The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[Smilodon-Rex]

(06-19-2018, 05:43 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Some males from Okavango, seems to have some characteristics from cave lions just look at this magnificent specimens mane! 

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Prehistoric Lions may not have huge mane,  most of the Prehistoric Lions such as American Lions may looks like modern Tsavo Lions, but American Lions have more powerful muscles and skeletons than modern pantheras a lot. The Cave Lion are have the same features too, but meanwhile they may  more likely to closed to tigers which in later pleistocence. 

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New Version of Mosbach Lion's art-work by Roman.Uchytel 

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Old Version of American Lion＆Smilodon fatalis 

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New Version of American Lion

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Cave Lion

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Panthera youngi
@GrizzlyClaws , @tigerluver Reply

[tigerluver]

(12-03-2017, 11:56 PM)tigerluver Wrote: Panthera atrox in South America?

A new paper was just published stating that a fossil pantherine of South America, known as P. onca mesembrina, has been misidentified at least a few times. The true identity of this cat they assert is Panthera atrox. Their assertion is based on morphological similarities of the specimen to P. atrox rather than the jaguar. The skull they reference is the best example of their point. The paper.

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Take a look at the above photos. Which species does the skull in the top photo looks most similar too? Based on visibility of the incisive foramina and the nasal shape, the authors conclude that the skull is actually of P. atrox.

At first take, the logic looks good. However, Dr. Ross Barnett disagrees, mentioning on twitter that cats of these areas have been DNA tested and shown to be jaguar. He cited this paper. 

The authors in a way already had a response built into the paper to such a rebuttal, stating that the ancient jaguar and American lion would have shared the domain. So what does everyone think? Is this skull of a jaguar or an American lion?

Here is a followup on the controversial skull from South America. I measured the skull's GSL (c. 340 mm) and ZW (c. 249.5 mm) from the reconstructed figure. I then ran a principal component analysis with the skull (in green, labeled P. o. m.), P. atrox (in blue), and P. onca (in dark pink). Here is the result:

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The controversial skull falls just inside the statistical range of P. atrox while also falling well out of the range for (modern) P. onca. Such can mean two things. One, the skull groups in P. atrox, and is thus a member of P. atrox. Two, with the skull falling at the edge of the range of P. atrox, it is from a different, unknown species/group (perhaps an archaic P. onca ancestor?). In either scenario, the skull falls out of the possibility of at least a modern P. onca. Reply

[epaiva]

Lions in the Carpathians
https://synapsida.blogspot.com/2018/09/l...ref=fb&m=1 Reply

[epaiva]

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[GrizzlyClaws]

(10-03-2018, 03:01 AM)epaiva Wrote:

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Notice the two Cave lion subspecies had been diverged much longer between themselves than the distance between the modern tiger/lion subspecies.

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[Smilodon-Rex]

(10-03-2018, 04:47 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(10-03-2018, 03:01 AM)epaiva Wrote:

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Notice the two Cave lion subspecies had been diverged much longer between themselves than the distance between the modern tiger/lion subspecies.

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The new version of cave lion by Roman-uchytel 

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The Beringian cave lion

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[epaiva]

(10-03-2018, 04:47 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(10-03-2018, 03:01 AM)epaiva Wrote:

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Notice the two Cave lion subspecies had been diverged much longer between themselves than the distance between the modern tiger/lion subspecies.

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@GrizzlyClaws
What was the size of the Beringia Lion? Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(10-03-2018, 05:52 AM)epaiva Wrote:

(10-03-2018, 04:47 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(10-03-2018, 03:01 AM)epaiva Wrote:

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Notice the two Cave lion subspecies had been diverged much longer between themselves than the distance between the modern tiger/lion subspecies.

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@GrizzlyClaws
What was the size of the Beringia Lion?

About the size of the modern African lion, and the chart above is pretty accurate. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

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Panthera leo spelaea skull discovered in Francehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lions_in_Europe#/media/File:Panthera_leo_spelaea_MHNT.PAL.2009.0.1_Montmaurin_Pl%C3%A9istoc%C3%A8ne.jpg Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(10-08-2018, 04:30 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

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Panthera leo spelaea skull discovered in Francehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lions_in_Europe#/media/File:Panthera_leo_spelaea_MHNT.PAL.2009.0.1_Montmaurin_Pl%C3%A9istoc%C3%A8ne.jpg

The canine shape looks almost identical to those from China.

