The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[tigerluver]

(10-27-2018, 03:38 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @tigerluver since many of us are not paleontologists and we don't follow all news what is the final opinion of the science: were actually cave lions really a "lions" (Panthera leo) or they were a diferent representatives of genus Panthera. Fossilis, spalea and Atrox? Was the American lion a "lion"?
In order to not get us in confusion it's gonna be great if you could answer shortly, like: "Yes, they were a lions!" or "No, they were not a lions!".

If not, to which current Pantherinae species they were more closely related - to lion, tiger or jaguar?

The cave lions (P. spelaea/fossilis) and the American lion (P. atrox) were not modern lions (P. leo). However, they are most closely related to the modern lion (P. leo). On the other hand, these species are most distant from the tiger (P. tigris) and a bit less distant, but still distant, from the jaguar (P. onca). Reply

[Wolverine]

(10-27-2018, 08:24 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 03:38 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @tigerluver since many of us are not paleontologists and we don't follow all news what is the final opinion of the science: were actually cave lions really a "lions" (Panthera leo) or they were a diferent representatives of genus Panthera. Fossilis, spalea and Atrox? Was the American lion a "lion"?
In order to not get us in confusion it's gonna be great if you could answer shortly, like: "Yes, they were a lions!" or "No, they were not a lions!".

If not, to which current Pantherinae species they were more closely related - to lion, tiger or jaguar?

The cave lions (P. spelaea/fossilis) and the American lion (P. atrox) were not modern lions (P. leo). However, they are most closely related to the modern lion (P. leo). On the other hand, these species are most distant from the tiger (P. tigris) and a bit less distant, but still distant, from the jaguar (P. onca).

Interesting, thanks. So in this case probably the name of this thread is better to be changed otherwise many non-profesional readers could be confused that the word is about lions, while these were different animals. Same as once upon a time smilodon was called "saber-tooth tiger" but actually has nothing to do with the tigers.
Probably: "Pleystocene Pantherinae cats" or something like this.

So in genus Panthera are 2 clades:

1. tiger and irbis

2. lion, jaguar, leop, Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox.

But if jaguar is bit more distant to those cats than modern lion, than inside clade 2 probably should be created sub-clade of "lion-like" Pantherinae cats: leo, spelaea and atrox. If lion is really bit closer to those cats than the jaguar than this create some headache, this a bit contradict the theory that spelaea and atrox were not lions. I'm not sure does the science allow to create termin: "lion-like" Pantherianae cats, "lion-like" mean they were a lions....in same time they didn't belong to specie Panthera leo…. Reply

[Richardrli]

For the service of the average enthusiast it's better IMO to keep referring to them as lions (because that's what they're most related to), as simply calling them "cats" doesn't exactly help to clarify what exactly they were. Reply

[Wolverine]

"Cave kinda lions" and "American kinda lion" …  Reply

[Shadow]

(10-27-2018, 09:53 AM)Wolverine Wrote: "Cave kinda lions" and "American kinda lion" … 

I would say, that it is best to keep calling animals as those are called officially and not start to create "alternate realities" in, should I say after all "amateur forums". It is of course ok to speculate and observe, but there is still science community with professionals, who change classifications when they see, that there is enough information and justification to do so. I don´t think, that people here have enough competence to create new classifications even though there can be reasons to make good estimations about future.

I would find it quite interesting if amateurs would start to make own realities ignoring what professionals are saying. Changing some classification for sure happens if and when there is enough information, which is agreed broadly in science community. Reply

[Wolverine]

(10-27-2018, 11:40 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 09:53 AM)Wolverine Wrote: "Cave kinda lions" and "American kinda lion" … 

I would say, that it is best to keep calling animals as those are called officially and not start to create "alternate realities" in, should I say after all  "amateur forums". It is of course ok to speculate and observe, but there is still science community with professionals, who change classifications when they see, that there is enough information and justification to do so. I don´t think, that people here have enough competence to create new classifications even though there can be reasons to make good estimations about future.

I would find it quite interesting if amateurs would start to make own realities ignoring what professionals are saying. Changing some classification for sure happens if and when there is enough information, which is agreed broadly in science community.

