There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
10-23-2024, 11:08 PM( This post was last modified: 10-23-2024, 11:09 PM by afortich )
(10-23-2024, 05:03 PM)KM600 Wrote: Supposedly one of the Paradise boys, same males that were spotted in Rongai Pride territory and I think even mated with a lioness and then went into Black Rock Pride territory too, was only a matter of time before they got seriously caught. They already showed shows of injury when they went into Rongai Pride territory. I think this boy is for sure gone, it’s hard to tell how much of his back legs are either covered in blood or dirt, but he had 3 big males on him for quite some time, and until now I don’t think he’s been seen standing either. Very possible he has a broken back. Just noticed since I changed the link, u can’t see the lions named in the title unless u open it on YouTube, these are the 3 Kaskaz males.
I hate when youngsters die like this despite the fact that it's lions' nature.
(10-23-2024, 11:08 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Probably for the bestbwith a fractured spine.
I am conflicted about the amount of intervention though. Chasing the Kaskaz off and all.
When they did it with the cheetah, it was explained to me how hard they are working to help the cheetah recover, so I understood. But, in this situation, it does not make any sense at all, as hard as it is, you can't go interfering with nature, every time you see an animal being hurt by other animals. Nobody interfered in the Baba Yao situation, when he broke that cub's back, as it should be, and that was one of the toughest videos I have ever watched, I cannot imagine how it felt to be there in person. I am the last person who ever wants to see any lion harmed (or any animal for that matter), but it is the way of nature, if I have that much of an issue with it, then I should start following something else.
(10-23-2024, 11:08 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Probably for the bestbwith a fractured spine.
I am conflicted about the amount of intervention though. Chasing the Kaskaz off and all.
When they did it with the cheetah, it was explained to me how hard they are working to help the cheetah recover, so I understood. But, in this situation, it does not make any sense at all, as hard as it is, you can't go interfering with nature, every time you see an animal being hurt by other animals. Nobody interfered in the Baba Yao situation, when he broke that cub's back, as it should be, and that was one of the toughest videos I have ever watched, I cannot imagine how it felt to be there in person. I am the last person who ever wants to see any lion harmed (or any animal for that matter), but it is the way of nature, if I have that much of an issue with it, then I should start following something else.
I agree, the young Paradise boy was in their territory, it’s not like this was in no mans land and nothing would have come from this altercation, the Kaskaz males were quite literally defending their territory. Now if he received vet treatment after they had stopped, fine, but u can’t run off dominant, pride males for no reason at all.
Let’s say the boy did recover, he then comes back with his brothers and kills a cub / subadult, or worse, injures one of the pride males, how is that fair.
I remember hearing a Sabi Sands guide say he personally shot between 10-15 lions that were so severely damaged by the Mapogos, it was the best option. Any credible vet would have known that boy was going to die and wouldn’t have intervened like that, I’m not saying the vets on scene weren’t knowledgeable, certainly more than me, but hinting that the ppl behind these decisions most likely aren’t. I’d argue them chasing off the Kaskaz males only prolonged his death, they could have finished him off much quicker.
I think that’s the issue with the Mara which I get confused with, when is it right to intervene and to what extent? Personally I am a strong advocate to let nature take its course in all situations, no matter how brutal we perceive things to be. Cubs and young nomadic males being killed are and always will be part of lion dynamics, I don’t believe it’s necessary to start messing with these dynamics by getting involved in certain scenarios but not others.
Why were the Kaskaz Males chased off on this occasion but nobody took any action when Spearboy was being mauled by the Mugoro Males or when Baba Yao himself was caught and attacked by the Sala’s Males? Those are just two examples I’ve mentioned but there is obviously many more. Granted those were both adult males at the time and this was only a young nomad but the point still stands. Random intervention with certain cases to me just seems more unusual than either intervening all the time or not at all.
I think we have to take into account the numbers and the assessment they make about conservation, perhaps at the time of other events the number of lions was stable enough not to require intervention, I have always believed that intervention is carried out in the Mara to stabilize the number of lions in the area, since I do not have access to reports on this, I want to believe that interventionist activities are based on these reports about the need or not for human action. Added to this is the strong pressure that these people are under due to the numerous recent cases of disappearances or deaths caused by inhabitants, which may have led them to take more drastic measures to support and preserve the lives of these animals.
I understand the point where interfering could harm the dynamics of the place and cause future damage to the coalition that “won” the dispute, however, the animal cannot be discarded if there is a need for its preservation due to the possibility of future damage, even more so assuming that everyone would have help until a self-sufficient amount is established
(10-24-2024, 04:02 AM)Gavskrr Wrote: I think we have to take into account the numbers and the assessment they make about conservation, perhaps at the time of other events the number of lions was stable enough not to require intervention, I have always believed that intervention is carried out in the Mara to stabilize the number of lions in the area, since I do not have access to reports on this, I want to believe that interventionist activities are based on these reports about the need or not for human action. Added to this is the strong pressure that these people are under due to the numerous recent cases of disappearances or deaths caused by inhabitants, which may have led them to take more drastic measures to support and preserve the lives of these animals.
