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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-11-2019, 10:16 PM by BorneanTiger )

(11-11-2019, 07:59 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(11-05-2019, 01:05 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: A slight error in that document "Tigers are naturally absent in ... Borneo". If my namesake tiger became extinct in prehistoric times, like the Ngandong, Wanhsien, Trinil and Longdan tigers, then it's bizarre that Bornean natives revere the tiger in a manner similar as people in places where there are still tigers, like China and India, even if that means keeping skins or teeth of tigers as souvenirs or holy artefacts: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-tigers-...awan-japan

As it is, Asian natives today wouldn't revere the Ngandong, Wanhsien, Trinil and Longdan tigers in the same way as they would for the Amur and Bengal tigers, would they?

There is no error, tigers are naturally absent in Borneo, they did not live there anymore, based on evidence. In Pleistocene times, they DO lived there but there is no evidence that they survived in "modern" times. Tigers from Ngandong, Wanhsien and Trinil were tigers that lived in Java and China, and we know that tigers still lived there in modern times and in large natural populations. It was the human that caused they extinctions in the wild. There is no difference (apart from size) between the Pleistocene tigers and Holocene tigers, based in the fossils, so there is no comparison, you say "Asian natives today wouldn't revere the Ngandong, Wanhsien, Trinil and Longdan tigers in the same way as they would for the Amur and Bengal tigers" but that do not make sence, those names (Ngandong, Wanhsien, Amur, Bengal) are modern "man-made" names, a tiger will be a tiger for an Asian native.

Finally, the Longdan "tiger" is not a tiger per se, but a very close relative just like a cave "lion" is to a modern true lion.

What I meant was that Bornean natives revere the tiger in a similar way as say people in Western and Central Asia (where the Caspian tiger occurred) revere the tiger, as if the Bornean tiger was an animal that occurred recently, like the Caspian tiger. The Caspian tiger lives on the art and literature of Western and Central Asia, and likewise, the Bornean tiger is ritually revered by Bornean natives, as pointed out by myself and Phatio earlier. To quote Wijaya of Mongabay: https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-bo...of-tigers/

"One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon. When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs. “These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.”

“What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?”

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”


*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors.
“We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage. “Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”"



The Caspian tiger featured on Azerbaijani stamps: http://www.azermarka.az/en/1994.php?suba...cat=10&

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author



By contrast, we only know of the prehistoric Ngandong, Wanhsien and Trinil tigers and the Longdan 'tigrine' cat from fossils, and it was only after the discovery of their fossils that they have come to dominate the imagination of people, whereas the memory of the Bornean and Caspian tigers have been kept alive, even without having to dig up fossils, so it appears that the Bornean tiger was an animal that occurred recently, like its Caspian, Javan and Balinese relatives, and that the reason for its extinction was the same as that of those tigers: persecution by humans.

What @phatio posted earlier which IMO destroys the likelihood that the Bornean tiger became extinct at the end of the Pleistocene (we don't have skins of the Ngandong, Wanhsien and Trinil tigers and Longdan tigrine cat, at least none that we know of, unless say a frozen Wanhsien tiger is discovered, like for those Upper Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion cubs): https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...s?page=146

(04-10-2019, 03:26 PM)phatio Wrote: Was Borneo once a land of tigers?

The scientific consensus is that while tigers did inhabit the Indonesian islands of Java and Bali, and still live in Sumatra, they never lived in Borneo.
Indigenous peoples in Borneo say otherwise. So-called ‘tiger fangs,’ for example, often feature in traditional Dayak ceremonies.
Some researchers wonder if the question of whether tigers lived in Borneo has gotten short shrift from experts who should be paying more attention to local communities.

PALANGKARAYA, Indonesia — One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon.

When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.” What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”


*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. The present scientific consensus is that no one in Kalimantan has ever found a tiger. Researchers think the only tigers in Indonesia are in Bali (now extinct), Java (thought to be extinct) and Sumatra (only a few hundred left).

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors. “We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”


*This image is copyright of its original author

Fangs from a tiger or a clouded leopard?

After encountering this phenomenon, I contacted Yoan Dinata, chairperson of Forum HarimauKita, an NGO, about the possibility of a long-lost species of Bornean tiger. “There is no record or scholarship of tigers ever living in Kalimantan,” Dinata said. “But there is a possibility that in the past they did live there, because the islands of Java, Sumatra and Borneo were once fused with mainland Southeast Asia.”

According to Dinata, in Kalimantan today there is only the Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi). “I don’t know if the fangs adorning all of those mandau blades are the fangs of tigers or clouded leopards,” he said. Dinata suggested that there should be more research as to the origin of the fangs. “If they really are tiger fangs, we should study how old they are.”

Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife. As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record. For example, findings that the Sumatran rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis) might exist in Kalimantan were questioned by some researchers. Only after evidence such as horns and tracks were found did experts begin to seriously explore the existence of this species. As a result, experts finally met the Sumatran rhino in Borneo.

Maybe at a historical moment the tracks of a Bornean tiger will be revealed based on information from local communities. Who knows?
https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-bo...of-tigers/
by Taufik Wijaya on 7 November 2016 | Translated by Philip Jacobson

----------------------------------

Recently I came across an article about Bornean Tiger written by a local bornean guy. very interesting but of course it's in indonesian, you can use translate if you want to read the whole story.
https://folksofdayak.wordpress.com/2018/...tau-fakta/
it is said there were/are tigers in Borneo. The indigenous peoples of Borneo, commonly known as Dayak called the big cat "Haramaong, Remaong, Lencau" etc. and they know the larger striped cat is different from smaller clouded leopard which they called "Kule".
according to the writter, he/she has some Bornean tiger's canines which is much larger than their Sumatran's cousin. unfortunately he/she dind't post the comparison picture. The Dayak people also made "Besunung", one of their traditional clothes from real Bornean tiger skins.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author



@GrizzlyClaw and @tigerluver i need your help once again to determine the originality of these allegedly Bornean tiger canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


let say if these canines and skins were real, some people suggest they probably got those stuff from trading with sumatran, javan or malayan people where tigers existed there. but i highly doubt that, as the indigenous peoples of Borneo are forest dweller peoples. They live completely from their jungle, their home, the only resources they knew for so long. until fairly recently these people hardly knew about money, let alone trading with foreign people.

Here's some sighting reports from my quick search. May 2017
https://www.borneonews.co.id/berita/6344...da-harimau
witness insisted they saw a tiger not a clouded leopard because the animal is larger and longer, and it's a striped cat not spotted. the animal's skin is as clean and soft as carpet, they added. 

from March 2018
https://www.indopos.co.id/read/2018/03/0...uk-sekolah

*This image is copyright of its original author

the authority checking animals pugmark

Interestingly, all of the story above coming from the same area, more or less around the yellow circle in the map below

*This image is copyright of its original author


what do you think guys? is this false alarm or have we been missing something here?

another interesting read
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cal_record
https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._existence
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-13-2019, 11:21 PM by BorneanTiger )

See this: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-hybridi...6#pid94496
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United States Dennis Offline
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(11-13-2019, 11:11 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Years before the Cat Specialist Group published the classification of 2 subspecies in 2017, this Mexican zoo was in such a rush to find a mate for a male Amur tiger that they got a Bengal tigress to mate with it, and produce a hybrid litter of cubs:

"AUDIO AS INCOMING

1. Various of female Bengal tiger with her cubs inside enclosure

2. Close-up of three cubs resting in hay

3. SOUNDBITE: (Spanish) Felipe Ramirez Sanchez, Jaguar Zoo veterinarian:

"The Siberian tiger species is a species that is in danger of extinction. Currently there are fewer than 2,000 of them in the wild, but there are more in captivity and there are different organisations around the world that are trying make sure this species does not disappear. In this park, we have a (male) Siberian tiger and it's important to us that they reproduce."

4. Various of female tiger cleaning her cubs in their enclosure

5. Mid of cubs

6. SOUNDBITE: (Spanish) Felipe Ramirez Sanchez, Jaguar Zoo veterinarian:

"This litter is the result of the mating of a female Bengal tiger and a male Siberian tiger. Despite being two different subspecies, the cross-mating was done successfully and the cubs are in good condition."

7. Close-up of cub opening its mouth

8. Mid female tiger with cub climbing over her paw

9. Various of cubs with their mother

10. Close-up of cubs

11. Mid of cubs sleeping while mother sits next to them

StorylineGo to top
Jaguar Zoo in southern Mexico has three new members, a litter of half-Bengal, half-Siberian tiger cubs born on 3 April.

The cubs made their public debut on Tuesday.

The zoo, located 43 kilometres (26 miles) south east of the city of Oaxaca, mated their 12-year-old Siberian male tiger named Yagul with an 8-year-old female Bengal tiger, Yaki, to produce the litter of three.

"Despite being from two different subspecies, the cross-mating was done successfully and the cubs are in good condition," said the zoo's veterinarian, Felipe Ramirez Sanchez.