About what "alternative classification" are talking about? Probably you don't know that lion, jaguar and leopard are very closely related and create one group inside genus Panthera, while tiger and snow leopard are also closely related and create another group inside genus Panthera:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera Atrox are officially included in the firsts group. 
Before you insult somebody else first read some literature. Even wiki will be Ok for you if you want to make your first steps in this topic (see the Philogeny tree):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera

About change of what "official" names you talk about? The only official name in biology is this in Latin letters, others are only nick names. For example in Canada Puma concolor is called "cougar", in USA - "mountain lion", in Europe - "puma", in Florida - "panther". That is not important, important is what is written in Latin letters. In same way somebody could call Panthera fossilis "cave lion", somebody in Argentina could call it "cave ostrich" or "cave elephant". The "official" name of the animal is in Latin. But the nick names of the animals should not confuse the readers. "Lions" are only the animals who belong to specie Panthera leo.
Pahthera fossilis and P. Atrox didn't belong to P. leo so they were not "lions". Its easy like 2+2=4. Reply

[Shadow]

(10-28-2018, 05:05 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 11:40 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 09:53 AM)Wolverine Wrote: "Cave kinda lions" and "American kinda lion" … 

I would say, that it is best to keep calling animals as those are called officially and not start to create "alternate realities" in, should I say after all  "amateur forums". It is of course ok to speculate and observe, but there is still science community with professionals, who change classifications when they see, that there is enough information and justification to do so. I don´t think, that people here have enough competence to create new classifications even though there can be reasons to make good estimations about future.

I would find it quite interesting if amateurs would start to make own realities ignoring what professionals are saying. Changing some classification for sure happens if and when there is enough information, which is agreed broadly in science community.

About what "alternative classification" are talking about? Probably you don't know that lion, jaguar and leopard are very closely related and create one group inside genus Panthera, while tiger and snow leopard are also closely related and create another group inside genus Panthera:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera Atrox are officially included in the firsts group. 
Before you insult somebody else first read some literature. Even wiki will be Ok for you if you want to make your first steps in this topic (see the Philogeny tree):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera

About change of what "official" names you talk about? The only official name in biology is this in Latin letters, others are only nick names. For example in Canada Puma concolor is called "cougar", in USA - "mountain lion", in Europe - "puma", in Florida - "panther". That is not important, important is what is written in Latin letters. In same way somebody could call Panthera fossilis "cave lion", somebody in Argentina could call it "cave ostrich" or "cave elephant". The "official" name of the animal is in Latin. But the nick names of the animals should not confuse the readers. "Lions" are only the animals who belong to specie Panthera leo.
Pahthera fossilis and P. Atrox didn't belong to P. leo so they were not "lions". Its easy like 2+2=4.

I am talking about it, that when we have some names for animals in science community, it is better to keep those. I know quite good situation with these animals and that those are studied all the time. For instance what comes to panthera atrox, there  is research information (quite new one) saying, that it is closer to lion and tiger than jaguar, then again same time another one saying, that basically it is closer to lion and jaguar, than tiger. That is why I said, that it is better to wait and see (my opinion). It is interesting to see, what can be found out about this animal in future, but at least most research seem have one common feature, that it looks like to have had same origins as lion at some point and most research looks like to indicate, that lion is closest species or "sister species". For me it looked like a little bit jumping ahead of research at this point to start to think new names for well known american lion :) Who knows what next reports tell us. Maybe we have had after all some lion species there and only panthera leo survived to modern days... interesting subject of course. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(10-27-2018, 08:24 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 03:38 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @tigerluver since many of us are not paleontologists and we don't follow all news what is the final opinion of the science: were actually cave lions really a "lions" (Panthera leo) or they were a diferent representatives of genus Panthera. Fossilis, spalea and Atrox? Was the American lion a "lion"?
In order to not get us in confusion it's gonna be great if you could answer shortly, like: "Yes, they were a lions!" or "No, they were not a lions!".

If not, to which current Pantherinae species they were more closely related - to lion, tiger or jaguar?

The cave lions (P. spelaea/fossilis) and the American lion (P. atrox) were not modern lions (P. leo). However, they are most closely related to the modern lion (P. leo). On the other hand, these species are most distant from the tiger (P. tigris) and a bit less distant, but still distant, from the jaguar (P. onca).

