks their entire lives, most of them can't even correctly ID which Tiger is which but they certainly have stories on top of stories that you'll never read about in the caption of a guest who was on safari for the first time and happened to capture an intriguing moment.
99% of the people that actually go on safari don't post on FB or IG, a lot of them don't even have good cameras or care about that even, its still a minority who do post, that number may continue to grow obviously but it's still not the norm.

I just said that because the man himself, who seems to be a good (amateur) wildlife photographer judging from his fb posts, said he has 200 photos of the entire event, the photo he shared of the tiger feeding on the rhino seems to have taken place at an open spot . Over the years people have claimed that the killing of adult rhinos and even elephants is not uncommon in some locations, and I'm not talking about colonial era claims, but this century. I remember reading an article a couple of years back claiming that recently tigers killed 20 rhinos in a single year in Kaziranga I think, with no details and no nothing at all for such remarkable incidents in, as @Wolverine pointed out, an era where cameras are so ubiquitous. I got to the point where I just became suspicious of poaching being reported as tiger predation on adult megaherbivores just becoming normal, which is an extraordinary claim. You might think that if someone managed to film that incredible snow leopard video of an event that not only nobody had ever described, but that nobody would have even believed, such claims of adult pachyderms being "commonly" killed would have been more seriously sought after by naturalists and photographers, as with the lions of Savuti; I shared a video that I found on youtube of a Sunda clouded leopard hoisting a monkey carcass up a tree, a behavior that was never reported before. The video has less than 40 views. Much rarer incidents have been recorded from rarer species without people making a big deal out of it.

Jimmy · 07-31-2018, 11:28 AM

My personal opinion is It's pretty hard to actually believe for me a tiger delivering a nape bite or a neck bite to a rhino to the point of breaking it! With due respect to the man who faithfully filmed it, the norm i imagine would be something like with bull gaur i.e. causing injuring to back/spine with repeated bites or hamstring it and feeding it alive. An adult rhino's skin, bones, neck girth and thick skin pads encircling the neck would be more tougher than those of wild bovines and the scenario narrated by the cameraman is entirely different. Hope he was not too carried away with what he saw to the point of exaggerating the narration. lets see how the scenario develops in up coming days, much appreciation and kudos to the cameraman for filming those great events... ... At last, forget about a cameraman not filming a rhino kill in all these years, no one has ever filmed tiger killing an adult wild buffalo, Must be it needs a great amount of luck than anything in those type of terrain to witness any sort of kill let alone one of those magnitude.

Wolverine · 08-02-2018, 03:58 AM

(07-31-2018, 11:28 AM)Jimmy Wrote: My personal opinion is It's pretty hard to actually believe for me a tiger delivering a nape bite or a neck bite to a rhino to the point of breaking it!

The neck of Indian rhino is as wide as chest of buffalo, the blood vessels deep inside the flesh and unaccessable. Only predator as Smilodon populator or other ancient saber teeth cats probably are capable to make a deadly neck bite on rhino.
Probably a tiger in order to kill a rhino need to accept a strategy of canids, like wolves, to attack the rhino in less dangerous back parts of the body, hind legs and cause a sufficient blood lost or start eating the rhino alive as Jimmy pointed. What wolves and other canids are doing dealing with bisons or other huge hoofed animals - deep bite, jump of the range, again deep bite and again jump of, the animal start slowly to lose his blood and get weak.

But here stays a big problem - tiger is not a wild dog, he is a cat and cats kill herbivores mainly by attacking frontal and hence stronger parts of the animal, by neck bike and strangulation. The question is: does tiger is capable to behave as a wolf or wild dog? Probably a killing of rhino by tiger should somehow be like this: tiger approach the rhino from behind, strong bite on hind legs, jump off to safe distance when rhino turn around , again bite and so on... After a couple of days rhino start weakening from blood lost and due to high tropical humidity the wounds start infecting causing in the animal high fever. Tiger is patient, he stays around for several days and wait. I mean the killing of rhino can not be a single event, it should be a process... In order a camera operator to film it he has also to stick around the rhino for several days...
But until I don't see such a hunt I cant believe that such a think is possible...very hard to imagine it..

