The Mighty Mapogos

[BA0701]

(12-15-2024, 08:54 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(12-13-2024, 10:43 PM)BA0701 Wrote: We were discussing the situation at Elephant Plains, on the Kruger thread, and it got me thinking about the things that happened back then. The loss of Rasta was a really big blow, just as the loss of KT was even bigger, but, I still believe that the loss of Dreadlocks, to poachers, was the biggest loss to the 6 Mapogos. They had been able to regroup and recover from all of the others, and Dreadlocks played a big role in that. Once Dreadlocks was killed, the end of the Mapogo reign came relatively quickly afterwards.

Yeah, they were still the strongest coalition around before Dreadlocks died, though even before his death, they had already given up on their entire north and east territory, accepting the Majingilane rule, which came with Rasta's death and PB's injuries. Even after PB very quickly full recovery, they never attempted to challenge Majingilane for Londolozi, Northern Sector or MalaMala. I think, however, that if Mr.T had not killed the Ximungwe cubs, bringing the females back to estrus, there might have been a chance for them to make another move against Majingilane.

Still, technically speaking, Dreadlocks wasn't poached, to say he was poached would be to say someone illegally sneaked into the reserve and shot him, but he was killed outside Sabi Sands and the demand to kill him instead of allowing him to get darted and brought back, came from leaders of some local tribes.

But anyway, back to the dynamics, lion strategy or whatever, one should give full credit to Majingilane, I'm sure luck always plays its role, but the bond, intelligence, coordination and teamplay of the Majingis was out of this world, they had competition and clashes with coalitions of 6 ( Mapogo, Matimba ), 5 ( Bboys ), 4 ( Selati ), 3 ( Sand Rivers ) and never lost any members, hell, no member has even been seriously injured, their only lost ever was that of 5th in their first territorial challenge, after that they went into an insane spree off successfully competing with other males.

The Ximungwe are still suffering from what Mr. T did, they have never recovered from it. If the elder Xim lioness is unable to give birth, and raise offspring to adulthood, his actions may, yet, result in the eradication of that pride.

As for Dreadlocks death, yes, perhaps poached is a poor choice of words, but he was still killed by humans, and it resulted in the downfall of the coalition, shortly afterwards.

As for the Majins, yes, it does seem as if they, as a group, learned a tremendous amount from the loss of the 5th. I have seen people ponder how powerful and dominant they may have been had he not suffered that fate, but, in all honesty, as you mentioned, I am not sure they could have done any better than they did without him, not sure it is possible. Reply

[BA0701]

(12-15-2024, 09:59 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(12-14-2024, 02:41 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Dreadlocks was the “nail in coffin” I guess for the mapogo I know we can’t do what ifs but if dreadlocks had been around when the selatis arrived I think things would be different Mr T was the only one that was “healthy” and in fighting condition in 2012… but whatever happened to Rasta we know the majinagline caught pretty boy but he survived I mean he was beaten pretty badly

Mr.T was still primeish, but the others were in fighting condition too, just not as strong as Mr.T, it was the fights against the Selatis in early 2012 that left PB and Makhulu too weak to compete. Guides thought at the time that Mapogo were favored against the much younger Selatis and I don't blame them, had PB not been caught alone, they may have had the upper hand, but after that they were doomed.

Rasta vanished at the same time PB showed up badly injured ( in late July 2010 ), and 2 Majingis were reported to have injuries too, we even have pics of injured Majingi that date that exact same time.

Guides straight up said they thought Mapogo fought the Majingi, Rasta died and PB was badly beaten, the narrative only became complex and heated because of Mapogo fanatics creating drama, attacking guides, accusing reserve from poaching Rasta and so on.

It went pretty much like this, chronologically speaking:

1. Mr.T returns in early July 2010, Mapogo then move to Londolozi together for the first time in many many months, roaring while Majingis were further east:

*This image is copyright of its original author

2. Few days later, July 9, audio of some clash between lions happens, Majingis probably involved, maybe attacking Tsalala pride or something:

3. Few days later, July 2010, all 5 Mapogo filmed roaring in  Leopard Hills by Dave Pusey:

OG post is still up in the Londolozi blog to this very day, shared on July 14:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.leopardhills.com/blog/mapogo-welcome/

Dave Pusey confirming it was filmed on July 11:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Other posts at the time reporting the same thing:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Such stuff had been posted in this thread already years ago.