I understand the point where interfering could harm the dynamics of the place and cause future damage to the coalition that “won” the dispute, however, the animal cannot be discarded if there is a need for its preservation due to the possibility of future damage, even more so assuming that everyone would have help until a self-sufficient amount is established
If the numbers of lions in the Mara have reached the level of needing intervention of this sort, then it would be in large part, if not entirely, the result of the level of poaching that is seemingly tolerated with little to no recourse for the offenders.
(10-24-2024, 03:12 AM)adamstocks16 Wrote: I think that’s the issue with the Mara which I get confused with, when is it right to intervene and to what extent? Personally I am a strong advocate to let nature take its course in all situations, no matter how brutal we perceive things to be. Cubs and young nomadic males being killed are and always will be part of lion dynamics, I don’t believe it’s necessary to start messing with these dynamics by getting involved in certain scenarios but not others.
Why were the Kaskaz Males chased off on this occasion but nobody took any action when Spearboy was being mauled by the Mugoro Males or when Baba Yao himself was caught and attacked by the Sala’s Males? Those are just two examples I’ve mentioned but there is obviously many more. Granted those were both adult males at the time and this was only a young nomad but the point still stands. Random intervention with certain cases to me just seems more unusual than either intervening all the time or not at all.
Agreed entirely, the only time I agree with intervention taking place is when the damage has been caused by humans. We must not get involved in animal on animal conflict. In the very beginning, I felt very differently when I first began following lions, but I believe that may have been the suppressed tree hugger in me, that I never knew existed, and my fondness for these cats. After many conversations on these pages, I have since taken a different, more understanding, position.
I dont know. I dont think an overabundance of male lions is helping much in the recovery of the species due to the thread to cubs they pose.
If things were that dire, it would make more sense to focus on the lionesses or territorial males and leave the natural way of keeping balance intact.
Its simply not possible in a reserve for every young male lion or coalition to succeed and thrive.
I agree with the point that maybe these things are being done as they are under heavy pressure from their lions being poached, but at the same time they don’t even seem to care about that. We got a report about them sending rangers out looking for Olobor even after numerous sources confirmed he was speared to death all because they didn’t want to be honest and admit the problems they’re having with HWC.
In terms of them doing it for the lion population, it seems pretty stable to me, especially in the area where this took place. I mean if u look around the surrounding area, u have 7 Topi subadult males, 5 Rongai subadult males, 3 (now 2 Paradise boys - heard there could be 5 altogether but 3 seemed to have split off) 6 Fig Tree subadult males and u still have so many more nomads too. One death isn’t going to change the fact that so many more of these males are going to die, especially with this many big upcoming coalitions in close proximity, albeit a lot of them aren’t ready to challenge yet, but they eventually will.
(10-24-2024, 11:13 PM)KM600 Wrote: I agree with the point that maybe these things are being done as they are under heavy pressure from their lions being poached, but at the same time they don’t even seem to care about that. We got a report about them sending rangers out looking for Olobor even after numerous sources confirmed he was speared to death all because they didn’t want to be honest and admit the problems they’re having with HWC.
In terms of them doing it for the lion population, it seems pretty stable to me, especially in the area where this took place. I mean if u look around the surrounding area, u have 7 Topi subadult males, 5 Rongai subadult males, 3 (now 2 Paradise boys - heard there could be 5 altogether but 3 seemed to have split off) 6 Fig Tree subadult males and u still have so many more nomads too. One death isn’t going to change the fact that so many more of these males are going to die, especially with this many big upcoming coalitions in close proximity, albeit a lot of them aren’t ready to challenge yet, but they eventually will.
Exactly what I am saying. IF poaching is causing the numbers to be lower than they should be, then the simple solution is to enforce the laws that already exist. Though, as you mentioned, I am not sure we are at that point yet. However, in the Mara, they seem to have zero interest in that, instead choosing to allow the humans to encroach upon the lions territory, and then allowing them to kill them with impunity. It is disgusting, and is exactly why any time anyone asks me where they should go, if planning a safari, I always tell them to stay away from the Mara, at all costs. The only thing that will get them to change their corrupted stance, is for the tourism to cease, people to stop visiting the area. I guarantee you they will then change their current positions.
I do not take the position that the lions should be put before the people who live near them, but there is a way that they can coexist, as has been proven for decades. It is only recently when the corrupt officials in that area have decided to stop enforcing the laws, and to allow the people to enter into the park however they please, and then to kill the wildlife that lives there by claiming they are getting too close. Stop them from walking their cows into the park to graze, and if they continue, lock them up, and it will stop.
What I believe is happening, in regards to these human interventions into a natural process is people who are so arrogant as to actually believe it is OK to insert themselves into this process. I saw another video (I can share it here, if anyone is interested), just recently, a mother leopard protecting her two cubs, actually fights with a lioness who was approaching their den. The size difference was remarkable, but she was going to protect her cubs at any cost. As the fight is happening and the leopard is clearly losing, sitting inside of the safari truck is a woman, who can clearly be heard saying "I don't like this", as if that even plays into what is happening, she then asks the guide "Can't you scare them?", and then the kicker of it all, she literally tries to growl/roar, at the fighting cats. I believe such people have been allowed to insert themselves into these guide reserves/companies, and are now trying to affect the natural order of things in the wild, by inserting themselves and their feelings.
Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara
