There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(07-21-2021, 08:48 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Some Eastern Cave lions were absolutely huge, and maybe they were smaller on average than the Western Cave lions, but those top notch specimens were just as large as the largest Western Cave lions.
And they did have proportionally longer/thinner canine teeth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Monstrous specimens!
Do you know the alleged localities? What would you say the length measurements of the specimens are?
The giant jaw looks Romanian in both size and preservation.
The skull has other peculiarities. I have never seen a truly complete carnivore skull from Eurasia on the fossil market, they are all restored or composite to increase the price. Maybe it's just the specimen, but the skull shows some oddities like a very short muzzle (could be camera angle), the posterior edge of the occiput goes very far past the condyles, the posterior arch is very narrow, there is plastering on the anterior end of the left hemimandible, the mandible is glossy and uniform in color while the skull is dull in color, and parts of the skull (like the occiput and area anterior to it) are different colors (which gives some concern for restoration work).
These Cave lion fossils were labelled as the Beringian subspecies from the eastern Siberia.
These guys seem to be about in the same league with the giant Kahayan tiger, and they can be told apart from the European Cave lions with their relatively long canine teeth.
The mandible seems to have a very robust canine. Despite being a bit shorter than P. atrox largest 309 mm (canine AP ~30 mm) and 318 mm (canine AP ~33.5 mm) mandibles, it is wider in the AP diameter (34 mm purported from that photo). For unit height, it is likely more robust than the Kahayan canine (that tiger has more of a sabertooth style canine) but vertical quite a bit shorter. Comparing the length, the horizontal ramus of this cave lion seems about the same to a slight bit longer because the vertical ramus and associated masseteric fossa are shorter than expected for a cave lion of this stature. The horizontal ramus of this cave lion is very robust and tall, probably quite a bit moreso than any tiger including the Kahayan mandible. This is a unique cave lion trait. P. leo for comparison have thin mandibles, especially anteriorly. The vertical ramus however seem short and significantly shorter than the Kahayan tiger's projection. From the point of the anterior canine to the division of the inferior contour of the masseteric fossa, the Kahayan mandible is 5-10% longer and seems to indicate it had more masseteric fossa for its jaw. I wonder if this is not a Late Pleistocene animal as the tall horizontal ramus but short vertical ramus indicate less muscle attachment and weaker bite force, which could correlate with the thinner skulls of P. fossilis.
Now I have a question to see if anyone has any hypotheses. Why do wide skulled cats have shorter, less robust horizontal rami of the mandible? For instance, P. fossilis has a narrower skull than P. spelaea but has a very tall and robust horizontal ramus. The Ngandong tiger skull is narrow but the Watualang mandible is proportionately more robust in the horizontal ramus than any extant tiger. The widest tiger skull I have measured was from Malaysia, with a length of about 320 mm but was extremely wide for its length at 245 mm. Its mandible is just like the Kahayan tiger's, short in the horizontal ramus, but with a tall, deep, and long vertical ramus and associated masseteric fossa. These observations show that the wide skulls with less robust horizontal rami have greater surface area for musculature. Conversely, the cats with tall horizontal rami have much less surface area for musculature.
As an aside, the cave lion skull still has some concern given the fossil market. I hope it is not a composite and the stuck on a canine (and maybe maxilla too) of a different animal onto it making the canine seem thin. Full skull finds are nearly impossible.
Isn't the AP diameter of the lower canine on the Kahayan mandible something like 36 mm? Maybe the length of the lower canine is significantly longer for the Kahayan mandible.
I also notice that, and another classic example should be Panthera zdanskyi that also got narrow skull but very tall and squared mandible.
Isn't the AP diameter of the lower canine on the Kahayan mandible something like 36 mm? Maybe the length of the lower canine is significantly longer for the Kahayan mandible.
I also notice that, and another classic example should be Panthera zdanskyi that also got narrow skull but very tall and squared mandible.
*This image is copyright of its original author
35.2 mm is the official measurement at the crown root and of course it would be thicker within the hidden part of the tooth. It's hard to measure the canine length of the specimen at the base of the crown root because the mandible is completely missing from the anterior end. As such, the measurement is best on an educated guess of where the the complete symphysis would have been around the canine.
Great point on P. zdanskyi. It seems like the traits that are unique to cave lions are not necessarily exclusive to cave lions, but rather a primitive trait within the Panthera genus. Such narrow skulls will not produce as much bite force, so the mandible must be growing dorsoventrally for some other reason. Maybe primitive cats moved their heads up and down while biting while extant cats have more a side to side motion. P. palaeosinensis also has that big, blocky mandible:
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
The crown of the largest Amur tiger upper canine is about 1 cm longer and 1 cm wider.
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
The crown of the largest Amur tiger upper canine is about 1 cm longer and 1 cm wider.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Siberian Tigers have huge crowns and their part exposed is huge too, large upper fangs of Siberian Tigers are as long as the ones of Panthera atrox they measure 7,5 cm long. What Would be the size of the part exposed of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger?
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
For the Ngandong skull here is excerpt with the measurements in German then translated:
"Durch eine lücke von 14 mm getrennt folgen die mächtigen canini. Ihr basaler abstand betragt am gaumen innen gemessem 58 mm. Der rechte, besser erhaltene ragt 68 mm aus der alveole heraus (aussen gemessen). Innen und hinten zeigen sie Spuren starker Abnutzung. Die Langsdurchmesser der Caninen sind, an der Alveole gemessen, rechts 32 mm, links 31 mm. Bei dem Oberkieferbruchstuck (alveole) ca. 31 mm."