Spalea · 08-02-2018, 05:15 AM

@Wolverine :

About #1310: I have read such a scenario you described as concerns the Tsavo lions ("The lions of Tsavo" by Bruce D. Patterson). When two males start to kill a buffalo. The former in front of it and drawing its attention, the latter biting its Achille tendon and waiting... The buffalo being quickly no more able to move, then to stand up.

Of course an african buffalo isn't an adult rhino, thus the entire process can only take an hour.

The buffalos are the mean prey of the Tsavo no-maned lions...

I'm agree with you: an actual tiger, how powerful it could be, isn't configured like a smilodon. So I cannot imagine it jumping on the rhino's back and inflicting it a mortal bite.

Jimmy · 08-02-2018, 01:35 PM

(08-02-2018, 03:58 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 11:28 AM)Jimmy Wrote: My personal opinion is It's pretty hard to actually believe for me a tiger delivering a nape bite or a neck bite to a rhino to the point of breaking it!
The neck of Indian rhino is as wide as chest of buffalo, the blood vessels deep inside the flesh and unaccessable. Only predator as Smilodon populator or other ancient saber teeth cats probably are capable to make a deadly neck bite on rhino.
Probably a tiger in order to kill a rhino need to accept a strategy of canids, like wolves, to attack the rhino in less dangerous back parts of the body, hind legs and cause a sufficient blood lost or start eating the rhino alive as Jimmy pointed.

Probably a killing of rhino by tiger should somehow be like this: tiger approach the rhino from behind, strong bite on hind legs, jump off to safe distance when rhino turn around , again bite and so on... After a couple of days rhino start weakening from blood lost and due to high tropical humidity the wounds start infecting causing in the animal high fever. Tiger is patient, he stays around for several days and wait. I mean the killing of rhino can not be a single event, it should be a process... In order a camera operator to film it he has also to stick around the rhino for several days...
But until I don't see such a hunt I cant believe that such a think is possible...very hard to imagine it..

*This image is copyright of its original author

Well well what do we know, i analyzed the only seen photo above^ the tiger definitely is devouring the exact spot (right behind the neck, just top of shoulder blades). I know for sure this certainly is no back side of the rhino, As is plausible most often they scavenge rhino carcass or infirm individuals this way. A similar photo i searched on the net and then flipped, rotate, edited with red box to show the anatomy of the rhino, which is in similar position to the above one. Notice the tiger is feasting on the nape region

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, judging by the photo, it looks like the tiger is starting to feast from where it inflicted the deepest wounds and thus easier to obtain meat from. This suggest it might have been prolonged fight where the wound started to become deeper and bigger. However, the cameraman did not mention any wounds prior to the tiger breaking it's back which is quite astonishing. Now the only thing that seems certain is the rhino was not a full adult- if considering the tiger can break it's neck in one go. He himself said that it was 4-5 times tiger's weight so possibly 1000 kgs. and since the rhino was alone and feeding it was likely independent of it's mother (at around three years of age, the mother chases it's calves and from around 10 years of age attains it's full body weight) So all in all i say it looks impressive feat to me just cause the tiger dispatched the hunt so quickly (going by the pic and cameraman). Now in my mind there are various possibilities and may i say realities as in the case with any animal fights that is "What if's", what if the rhino was not in prime health, diseased, emaciated etc etc, which again we cannot frankly judge in any kind of hunt, No two animal can be 100% we dont' know the underlying weakness of that animal in that particular moment in time. It would have been incredible if only we could see all the sequence; Definitely looks like a nape bite kill-edited

Shir Babr · 08-02-2018, 02:09 PM

@Jimmy
I think the photograph shows the hind quarters. If it was the shoulder as you say the torso would be protruding behind it since it's much wider.

Rishi · 08-02-2018, 02:15 PM

(08-02-2018, 01:35 PM)Jimmy Wrote:
(08-02-2018, 03:58 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 11:28 AM)Jimmy Wrote: My personal opinion is It's pretty hard to actually believe for me a tiger delivering a nape bite or a neck bite to a rhino to the point of breaking it!
The neck of Indian rhino is as wide as chest of buffalo, the blood vessels deep inside the flesh and unaccessable. Only predator as Smilodon populator or other ancient saber teeth cats probably are capable to make a deadly neck bite on rhino.
Probably a tiger in order to kill a rhino need to accept a strategy of canids, like wolves, to attack the rhino in less dangerous back parts of the body, hind legs and cause a sufficient blood lost or start eating the rhino alive as Jimmy pointed.

Probably a killing of rhino by tiger should somehow be like this: tiger approach the rhino from behind, strong bite on hind legs, jump off to safe distance when rhino turn around , again bite and so on... After a couple of days rhino start weakening from blood lost and due to high tropical humidity the wounds start infecting causing in the animal high fever. Tiger is patient, he stays around for several days and wait. I mean the killing of rhino can not be a single event, it should be a process... In order a camera operator to film it he has also to stick around the rhino for several days...
But until I don't see such a hunt I cant believe that such a think is possible...very hard to imagine it..

*This image is copyright of its original author

Well well what do we know, i analyzed the only seen photo above^ the tiger definitely is devouring the exact spot (right behind the neck, just top of shoulder blades). I know for sure this certainly is no back side of the rhino, As is plausible most often they scavenge rhino carcass or infirm individuals this way. A similar photo i searched on the net and then flipped, rotate, edited with red box to show the anatomy of the rhino, which is in similar position to the above one. Notice the tiger is feasting on the nape region

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, judging by the photo, it looks like the tiger is starting to feast from where it inflicted the deepest wounds and thus easier to obtain meat from. This suggest it might have been prolonged fight where the wound started to become deeper and bigger. However, the cameraman did not mention any wounds prior to the tiger breaking it's back which is quite astonishing. Now the only thing that seems certain is the rhino was not a full adult- if considering the tiger can break it's neck in one go. He himself said that it was 4-5 times tiger's weight so possibly 1000 kgs. and since the rhino was alone and feeding it was likely independent of it's mother (at around three years of age, the mother chases it's calves and from around 10 years of age attains it's full body weight) So all in all i say it looks impressive feat to me just cause the tiger dispatched the hunt so quickly (going by the pic and cameraman). Now in my mind there are various possibilities and may i say realities as in the case with any animal fights that is "What if's", what if the rhino was not in prime health, diseased, emaciated etc etc, which again we cannot frankly judge in any kind of hunt, No two animal can be 100% we dont' know the underlying weakness of that animal in that particular moment in time. It would have been incredible if only we could see all the sequence; Definitely looks like a nape bite kill-edited

I think you are right. Although a kill by spine-breaking seems physically impossible for a tiger as far as a rhino is concerned, even if it's young adult. That's hard enough even with gaurs & boars...

I believe the tiger mounted the swamped rhino & started gnawing its way in. The rhino burst an artery & bled out.

Atleast that seems more plausible to me.

(08-02-2018, 02:09 PM)Shir Babr Wrote: @Jimmy
I think the photograph shows the hind quarters. If it was the shoulder as you say the torso would be protruding behind it since it's much wider.

The viewing angle is different. It's definitely not hindquarters. You can see the foreleg fold & the shoulder-blades (Google an indian rhino skeleton).

Jimmy · 08-02-2018, 07:10 PM

@Shir Babr I am sure 100% thats the front end of the rhino tiger is eating, the 1st pic is taken from slightly lower view point (notice the tiger looming over the photographer) whereas the 2nd one is taken from higher point like standing person taking a pic downwards, and the angle is also from rhino's belly region, otherwise both are in pretty similar posture.

Wolverine · 08-03-2018, 01:57 AM

In order tiger to kill a rhino by nape bite a major blood vessel should be close to the skin surface, but the nape of the rhino is enormously robust, 3 times more robust than the nape of African buffalo and from hundreds of photos and videos we have from Africa I dont remember lions to kill buffalos by nape bite, they usually seek to kick the animal down and strangulate it by getting buffalo's nose.
Look with what amazing speed is capable to rotate rhino around its axle, what should do a tiger when the rhino start rotating with mad speed:

Feeding from one particular spot of the carcass doesn't necessary mean killing it by applying a strike in same point of the body, we cant be sure from the image that the rhino hadn't wounds in other parts of body. For me killing an adult rhino by nape bite looks close to impossible. Maybe I'm wrong.