Panthera atrox and Panthera fossils are the real and pure lion,  however, Panthera spelea may the hybrid lion species which continued other Panthera linage ? especially when spelaea developed into later Pleistocene,  the similarities between Cave lion(Panthera spelea) and tiger(Panthera tiger）may equivalent to jaguar(Panthera onca）and leopard(Panthera pardus） Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

A mosbach lion drinking the waterhole while the bison and horse waiting ?

*This image is copyright of its original author

 The evolution history of Lion's family tree Reply

[Shadow]

(10-28-2018, 06:12 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 08:24 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(10-27-2018, 03:38 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @tigerluver since many of us are not paleontologists and we don't follow all news what is the final opinion of the science: were actually cave lions really a "lions" (Panthera leo) or they were a diferent representatives of genus Panthera. Fossilis, spalea and Atrox? Was the American lion a "lion"?
In order to not get us in confusion it's gonna be great if you could answer shortly, like: "Yes, they were a lions!" or "No, they were not a lions!".

If not, to which current Pantherinae species they were more closely related - to lion, tiger or jaguar?

The cave lions (P. spelaea/fossilis) and the American lion (P. atrox) were not modern lions (P. leo). However, they are most closely related to the modern lion (P. leo). On the other hand, these species are most distant from the tiger (P. tigris) and a bit less distant, but still distant, from the jaguar (P. onca).

Panthera atrox and Panthera fossils are the real and pure lion,  however, Panthera spelea may the hybrid lion species which continued other Panthera linage ? especially when spelaea developed into later Pleistocene,  the similarities between Cave lion(Panthera spelea) and tiger(Panthera tiger）may equivalent to jaguar(Panthera onca）and leopard(Panthera pardus）

Here is one pretty new chart. It is interesting to see what kind of conclusions there are in upcoming years. There are still things to study for researchers. Reply

Attached Files

Image(s)
   

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Panthera leo maculatus
 Is the Panthera leo maculatus(spotted lion) just be an adult lion which retained the juvenile spotted pattern ? Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Way to the east——Pleistocene Eurasia,  a couple of cave lion appeared together with tiger,  in later Pleistocene North-Eastern Asia, cave lion would usually competed with tiger, as a matter of fact, in inner Mongolia also discovered that cave lion and tiger's fossil record appeared together at the same location

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Ghari Sher]

New article out on the new cub Spartak.
https://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/ancient-cave-lions-had-spots-believe-scientists-after-analysing-starving-cub-spartak-preserved-in-permafrost/

*This image is copyright of its original author

He appears to have faint spotting on his back, but it does not seem to be very extensive. Boris (who is identified as a bona fide cave lion by the author despite previous doubts that he may be a lynx) seems to be rather plain, and Uyan as we previously know had faint spots atop the head, not in a dissimilar place to Spartak I guess.
The spotting on the cubs doesn't seem to be as prominent or extensive as in extant lion cubs, which in my mind raises the likelihood that the adults had very plain coats indeed, moreso than the faintly-spotted coats of today's lions.

Just gorgeous. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(10-28-2018, 06:12 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: Panthera atrox and Panthera fossils are the real and pure lion,  however, Panthera spelea may the hybrid lion species which continued other Panthera linage ? especially when spelaea developed into later Pleistocene,  the similarities between Cave lion(Panthera spelea) and tiger(Panthera tiger）may equivalent to jaguar(Panthera onca）and leopard(Panthera pardus）

Nop, Panthera atrox and Panthera fossilis are not lions at all. These are completelly diferent species of animals, closelly related with lions just like the Longdang "tiger" Panthera zdanskyi is related with the true modern tiger Panthera tigris, but are not the same species or even subspecies.

Panthera spelaea is not a hybrid, but a diferent crono-species related with Panthera fossilis, that evolved in Eurasia. 

The similarities between cave lion "spelaea" and the modern tiger are just primitivism inhered from Panthera fossilis. Even Panthera atrox still have some of thos characteristics, but that doesn't mean that these are "tigers" at all. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(10-28-2018, 06:26 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
 The evolution history of Lion's family tree

That is a fan-made chart. This is another one that I found in the web:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The original image, actually published, is this:

*This image is copyright of its original author

@tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws had more information related this. Reply