"The mighty canini follow separated by a gap of 14 mm. Their basal distance on the inside of the palate is 58 mm. The one on the right, better preserved, protrudes 68 mm from the alveolus (measured on the outside). Inside and behind they show traces of heavy wear. The long diameters of the canines, measured at the alveolus, are 32 mm on the right and 31 mm on the left. The fracture of the upper jaw (alveolus) approx. 31 mm."
So 68 mm tall by 32 mm in AP diameter.
The largest P. spelaea skulls don't have canine measurements but I will look in further.
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
For the Ngandong skull here is excerpt with the measurements in German then translated:
"Durch eine lücke von 14 mm getrennt folgen die mächtigen canini. Ihr basaler abstand betragt am gaumen innen gemessem 58 mm. Der rechte, besser erhaltene ragt 68 mm aus der alveole heraus (aussen gemessen). Innen und hinten zeigen sie Spuren starker Abnutzung. Die Langsdurchmesser der Caninen sind, an der Alveole gemessen, rechts 32 mm, links 31 mm. Bei dem Oberkieferbruchstuck (alveole) ca. 31 mm."
"The mighty canini follow separated by a gap of 14 mm. Their basal distance on the inside of the palate is 58 mm. The one on the right, better preserved, protrudes 68 mm from the alveolus (measured on the outside). Inside and behind they show traces of heavy wear. The long diameters of the canines, measured at the alveolus, are 32 mm on the right and 31 mm on the left. The fracture of the upper jaw (alveolus) approx. 31 mm."
So 68 mm tall by 32 mm in AP diameter.
The largest P. spelaea skulls don't have canine measurements but I will look in further.
Thanks a lot @“tigerluver”
I will be waiting for your valuable information
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
The crown of the largest Amur tiger upper canine is about 1 cm longer and 1 cm wider.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Siberian Tigers have huge crowns and their part exposed is huge too, large upper fangs of Siberian Tigers are as long as the ones of Panthera atrox they measure 7,5 cm long. What Would be the size of the part exposed of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger?
The giant Amur fang could be 8 cm from the gumline, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 4.5 cm.
I think the Panthera atrox canine from gumline could be somewhere between 6.5 to 7 cm, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 3.5 cm.
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
For the Ngandong skull here is excerpt with the measurements in German then translated:
"Durch eine lücke von 14 mm getrennt folgen die mächtigen canini. Ihr basaler abstand betragt am gaumen innen gemessem 58 mm. Der rechte, besser erhaltene ragt 68 mm aus der alveole heraus (aussen gemessen). Innen und hinten zeigen sie Spuren starker Abnutzung. Die Langsdurchmesser der Caninen sind, an der Alveole gemessen, rechts 32 mm, links 31 mm. Bei dem Oberkieferbruchstuck (alveole) ca. 31 mm."
"The mighty canini follow separated by a gap of 14 mm. Their basal distance on the inside of the palate is 58 mm. The one on the right, better preserved, protrudes 68 mm from the alveolus (measured on the outside). Inside and behind they show traces of heavy wear. The long diameters of the canines, measured at the alveolus, are 32 mm on the right and 31 mm on the left. The fracture of the upper jaw (alveolus) approx. 31 mm."
So 68 mm tall by 32 mm in AP diameter.
The largest P. spelaea skulls don't have canine measurements but I will look in further.
I always have the impression that the Pleistocene tigers from the Mainland China could have superior canine teeth in comparison to its Sunda cousins.
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
The crown of the largest Amur tiger upper canine is about 1 cm longer and 1 cm wider.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Siberian Tigers have huge crowns and their part exposed is huge too, large upper fangs of Siberian Tigers are as long as the ones of Panthera atrox they measure 7,5 cm long. What Would be the size of the part exposed of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger?
The giant Amur fang could be 8 cm from the gumline, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 4.5 cm.
I think the Panthera atrox canine from gumline could be somewhere between 6.5 to 7 cm, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 3.5 cm.
Thanks a lot for your valuable information @“grizzlyclaws”
07-28-2021, 11:40 PM( This post was last modified: 07-28-2021, 11:44 PM by GrizzlyClaws )
(07-24-2021, 05:54 AM)epaiva Wrote:
(07-24-2021, 05:07 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-24-2021, 01:09 AM)epaiva Wrote:
(07-24-2021, 12:17 AM)JGrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(07-23-2021, 08:12 PM)epaiva Wrote:
(06-19-2021, 02:34 AM)epaiva Wrote: American Lion (Panthera atrox)
Measurements: length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper canines 74,8 mm and 74,3 mm, length of lower canines 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
@“tigerluver”
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
@¨grizzlyclaws¨ @¨tigerluver¨
I have a question for you, do you know the sizes of the fangs measured from the skull of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) compared to the American Lion (Panthera atrox).
The crown of the largest Amur tiger upper canine is about 1 cm longer and 1 cm wider.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Siberian Tigers have huge crowns and their part exposed is huge too, large upper fangs of Siberian Tigers are as long as the ones of Panthera atrox they measure 7,5 cm long. What Would be the size of the part exposed of Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Ngandong Tiger?
The giant Amur fang could be 8 cm from the gumline, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 4.5 cm.
I think the Panthera atrox canine from gumline could be somewhere between 6.5 to 7 cm, and its AP diameter from the gumline could be 3.5 cm.
Thanks a lot for your valuable information @“grizzlyclaws”
The late Pleistocene Chinese tigers and the prime Manchurian tigers were like the T-Rex of the pantherine world.
Always proportionally the widest muzzle/most vaulted skull that enabling to produce the largest canine teeth among the pantherines.
Coincidentally, they were also the largest dominant group among the giant pantherines like the T-Rex did among the theropods.
