The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[epaiva]

I have been looking for pictures of Skulls and Skeletons of Panthera fossilis  with out any luck, does somebody here in the Forum have pictures of Panthera fossilis Skulls and Skeletons? Reply

[Spalea]

(11-03-2018, 01:51 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Wolverine :

Very basic of the biology again...


We know that African lions and Asiatic Lions cannot reproduce together. Some Indian zoos director tried to do that, total failure, the engendered individuals were defect, flaw... Thus we can almost already say that African and Asiatic lions are two dictint species. Because that is that, the specy definition isn' t ? The reproduction ability between males and females within this same specy...

At a pinch reproduction between lion and tiger (engendering liger and tigron...) gives less defect individuals, quite sterile but more autonomous.


Thus I can easily admit that p. Atrox, cave lion and p. leo are different species... different species of lions ? Like the Asiatic elephant and the Africa elephant are two differents species of elephant...

The biggest reason of the failure is that the modern Asiatic lions were highly inbred.

Historically, when the African lion and Asiatic lion met in the wild, they can produce the healthy offspring without any problem.

Yes you're right... I forget that the totality of the extant Asiatic lions descend from a small dozen of individuals which survived at the Gir forest around 1910- 1920... Reply

[tigerluver]

(11-03-2018, 02:58 AM)epaiva Wrote: I have been looking for pictures of Skulls and Skeletons of Panthera fossilis  with out any luck, does somebody here in the Forum have pictures of Panthera fossilis Skulls and Skeletons?

No complete skeletons of P. fossilis have been found. The oldest skulls I am aware of the Wurm (1912) skull for Mauer, and the two Chateau skulls in the study of Argant. The former has been officially published but I cannot find the original document, just the tracing in Marciszak et al. (2014). The latter have not been published. There are a few more P. fossilis skulls published by Argant but those works are difficult to get on this side of the world. There are photos of mandibles published if you'd like to see some of those. Reply

[epaiva]

(11-03-2018, 05:41 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 02:58 AM)epaiva Wrote: I have been looking for pictures of Skulls and Skeletons of Panthera fossilis  with out any luck, does somebody here in the Forum have pictures of Panthera fossilis Skulls and Skeletons?

No complete skeletons of P. fossilis have been found. The oldest skulls I am aware of the Wurm (1912) skull for Mauer, and the two Chateau skulls in the study of Argant. The former has been officially published but I cannot find the original document, just the tracing in Marciszak et al. (2014). The latter have not been published. There are a few more P. fossilis skulls published by Argant but those works are difficult to get on this side of the world. There are photos of mandibles published if you'd like to see some of those.

@tigerluver
Thanks a lot for your valuable information, I really want to see those pictures Reply

[Wolverine]

@tigerluver what are the esimations about the maximum weight of P. fossilis?

- In 2015-2016 in Bashkiria (Russia) in cave called "Imanai" were discovered bones of 5-6 gigantic cave "lions", here is the article:

https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...-in-urals/
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/1...ed-russia/

*This image is copyright of its original author

-Did those bones belonged to P.spelaea or P.fossilis?

- I have red in Russian animal forums that the shoulder height of the largests specimens from Imanai cave was calculated to amazing 140 cm by (WHEELER and JEFFERSON). 
Is this true and real, shoulder height of 140 cm for sure mean weight more than 400 kg (880 pounds). 

- It is written in Russian forums that the jaw of that specimen or other specimen (I am not sure) from Imanai cave reached 315-317 mm and the radial bone was 40 cm long. If you have radial bone of 40 cm what will be the estimated shoulder height of the animal?


The upper radial bone is from African lion, while the lower is from cave "lion". We can see how larger was that prehistoric cat and what a monstrous creature it was:
If we assume that average African male lion is in average 180 kg than giant bone has belonged to animal about 2,5 times more massive - around450 kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Have you heard something like that and most importantly again on the base of largest bones and skulls discovered  what was the maximal weight of the P.fossilis? Do you think the largests P.fossilis could exceed 400 kg (880 lbs)? Reply

[epaiva]

(11-03-2018, 11:10 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @tigerluver what are the esimations about the maximum weight of P. fossilis?

- In 2015-2016 in Bashkiria (Russia) in cave called "Imanai" were discovered bones of 5-6 gigantic cave "lions", here is the article:

https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...-in-urals/
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/1...ed-russia/

*This image is copyright of its original author

-Did those bones belonged to P.spelaea or P.fossilis?

- I have red in Russian animal forums that the shoulder height of the largests specimens from Imanai cave was calculated to amazing 140 cm by (WHEELER and JEFFERSON). 
Is this true and real, shoulder height of 140 cm for sure mean weight more than 400 kg (880 pounds). 

- It is written in Russian forums that the jaw of that specimen or other specimen (I am not sure) from Imanai cave reached 315-317 mm and the radial bone was 40 cm long. If you have radial bone of 40 cm what will be the estimated shoulder height of the animal?


The upper radial bone is from African lion, while the lower is from P.fossilis. We can see how larger was that prehistoric cat and what a monstrous creature it was:
If we assume that average African male lion is in average 180 kg than giant bone has belonged to animal about 2,5 times more massive - around450 kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Have you heard something like that and most importantly again on the base of largest bones and skulls discovered  what was the maximal weight of the P.fossilis? Do you think the largests P.fossilis could exceed 400 kg (880 lbs)?

@Wolverine
Great find thanks for sharing, let's wait for @tigerluver estimations of their size and weight. Reply

[Siegfried]

Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found. https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/ Reply

[Ghari Sher]

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one. Reply

[Shadow]

(11-03-2018, 10:35 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one.

Was there  some fur found also from adult cave lion or american lion? I think, that I have seen some. It is interesting, if I remember right, that fur and fur of these cubs are all quite same as lions have today. Then again if all have same progenitor maybe not so surprising at all. Reply

[Ghari Sher]

(11-03-2018, 10:57 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:35 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one.

Was there  some fur found also from adult cave lion or american lion? I think, that I have seen some. It is interesting, if I remember right, that fur and fur of these cubs are all quite same as lions have today. Then again if all have same progenitor maybe not so surprising at all.

From the cave lion - yes.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Photomicrographs of the yellowish matted fur found alongside the remains of a skeleton of cave lion. (А) Small wads of fur with black guard hairs indicated by arrows; (B) the hair was highly heterogeneous: thick black guard hairs and thin and waved yellowish downy hairs are visible, and black guard hairs are indicated by arrows; (Box) guard hairs. Scale bars are 1 cm. Note: In the cave lion fur we found one dark hair (thickness up to 34mm) identified as a small rodent hair. (For interpretation of the references to color in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)

https://pgl.soe.ucsc.edu/chernova16.pdf
Overall the pelage for this cat was denser than that of the African lion, and also probably lighter in colour (in contrast to @tigerluver's reconstruction, I dare say), since there are fewer dark guard hairs and more yellowish downy hairs, as described above by Kirilova (2016).
The associated skeleton belonged to a large male, mature, but not old. The belonging of the hair and skeleton to the same individual is under some question due to the younger radiocarbon age given by the hair, but this could be due to failure of the authors to clean out any contaminating sediment from the hair sample which might effect the age, as mentioned below:
http://www.ibss.febras.ru/Files/00014589.pdf

In regards to the pelage of the American lion - there is a patch of skin from Patagonia, but its attribution to Panthera atrox is doubtful, despite that new paper. A friend of mine who has done considerable reading into the megafauna of South America is confident that the fur is either from a cougar or a jaguar. Reply

[Shadow]

(11-03-2018, 11:42 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:57 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:35 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one.

Was there  some fur found also from adult cave lion or american lion? I think, that I have seen some. It is interesting, if I remember right, that fur and fur of these cubs are all quite same as lions have today. Then again if all have same progenitor maybe not so surprising at all.