4. Few days later, around July 19, Pretty Boy shows up in Singita, he was badly injured, had a bent spine with punctures on his back and himdlimbs, he was also bullied by his 2 Othawa subadults sons while injured:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Days later ( July 30-August 2 ), Rob Vamphew films PB's injuries, 3:23:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Around the same time, in late July 2010, Rob Rutner takes pics of 4 Majingi with a lioness in the North, Arathusa. We can see fresh injuries in at least one of the Majingilane:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A month later, in August, when asked, Idube replies that yes, it seems Rasta was killed by Majingilane because he hasn't been seen since the fight that left PB badly injured and 2 Majingis seen badly battered:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Around a month later, early Octuber, Rob Vamhpew films 3 Mapogo ( Dreadlocks, Mr.T, and PB ) patrolling together, he tells his guests, at 2:05 of the video, that Pretty Boy was caught in a big fight when the Mapogo went to try to fight the new coalition, adding that PB and his twin brother took the brunt of that fight, and that "the other one [Rasta] died, we think":

5. Elehphant Plains reports for July and August says the Majingilane took over the North from the Mapogo after killing 2 of their members, Kinky Tail and Pretty Boy ( they mistook PB for Rasta ), the OG reports can be read here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-mig...s?page=104

6. In conclusion, we have a pretty straightfoward narrative: Majingi challenges Mlowathi, 5th & KT dies, Mr.T is ousted from the North, MalaMala and Londolozi > Mr.T goes back West > Mapogo start venturing East, mainly Londolozi, to investigate and confront the Majingilane > a big fight happens around July 19 leaving PB badly injured, Rasta dead and 2 Majingis pretty beaten up > By August 2010 Mapogos had relinquished their claims over any territory east of Singita, accepting the Majingilane rule as neighbors.

Obviously, there's no absolute proof Rasta was killed in the same fight PB was injured, nor even killed by Majingilane instead of by literally anything else, but given the evidence we have, using common sense, it's very likely that this was what exactly what happened.

Incredibly helpful post, my friend @Mapokser, and thank you, so much, for taking the time to put this together. You just put so many theories and rumors to bed. Reply

[Mapokser]

@Ttimemarti lions survive 2v1 all the time, nothinf extraordinary if PB survived a 4v2. Reply

[Ttimemarti]

(12-15-2024, 11:51 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Ttimemarti lions survive 2v1 all the time, nothinf extraordinary if PB survived a 4v2.

I meant as in like Mr T was beaten multiple times and didn’t look that bad and they killed kinky tail but let’s say they killed Rasta then got pretty boy I don’t think they’d let him go they killed two of them and now they let him go and left him with a spine injury like he was able to run away unless he was beaten up and Rasta saved him but was caught instead while pretty boy got away but idk Reply

[Mapokser]

Prime Majingilane caught a Selati and let him go after the beating.

Nothing strange or new. Reply

[Ttimemarti]

(12-16-2024, 12:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Prime Majingilane caught a Selati and let him go after q beating.

Nothing strange or new.

Never said strange or new but they’re killing eachother they aren’t fighting to hurt eachother they’re trying to kill eachother if his spine was almost broken how did he get away that’s all I’m saying they aren’t gonna just let him walk away and I don’t know much about the selatis, but everytime these two coalitions met a lion died so it’s a mystery of what happened plus if Rasta was killed by them or something else… is it strange or new that maybe Rasta was let’s say shot then pretty boy got caught alone but survived not saying that happened but is that absurd? Reply

[BA0701]

(12-16-2024, 12:45 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote:

(12-16-2024, 12:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Prime Majingilane caught a Selati and let him go after q beating.

Nothing strange or new.

Never said strange or new but they’re killing eachother they aren’t fighting to hurt eachother they’re trying to kill eachother if his spine was almost broken how did he get away that’s all I’m saying they aren’t gonna just let him walk away and I don’t know much about the selatis, but everytime these two coalitions met a lion died so it’s a mystery of what happened plus if Rasta was killed by them or something else… is it strange or new that maybe Rasta was let’s say shot then pretty boy got caught alone but survived not saying that happened but is that absurd?

Well, the males who are in the "winning" group are still risking quite a bit, as well. Not like the male who is being beaten is just going to lie there and accept his beating. Just like with the PCMs and Skorro Jr, they had him fair to rights, and he lashed out at, and bit, Makhunga on the lip, and the fight stopped. They did their damage, did what they were intending to do, which was send a message, hopefully driving him out, there was no need to risk even further injury to themselves. Reply

[Ttimemarti]

(12-16-2024, 12:57 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(12-16-2024, 12:45 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote:

(12-16-2024, 12:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Prime Majingilane caught a Selati and let him go after q beating.

Nothing strange or new.

Never said strange or new but they’re killing eachother they aren’t fighting to hurt eachother they’re trying to kill eachother if his spine was almost broken how did he get away that’s all I’m saying they aren’t gonna just let him walk away and I don’t know much about the selatis, but everytime these two coalitions met a lion died so it’s a mystery of what happened plus if Rasta was killed by them or something else… is it strange or new that maybe Rasta was let’s say shot then pretty boy got caught alone but survived not saying that happened but is that absurd?

Well, the males who are in the "winning" group are still risking quite a bit, as well. Not like the male who is being beaten is just going to lie there and accept his beating. Just like with the PCMs and Skorro Jr, they had him fair to rights, and he lashed out at, and bit, Makhunga on the lip, and the fight stopped. They did their damage, did what they were intending to do, which was send a message, hopefully driving him out, there was no need to risk even further injury to themselves.

True… very true. Reply

[afortich]

@Mapokser I think I read somewhere that PB and Rasta separated from the other Mapogos and went patrolling by themselves, so it was a 4 Majin vs 2 fight (PB and Rasta). Do you know anything about it?? Reply

[KM600]

(12-16-2024, 07:27 AM)afortich Wrote: @Mapokser I think I read somewhere that PB and Rasta separated from the other Mapogos and went patrolling by themselves, so it was a 4 Majin vs 2 fight (PB and Rasta). Do you know anything about it??

The only thing that’s known is all 5 Mapogos went East and it was said Majingilanes retreated after hearing all of them, atleast from what I heard. PB and Rasta didn’t return with the other 3 for unknown reasons, and it was actually quite weird they seemed to have split off but T went back West, given him and KT were the two who previously controlled their Eastern territory. There were also ppl ‘claiming’ all 5 Mapogos were seen back West after seeking out Majingilanes, but this was never proven. 

The Mapogos true downfall was not them splitting in the first place, or even the hierarchy between them, it was the fact all of them were very confident males and capable fighters. They felt untouchable, and it was true when all of them were together, but separated they made a lot of mistakes. KT chasing 4 Majingilanes himself and getting killed, Rasta and PB not returning West which led to Rasta disappearing, PB getting caught by Selatis, T getting caught by Selatis and killed. 

It’s like these boys didn’t have the necessary amounts of fear towards other male lions, or not even fear but just basic respect towards the power they too possessed. Makhulu and Dreadlocks were the smartest Mapogos, Makhulu often stayed with prides while the others went on missions and yet stayed untouched and Dreadlocks also come away from all fights pretty unscathed aside from a paw injury towards his latter years. Reply

[BigLion39]

(12-15-2024, 08:54 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Still, technically speaking, Dreadlocks wasn't poached, to say he was poached would be to say someone illegally sneaked into the reserve and shot him, but he was killed outside Sabi Sands and the demand to kill him instead of allowing him to get darted and brought back, came from leaders of some local tribes.

This makes so much more sense than what all those crazy fans talk on social media. So I'm assuming there were reports of a lion outside the lines at that time? Or did poachers lure him outside? Can you elaborate on this some more, very interesting as I've never jumped on the bandwagon of Dreds being poached inside Sabi Sands. Reply

[Mapokser]

@KM600 Mapogos went to Londolozi on July 5, Majingi didn't retreat as they were already further east.

All 5 came back west, we've literally a video of all 5 roaring in Leopard Hills, July 11.

And while PB was caught by Selatis, Mr.T wasn't, all 3 were together at a buffalo kill when Selatis charged and split them.

I also would strongly disagree with Mapogo having no respect or something similar towards other lions, this was only the case against nomads or young challengers, or when hey had numbers on their side, strong dominant prime males was another story.

Prime Makhulu bumped onto the impressive Sand River Male Dzunani in 2006 and retreated immediately. Mr.T and KT vacated Djuma and their claims over NK pride under pressure of the 2 powerful Gijima males, they were close by hearing the Gijima roaring and didn't reply, WE guide even talks about how both coalitions respected each other as they understood the equivalance in strength and didn't want to risk a confrontation. Even when Gijima invaded core Mlowathi territory in MalaMala to steal a kill from Mlowathi and 2 Styx females, Mr.T and KT were initially reluctant according to the MalaMala report, until Mr.T "true to his brutal nature, didn't take long to click and off he chased the intruders, with the kinky-tailed male soon following". So even when Gijima had the audacity of do what they did, Mlowathi still thought twice before confronting them.

Mapogo also straight up relinquished all their northern and eastern territory to Majingilane in August 2010, never tried anything despite still having 4 members. 

And although it is unfair to mention their nomadic time, Makhuku and PB were still in decent condition but were chased by nomadic Solo & Cleo, and easily dominated by Kruger males. Solo & Cleo who could at best stalemate lone Freddy Kruger.

@afortich nobody saw the fight, but looking at the injuries, it makes more sense to be 4v2 because 2 Majingi took quite some damage as well, besides, the other 3 Mapogo never left the west after July 5, so it's extremely unlikely they'd have been around, not to say that Majingis wouldn't have confronted 5 Mapogo when they were having trouble with just 2 weeks ago. Reply

[Mapokser]

@BigLion39 In 2015 someone reliable ( IIRC a ranger ) made a facebook post explaining what happened, and the head of the anti-poaching team from Sabi Sands at the time of the Mapogo ( Willem Botha ), made another post citing the previous post and confirming that yeah it was what happened. 

Basically Dreadlocks moved north towards Singita/Ottawa property and left the reserve ( fences were often destroyed by floods ), he killed some cattle and the leaders of IIRC 3 local tribes were pissed and demanded his death, the rangers tried to dart him and bring him back, but were threatened by the tribes. Weeks later Dreadlocks' skin was found with a poacher, probably the guy "hired" to shoot him. Reply

[Ttimemarti]

Poached… he was a lion being a lion killing animals to live he doesn’t know about humans laws he was poached… but basically what happened to dreadlocks also happened to the sand river pride and they killed all of them not to mention the other lions caught in snares in the west Reply