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[tigerluver]

A new skull from Argentina was reported this year (see attached paper). It is attributed to P. onca and measures 271.00 mm as it is. The skull's estimated age is about the same to a few thousand years younger than the controversial South American P. atrox skull. Here's a comparison:

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What differences and similarities does everyone see? Reply

[Ghari Sher]

Something that you might find interesting is a paper announcing a new subspecies of Eurasian lion - Panthera spelaea intermedia, which apparently represents an intermediary form between fossilis and late Pleistocene spelaea of intermediate age. In this case the authors seem to support a (P. spelaea fossilis > P. spelaea intermedia > P. spelaea spelaea) lineage, though I have noticed, as has been mentioned here, that the latter two species seem, at least from the descriptions from the paper (and I am no expert), more similar to each other and fossilis seems somewhat distinct, and interestingly apparently more robust than the later lions (at least in regards to the elements compared in the paper):

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/contenton...cation/pdf Reply

[Ghari Sher]

Hello,
I'm an amateur enthusiast who's been enamoured by the lions of the Pleistocene ever since I first read about them, and I've found it hard to find many in-depth online discussions about them (this being on of the few). Great to find this forum, and there's quite a few new things I've learned from reading this thread.

Quite an interesting thing that Panthera fossilis has been suggested to not even be directly ancestral to spelaea - I wasn't aware of that.
But in regards to the hypothesis that atrox is derived directly from fossilis, with the being more distantly related to spelaea, there is a paper that comes to mind regarding this, Barnett's 2009 genetic study. It doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this discussion, but maybe I've missed it.
He used sequences from both Eurasian and North American Pleistocene lions and found that spelaea and atrox were actually very close:

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He estimates that the two lineages diverged about 337,000 years ago (194,000-489,000 range), and evidence suggests atrox descended from a population of Beringian spelaea which entered North America and was subsequently isolated.


https://www.zin.ru/Labs/theriology/eng/s...l_2009.pdf

That split seems to be a bit too young for the hypothesis of atrox deriving directly from fossilis (though there is some temporal overlap in the ranges), and being more distant to spelaea. Reply

[Ghari Sher]

(11-14-2017, 07:13 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Frozen Remains of Extinct Lion Found in Russia

From what I understand, there is some doubt as to whether or not that cub is actually a cave lion, and it could quite possibly be a lynx.
https://www.livescience.com/60939-mummie...-lion.html
Not certain though.

However, recently a new cub has been announced, named "Spartak". Both from the photos and from personal communication from Dr. Valerii Plotnikov (the scientist mentioned in the article) I think it's pretty clear that this is likely a cave lion cub. According to Plotnikov this cub is slightly more mature than Uyan and Dina in terms of ontogenetic age.

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https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/
All-in-all this gives us soft tissue preservation for this species from a minimum of 4 individuals (Spartak, Uyan, Dina, and the Maly-Anyuy lion). Reply

[Ghari Sher]

(11-03-2016, 09:42 PM)Ngala Wrote: Extinct lion cubs found in Siberia are up to 55,000 years old - latest test results reveal
By The Siberian Times reporter03 November 2016
Tantalising studies now underway to establish if one of two carcases preserved by permafrost has traces of world's oldest mother's milk.

New research indicates they are at least twice as old, living between 25,000 and 55,000 years ago, with one of them 'perfectly' preserved. Picture: Vera Salnitskaya

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The lion cubs found in summer 2015 were previously believed to be at least 12,000 years old. But new research indicates they are at least twice as old, living between 25,000 and 55,000 years ago, with one of them 'perfectly' preserved. 

These cave lion siblings - which became extinct around 10,000 BC - were between one and two weeks old when they were killed in a likely prehistoric ceiling collapse in their den.

Intriguingly, the tails of the ancient cubs were short compared with modern lions - 23% of their body length compared with 60%.

Scientists have now established the cubs - named Uyan and Dina- were found in Edoma permafrost deposits  formed during the Karginskii interstadial, a warmer period late in the Ice Age from 25,000 to 55,000 years ago.