From the cave lion - yes.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Photomicrographs of the yellowish matted fur found alongside the remains of a skeleton of cave lion. (А) Small wads of fur with black guard hairs indicated by arrows; (B) the hair was highly heterogeneous: thick black guard hairs and thin and waved yellowish downy hairs are visible, and black guard hairs are indicated by arrows; (Box) guard hairs. Scale bars are 1 cm. Note: In the cave lion fur we found one dark hair (thickness up to 34mm) identified as a small rodent hair. (For interpretation of the references to color in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)

https://pgl.soe.ucsc.edu/chernova16.pdf
Overall the pelage for this cat was denser than that of the African lion, and also probably lighter in colour (in contrast to @tigerluver's reconstruction, I dare say), since there are fewer dark guard hairs and more yellowish downy hairs, as described above by Kirilova (2016).
The associated skeleton belonged to a large male, mature, but not old. The belonging of the hair and skeleton to the same individual is under some question due to the younger radiocarbon age given by the hair, but this could be due to failure of the authors to clean out any contaminating sediment from the hair sample which might effect the age, as mentioned below:
http://www.ibss.febras.ru/Files/00014589.pdf

In regards to the pelage of the American lion - there is a patch of skin from Patagonia, but its attribution to Panthera atrox is doubtful, despite that new paper. A friend of mine who has done considerable reading into the megafauna of South America is confident that the fur is either from a cougar or a jaguar.

I couldn´t open that other link so I´m not sure if that fur was same which I have seen. How dense fur is, is related to current climate conditions  most probably. If colder, fur has to be denser. Reply

[tigerluver]

@Wolverine , I have not read of the released measurements for those fossils since their photos showed up years ago. However, I am certain larger P. fossilis are already on record. Let's use an ideal 200 kg lion as the isometric comparison.

The formula is:

Mass (fossil) = (Measurement of fossil)/(Measurement of extant specimen)^3 * Mass of the extant specimen.

Firstly, the 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg modern lion could have a skull about 380 mm long. Applying these numbers to the aforementioned formula results in a mass of 415 kg.

Next, the 465 mm ulna (Reichenau 1908). A 200 kg lion could have an ulna about 385 mm long. Calculate... this P. fossilis weighed 352 kg.

Finally, the giant 192 mm MTIII (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg lion could have an MTIII of 145 mm. Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. Perhaps this is somewhat of an overestimate if P. fossilis was even longer limb-wise than the modern lion, but we have no skeletons to support this assumption other than the fact that its descendant, P. atrox, was indeed proportionally longer limb-wise. Moreover, MTIIIs vary a lot between individuals in relation to body size/mass. Nonetheless, the specimen was likely no less than 400 kg.

Both the MTIII and ulna can be confounded by an increased cursoriality in P. fossilis but the former much more so. The elongated skull of P. fossilis can also confound the isometric comparison to a degree.

From the scant fossil record, it is quite apparent P. fossilis consistently produced what would be giants by modern standards. For instance, many of the fragmented mandibles were likely from skulls that exceeded 400 mm. By probability and comparison of samples, P. fossilis was likely larger than P. atrox as well. The excessively large long bones of P. fossilis also hint that 130-140 cm at the shoulder would be comfortably attained by some of the largest specimens.

@epaiva I will post some photos soon, sorry about the wait. Reply

[Ghari Sher]

(11-03-2018, 11:55 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 11:42 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:57 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:35 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one.

Was there  some fur found also from adult cave lion or american lion? I think, that I have seen some. It is interesting, if I remember right, that fur and fur of these cubs are all quite same as lions have today. Then again if all have same progenitor maybe not so surprising at all.

From the cave lion - yes.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Photomicrographs of the yellowish matted fur found alongside the remains of a skeleton of cave lion. (А) Small wads of fur with black guard hairs indicated by arrows; (B) the hair was highly heterogeneous: thick black guard hairs and thin and waved yellowish downy hairs are visible, and black guard hairs are indicated by arrows; (Box) guard hairs. Scale bars are 1 cm. Note: In the cave lion fur we found one dark hair (thickness up to 34mm) identified as a small rodent hair. (For interpretation of the references to color in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)

https://pgl.soe.ucsc.edu/chernova16.pdf
Overall the pelage for this cat was denser than that of the African lion, and also probably lighter in colour (in contrast to @tigerluver's reconstruction, I dare say), since there are fewer dark guard hairs and more yellowish downy hairs, as described above by Kirilova (2016).
The associated skeleton belonged to a large male, mature, but not old. The belonging of the hair and skeleton to the same individual is under some question due to the younger radiocarbon age given by the hair, but this could be due to failure of the authors to clean out any contaminating sediment from the hair sample which might effect the age, as mentioned below:
http://www.ibss.febras.ru/Files/00014589.pdf

