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Pleistocene Big Cats
The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)
The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)
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The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)
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 (10-28-2018, 07:28 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: The "marozi" or spotted lion is not a real "species" at all. It is just a myth from Africa, where people says that had saw these animals. So no, there is no real spotted lions at all, and the sights probably are from "adult" lions that retained the spotts.  (10-28-2018, 06:26 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: The evolution history of Lion's family tree The problem is that in the biology I afraid does not exist such a taxonomic unit as "Lion's family". What does mean family? The only family lion (Panthera leo) belongs to is family Felidae. Here we need to enter into very basics of the biology: Family: FELIDAE Genus: PANTHERA Specie: Leo While: Family: FELIDAE Genus: PANTHERA Specie: Atrox There are no "lions" outside of specie Panthera leo. The fact that Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera Atrox evolved from same common ancestor (for example Panthera shawi) as Panthera leo (lion) doesn't mean that they are "lions". After the split they went in different directions of evolution and emerged as different species. Yes, this species are closely related, jaguar and lion are also closely related and the humans and chimpanzee are also closely related but nobody call people "chimps"... I agree that from all current species of genus Panthera the lion is most closely related to Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera atrox. So, If we want to imagine how looked like those gigantic powerful prehistoric predators, yes, we have to imagine some kind of lion image but still we cant be 100% sure what color of skin had for example P.atrox . All those paintings are only speculations of the painters. Actually I have always wanted this gigantic prehistoric predators to be a only lion's subspecies in order one day wild lions to be reintroduced in northern countries and to revive Ice Age landscapes in northern Eurasia and North America. I wish P spelaea and P.atrox to be a lion's subspecies, but unfourtunately seems they were not. 
@Wolverine :
Very basic of the biology again... We know that African lions and Asiatic Lions cannot reproduce together. Some Indian zoos director tried to do that, total failure, the engendered individuals were defect, flaw... Thus we can almost already say that African and Asiatic lions are two dictint species. Because that is that, the specy definition isn' t ? The reproduction ability between males and females within this same specy... At a pinch reproduction between lion and tiger (engendering liger and tigron...) gives less defect individuals, quite sterile but more autonomous. Thus I can easily admit that p. Atrox, cave lion and p. leo are different species... different species of lions ? Like the Asiatic elephant and the Africa elephant are two differents species of elephant... (11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: Thus I can easily admit that p. Atrox, cave lion and p. leo are different species... different species of lions ? They are different species of Panthera's. Here budy arise the philosophical question what does mean "lion"? Inside the genus Panthera there are/were many different species, all of them are more or less closely related. If you take a bunch of them- P.leo, P.fossilis and P.atrox, separate from other species like Panthera onca (jaguar), Panthera tigris (tiger), Panthera pardus and call them "lions", then you should create a separate taxonomic unit for "lions" inside genus Panthera. But since such a separate taxonomic unit does not exist its not clear what do you call "lions". Before many people called Panthera atrox a "giant jaguar" and probably they also had some reasons for that. 
Here we can see maybe a little bit same, what science community has been arguing latest century :) I am of course interested too in a way, but since science community researching these animals are still working on and there seems to be some open questions, it looks like this could be one endless argue at this point. One can say, that in no way lions and another, that for sure lions and impossible to say who is right today.
Maybe in a few years there are less grey area and who knows.... once it was panthera leo atrox, then panthera atrox.... what is it after 5 years... I don´t know and I don´t believe anyone saying, that "I do" :) That time is in future hopefully, when there are multiple researcher groups coming to same conclusions without contradictions. Maybe that time is soon, but now it still looks like to be so, that too many blind spots and some new research can give surprising new information. Interesting animals, I still think those as lion species even though not same as African lions. But we have so many different kind of dogs too, maybe that describes how I see lions and these cave lions with current information. I mean we have in dogs for instance shepherds, then retrievers etc. So we could compare in this way, labrador retriever as african lion, golden retriever as cave lion and for instance chesapeake bay retriever as american lion. Tiger then could be some... shepherd, leopard some terrier, whatever. Not the best example, but hopefully opens up how I see it. I can be wrong, but I haven´t seen here or in research documents (which I have seen so far) any reason to think in some other way yet. Interesting to see different kind of points of views always. But my main point is, that while debating it is good to remember, that no-one here can tell absolute truth in some issue, which is still studied and argued by scientists. Or maybe I have missed some brand new report, feel free to put a link here if there is some conclusive and broadly agreed document about these animals and what they should be considered to be.