The scientists want to extract all possible knowledge but at the same time cause 'minimum damage to the ancient cave lion'. Pictures: Vera Salnitskaya

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Dr Albert Protopopov, one of the main researchers, said: 'That means that the cubs were not younger than 25,000 years old. Previously the youngest date for the cubs was 12,000, the time when the cave lions become extinct.'

The 'exact data' on their age will be calculated later. 'The analysis is not finished yet,' he said. 'As for their age when they died - we think that they were 1 to 2 weeks old. 

'We made a CT scan and saw that their teeth had not appeared yet. Based on a comparison with African lions, we concluded that they were younger than one month, most likely between 1 and 2 weeks old.'

Dr Protopopov, head of the Department of Mammoth Fauna, Academy of Sciences of the Sakha Republic (Yakutia), said: 'The CT scan also helped us to check the state of the inner organs of cubs. 

Dr Albert Protopopov, one of the main researchers, said: 'That means that the cubs were not younger than 25,000 years old.' Picture: Vera Salnitskaya

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'One of cubs, Uyan, is more preserved and the CT showed us that there is something in its stomach. Now we are discussing between us: what is it - mother's milk or some other substance.' 

The 'opaque white fluid' might be milk but could also be gastric fluid. The scientists want to extract all possible knowledge but at the same time cause 'minimum damage to the ancient cave lion.

'With the milk, it is very interesting, but we need to think twice before doing something,' he said. 'The finds are really unique and any reckless action by us can damage them. We think that that perhaps we can use some unobtrusive  method to research the cub's stomach.'

DNA analysis confirms the cubs are cave lions but they hope for better quality analysis when samples are taken from internal organs.

'We also plan to conduct radioisotope analysis to learn about their environment, what did they eat and what is more important - what did their mother eat and from where she came,' he said. 'We plan to make another more powerful CT scan to get more detailed information about their intestines.' 

South Korean cloning guru Hwang Woo-suk took is believed to have taken samples from one of the cubs. Pictures: Galina Mozolevskaya/YSIA

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The cubs were dug last year from their icy grave 'complete with all their body parts: fur, ears, soft tissue and even whiskers', said Dr Protopopov.

South Korean cloning guru Hwang Woo-suk took is believed to have taken samples from one of the cubs, found close to the Uyandina River. He is also hoping to clone the extinct woolly mammoth. 

Cave lions - Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss) - lived during Middle and Late Pleistocene times on the Eurasian continent, from the British Isles to Chukotka in the extreme east of Russia, and they also roamed Alaska and northwestern Canada.

Research on the two cubs could help to explain why the species died out, since the animal had few predators, was smaller than herbivores, and was not prone to getting bogged down in swamps, as did woolly mammoths and rhinos. One theory is that they were hunted for their skins by ancient man.

The cubs were found in Abyisky district, on the bank of the Uyandina River, in 57 kilometres from Belaya Gora village. Pictures: The Siberian Times, Vera Salnitskaya

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The latest results of research on the cubs were presented at the recent annual meeting of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology in Salt Lake City.

Research was conducted by scientists from Russia and the US, namely the Yakutian Academy of Sciences, Yakutsk; the Diamond and Precious Metals Geology Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences, Yakutsk; the Institute of Human Morphology, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Moscow; the Borissiak Paleontological Institute, Russian Academy of the Sciences, Moscow; the Mammoth Site of Hot Springs, Hot Springs, South Dakota; and the  University of California Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, California. 

Just a little heads up - the scientists behind this discovery have actually published some literature on these cubs!


The first (time-wise), and most extensive one is on ResearchGate and includes an abstract + a highly informative chart from the SVP 2016 on the DNA, morphology, location and taphonomy of these two gems:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ct_Species

The second is just an abstract for the International Conference on Mammoths and Their Relatives. Very brief description but still informative nonetheless.
http://www.mammothtw2017.org/download/VI...df#page=59

The available literature right now is not very lengthy (yet!), but what details are available are truly enlightening, in regards to their appearance and exterior morphology, as well as their differences from the modern African varieties. I can literally see them in the flesh.
I was pretty excited to find this information.
For what it's worth I made an illustration depicting them with their mother shortly before their den collapsed (as indicated in the first link, this is most likely how they died) :

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https://www.deviantart.com/anonymousllam...-755344383
Not completely satisfied with this, but it'll have to do. The appearance of the cubs is what is most fleshed out here. Reply