Rishi · 08-03-2018, 05:20 AM

(08-03-2018, 01:57 AM)Wolverine Wrote: In order tiger to kill a rhino by nape bite a major blood vessel should be close to the skin surface, but the nape of the rhino is enormously robust, 3 times more robust than the nape of African buffalo and from hundreds of photos and videos we have from Africa I dont remember lions to kill buffalos by nape bite, they usually seek to kick the animal down and strangulate it by getting buffalo's nose.

Look with what amazing speed is capable to rotate rhino around its axle, what should do a tiger when the rhino start rotating with mad speed...

Why? Major artery are only 6-inches odd deep.

The first post #1,292 mentions a key point to be kept in consideration;

(07-29-2018, 10:44 PM)sanjay Wrote: ...that was grazing in a swamp and was in a relatively vulnerable position. The tiger sprang on to the top of the rhino from the higher bank of the swamp...

Young elephants seem to be barely able to move with a male lion on top of it, on hard soil. Rhinos have even weaker legs. With the tiger on it, chances are, they'll sink in the mud & he'll simply get stuck.

Otherwise, only a fool of a tiger would try that on dry ground.

Wolverine · 08-03-2018, 08:25 AM

(08-03-2018, 05:20 AM)Rishi Wrote: Why? Major artery are only 6-inches odd deep.

"Only" 6 inches deep? Buddy, how many animals in the planet have artery 6 inches deep, tiger teeth show up only 2-2,3 inches... Digging a huge hole in the nape aria in alive titanic beast with quick reactions sounds incredible. Yes, the only possible explanation is that this particular rhino stucked in the mud and cant move freely otherwise it can easily roll over on the ground and smash the tiger. Actually that was not an adult rhino, it had mass around 900-1000 kg, while average body mass of adult male rhino is 2,2 tons.

Rishi · 08-03-2018, 08:39 AM

(08-03-2018, 08:25 AM)Wolverine Wrote: "Only" 6 inches deep? Buddy, how many animals in the planet have artery 6 inches deep, tiger teeth show up only 2-2,3 inches... Digging a huge hole in the nape aria in alive titanic beast with quick reactions sounds incredible. ,
Yes the only possible explanation is that this particular rhino stucked in the mud and cant move freely otherwise it can easily roll over on the ground and smash the tiger. Actually that was not an adult rhino, it had mass around 900-1000 kg, while average body mass of adult male rhino is 2,2 tons.

Agreed, except the rolling part. They have a hard time getting to their feet from lied down posture. They are uncomfortable & vulnerable in that posture.

Now i don't know if tigers can hamstring them & get latched to their hindquarters while eating them alive like they do with gaurs. So, i'd rather not comment on that.

Shir Babr · 08-03-2018, 08:39 AM

(08-03-2018, 08:25 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(08-03-2018, 05:20 AM)Rishi Wrote: Why? Major artery are only 6-inches odd deep.
"Only" 6 inches deep? Buddy, how many animals in the planet have artery 6 inches deep, tiger teeth show up only 2-2,3 inches... Digging a huge hole in the nape aria in alive titanic beast with quick reactions sounds incredible. Yes, the only possible explanation is that this particular rhino stucked in the mud and cant move freely otherwise it can easily roll over on the ground and smash the tiger. Actually that was not an adult rhino, it had mass around 900-1000 kg, while average body mass of adult male rhino is 2,2 tons.

No need to argue about that since this is what the person said:

"--Rajarshi Banerji: Pl read narrative. It broke the grazing rhino's neck, jumping in from a vantage point. Didn't pierce its hide much at that stage."

So NO biting and the rhino wasn't stuck in mud. He claimed that the tiger jumped on top of the unsuspecting rhino when it was feeding, breaking his neck on impact...

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