In regards to the pelage of the American lion - there is a patch of skin from Patagonia, but its attribution to Panthera atrox is doubtful, despite that new paper. A friend of mine who has done considerable reading into the megafauna of South America is confident that the fur is either from a cougar or a jaguar.

I couldn´t open that other link so I´m not sure if that fur was same which I have seen. How dense fur is, is related to current climate conditions  most probably. If colder, fur has to be denser.

My bad, I've attached the paper here.
Yup, it was the cold climate. It is presumed to have varied across the lion's range as it does for the extant species.

EDIT: OK, it seems I can't attach the file, damn it.

found it

http://www.academia.edu/24572295/On_the_...ka_Russia_ Reply

[Shadow]

(11-04-2018, 12:44 AM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 11:55 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 11:42 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:57 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 10:35 PM)Ghari Sher Wrote:

(11-03-2018, 08:44 PM)Siegfried Wrote: Apparently there are more cave lion cubs that have been found.                                                                                                                                                                                                 https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

Oh yeah, Spartak. I posted another, more recent article on him a few posts up.
Makes that about 4 cave lion cubs, assuming Boris is one.

Was there  some fur found also from adult cave lion or american lion? I think, that I have seen some. It is interesting, if I remember right, that fur and fur of these cubs are all quite same as lions have today. Then again if all have same progenitor maybe not so surprising at all.

From the cave lion - yes.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fig. 2. Photomicrographs of the yellowish matted fur found alongside the remains of a skeleton of cave lion. (А) Small wads of fur with black guard hairs indicated by arrows; (B) the hair was highly heterogeneous: thick black guard hairs and thin and waved yellowish downy hairs are visible, and black guard hairs are indicated by arrows; (Box) guard hairs. Scale bars are 1 cm. Note: In the cave lion fur we found one dark hair (thickness up to 34mm) identified as a small rodent hair. (For interpretation of the references to color in this figure legend, the reader is referred to the web version of this article.)

https://pgl.soe.ucsc.edu/chernova16.pdf
Overall the pelage for this cat was denser than that of the African lion, and also probably lighter in colour (in contrast to @tigerluver's reconstruction, I dare say), since there are fewer dark guard hairs and more yellowish downy hairs, as described above by Kirilova (2016).
The associated skeleton belonged to a large male, mature, but not old. The belonging of the hair and skeleton to the same individual is under some question due to the younger radiocarbon age given by the hair, but this could be due to failure of the authors to clean out any contaminating sediment from the hair sample which might effect the age, as mentioned below:
http://www.ibss.febras.ru/Files/00014589.pdf

In regards to the pelage of the American lion - there is a patch of skin from Patagonia, but its attribution to Panthera atrox is doubtful, despite that new paper. A friend of mine who has done considerable reading into the megafauna of South America is confident that the fur is either from a cougar or a jaguar.

I couldn´t open that other link so I´m not sure if that fur was same which I have seen. How dense fur is, is related to current climate conditions  most probably. If colder, fur has to be denser.

My bad, I've attached the paper here.
Yup, it was the cold climate. It is presumed to have varied across the lion's range as it does for the extant species.

EDIT: OK, it seems I can't attach the file, damn it.

found it

http://www.academia.edu/24572295/On_the_...ka_Russia_

Yes, I think that I have seen that same photo in colors which was in this latest link, thank you for finding that. Reply

[Wolverine]

(11-04-2018, 12:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. 

464 kg... P. fossilis was really a titanic predator dwarfing all felines we have on the planet now! So 140 cm shoulder height is not impossible digit.

Thanks a lot for the answer, every your post in the area of paleontology has a value equal to the value of all of our posts combined together. Reply