@Shadow :
About #185: you put the dogs and the panthera felidae(s) on the same classification level as the dogs. Why not ? It's clear for me there is not one single specy of what we call dog. You take together a shepherd dog and a terrier dog, nothing happens... The dogs are considered by the scientists as a group called "canis lupus familiaris", this group and the "canis lupus" group forming a part of the canidae(s), I presume... That's logic !  (11-01-2018, 07:13 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:It' s said that scientists may want to try let this prehistoric cat bring back to life, it sounds interesting! If cave lion bring back to life, Canada would be the best place to live in the Holocene earth, well the Pleistocene Park may would come true in our lifetime ! These cave lion's remains are belonged to Asian cave lion, and probably belonged to the latest cave lion's population in Siberia Russian Far East (11-02-2018, 04:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow : I tried to explain why it is easy to think, that some big cats species can be thinked as "lion family" or "sister species" if those are from same progenitor and if animals have a lot of common features like general appearance and behaviour. In dogs there are many groups like shepherds, retrievers, terriers etc .etc. while all are stil canis lupus familiaris. Amongst wild big cats there are less same kind of groups, obviously because humans haven´t been messing up there as with dogs trying to develop some qualities. I think, that panthera is actually quite comparative with canis lupus familiaris, only thing, that with dogs chart is terribly big. But we have there groups, which can be called "shephed families", "retriever families" and so on because so many common features. I don´t see any obstacle to look at some big cats in same way if there are enough common features. It is very much depending about it, that how different people see situation and how much information there is to back up such thinking. Some things are more difficult to explain when not able to use own native language here :) I have to admit, that I didn´t quite get what you were saying in your reply to me so I can´t blame others if same kind of problems maybe. But if someone understood or not, still my main point was, that it is maybe too early for anyone to be too sure if these animals are called also in future lions or something else. I call those lions unless science community gives some better name(s) and give reasoning why. With current knowledge I personally keep it quite possible, that also in future we have these different lions to discuss about. But I can understand, that others might think in different way.  (11-02-2018, 12:52 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: Thus I can easily admit that p. Atrox, cave lion and p. leo are different species... different species of lions ? P. atrox was called the "giant jaguar" at one point because a study (Christiansen and Harris 2009) found that its skull was more similar to that of the jaguar than the lion. Genetic testing shows this similarity is due to convergent evolution rather than a genetic proximity between P. atrox and P. onca. (11-02-2018, 08:28 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: It' s said that scientists may want to try let this prehistoric cat bring back to life, it sounds interesting! Yes, returning to live of such a mighty predators as Panthera spalaea/ P. fossilis by genetics along with mammoths and all mammoth mega-fauna is really fascinating perspective. Probably is time in our forum to be created a special thread "Pleystocene Parks", in many other animal forums exist such a thread. In Russia now there are entusiastes who has already tried to make a real Pleystocene park but they suffer a lack of financing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_Park I have already created similar thread here called "Rewilding Europe" bot beside me and @Spalea nowbody writes there: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-rewilding-europe So if you Smilodon Rex create a thread "Pleystocene parks" it will be great. Hopefuly more entusiasts will be find to write in such a thread. (11-02-2018, 09:18 PM)Shadow Wrote:(11-02-2018, 04:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow : I was agree with you @Shadow . I only tried to draw up an hierarchy between species, subspecies and groups, because I confess I hadn't attached a great importance to these classification problems... And forget to add that among the extant felidae there are also the genus felis (the cats, lynx, puma and so on) and the genus acinonyx ( only one specy the cheetah) at the same level than the "canis lupus familiaris" and "canis lupus" groups among the canidae.. But I didn't criticize at all what you told... (11-03-2018, 12:32 AM)Spalea Wrote:Ok now I understand better what you were saying. And even if you would have been criticizing it would have been just ok. Sometimes (even many times...) it is possible to have some "great idea" in own thoughts and same time not noticing, that missing some relevant issue.(11-02-2018, 09:18 PM)Shadow Wrote:(11-02-2018, 04:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :  (08-31-2017, 07:11 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The family of the maneless form of lion had started their legacy as the giant pantherine long time ago, much earlier than other big cats. On the topic of cave lion-tiger relations, Baryshnikov (2016) interestingly describes the presence of both cave lion and tiger remains in the Pleistocene deposits of Geographical Society Cave in Primorsky Krai, Russian Far East, dating back to MIS 3. The tiger remains are radiocarbon dated to 34,000- 48,000 years BP. Tiger remains are much more numerous than those of lions, but due to problems with the stratigraphy, it is hard to tell if the two big cats were coeval, or merely inhabited the region intermittently with changes in climate. According to him: Quote:The absence of detailed stratigraphic correlation for the bone material precludes the possibility of demonstrating the coexistence of big cats: Panthera tigris and P. spelaea. In conditions of mosaic mountain landscape in the vicinity of the cave, the forest dwellers (Panthera tigris, P. pardus, Lynx lynx) could coexist with inhabitants of open vegetation (Panthera spelaea and the fossil hyena Crocuta ultima (Matsumoto, 1915)). However, it is not improbable that species with different ecological preferences were confined to different stratigraphical levels. The remains of felids and other Carnivora have been found in Geographical Society Cave within sediments formed during a warm Interstadial within MIS 3. The remains of southern species (Panthera tigris, Crocuta ultima) are represented there by large bone accumulations, whereas the fossils of boreal species (Panthera spelaea, Martes zibellina (L., 1758), Gulo gulo (L., 1758)) are scant. Most probably, Panthera tigris and P. pardus lived in the southern parts of Russian Far East only in warm climatic conditions (Interstadial, Interglacial), when the region had been predominantly forested; presumably, these species were absent in the region in colder periods of glaciations. https://www.zin.ru/journals/trudyzin/doc...hnikov.pdf  (11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Wolverine : The biggest reason of the failure is that the modern Asiatic lions were highly inbred. Historically, when the African lion and Asiatic lion met in the wild, they can produce the healthy offspring without any problem. (11-03-2018, 01:07 AM)Ghari Sher Wrote:(08-31-2017, 07:11 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The family of the maneless form of lion had started their legacy as the giant pantherine long time ago, much earlier than other big cats. The forestation of China in a grand scale started since the late Pleistocene. That's why in the mid Pleistocene, Panthera youngi used to live in the vicinity of the Chinese heartland, whereas Panthera spelaea had been pushed away to the extreme northern fringe in the late Pleistocene. |
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