Although the zoo lacks a specific breeding program for the critically endangered Siberian tigers, also known as Amur tigers, Ramirez said that they hope to find a Siberian female to mate with Yagul to produce fully Siberian cubs.

"The Siberian tiger species is a species that is in danger of extinction. Currently there are fewer than 2,000 of them in the wild," he noted, saying also that they will start searching for a Siberian mate in other Mexican zoos. Bengal tigers are more numerous and are only considered threatened," he said.

The relatively small zoo receives around a thousand visitors each week and features 70 animals from 50 different species."





I think the tigress herself is a hybrid between a Siberian and Bengal. After all, they don't really know for sure, she doesn't really look Bengal, more like a mix of both. And Siberian and Bengal tigers are definitely a separate subspecies no doubt about that.. wasn't there are study that showed contrary to the classification of 2 sub species?
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 07:10 AM by Rishi )

(11-13-2019, 11:44 AM)Dennis Wrote:
(11-13-2019, 11:11 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Years before the Cat Specialist Group published the classification of 2 subspecies in 2017, this Mexican zoo was in such a rush to find a mate for a male Amur tiger that they got a Bengal tigress to mate with it, and produce a hybrid litter of cubs:

"AUDIO AS INCOMING

1. Various of female Bengal tiger with her cubs inside enclosure

2. Close-up of three cubs resting in hay

3. SOUNDBITE: (Spanish) Felipe Ramirez Sanchez, Jaguar Zoo veterinarian:

"The Siberian tiger species is a species that is in danger of extinction. Currently there are fewer than 2,000 of them in the wild, but there are more in captivity and there are different organisations around the world that are trying make sure this species does not disappear. In this park, we have a (male) Siberian tiger and it's important to us that they reproduce."

4. Various of female tiger cleaning her cubs in their enclosure

5. Mid of cubs

6. SOUNDBITE: (Spanish) Felipe Ramirez Sanchez, Jaguar Zoo veterinarian:

"This litter is the result of the mating of a female Bengal tiger and a male Siberian tiger. Despite being two different subspecies, the cross-mating was done successfully and the cubs are in good condition."

7. Close-up of cub opening its mouth

8. Mid female tiger with cub climbing over her paw

9. Various of cubs with their mother

10. Close-up of cubs

11. Mid of cubs sleeping while mother sits next to them

StorylineGo to top
Jaguar Zoo in southern Mexico has three new members, a litter of half-Bengal, half-Siberian tiger cubs born on 3 April.

The cubs made their public debut on Tuesday.

The zoo, located 43 kilometres (26 miles) south east of the city of Oaxaca, mated their 12-year-old Siberian male tiger named Yagul with an 8-year-old female Bengal tiger, Yaki, to produce the litter of three.

"Despite being from two different subspecies, the cross-mating was done successfully and the cubs are in good condition," said the zoo's veterinarian, Felipe Ramirez Sanchez.

Although the zoo lacks a specific breeding program for the critically endangered Siberian tigers, also known as Amur tigers, Ramirez said that they hope to find a Siberian female to mate with Yagul to produce fully Siberian cubs.

"The Siberian tiger species is a species that is in danger of extinction. Currently there are fewer than 2,000 of them in the wild," he noted, saying also that they will start searching for a Siberian mate in other Mexican zoos. Bengal tigers are more numerous and are only considered threatened," he said.

The relatively small zoo receives around a thousand visitors each week and features 70 animals from 50 different species."





I think the tigress herself is a hybrid between a Siberian and Bengal. After all, they don't really know for sure, she doesn't really look Bengal, more like a mix of both. And Siberian and Bengal tigers are definitely a separate subspecies no doubt about that.. wasn't there are study that showed contrary to the classification of 2 sub species?

Neither of the studies were absolute... The first one argued that all genes were present in all tigers back in the days. It claimed that whatever differences exist today are because of them getting separated from each other due to human interference. If one takes old hunting trophies & museum specimens into consideration, the genetic difference become negligible within the mainland & sundaland subspecies. While they proposed those be considered only subspecies, there is still a good chance that Mainland & Sundaland are two broader clades (like lions have Northern & Southern), with several closely related subspecies falling under the two groups.
The second "study" just picked few number of zoo tigers at random & "proved" that all tiger subspecies are genetically different. 

Anyways, the concept of clades & subspecies are all human constructs. Whatever is the level of differences between them, we need to consider them separate and protect them accordingly. Scientific studies are often proven wrong or incomplete in future and we can't risk producing genetic-cocktails based on a single hypothesis. Even within the Bengal subspecies that is spread over a large area, regional variations are clearly visible.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 04:41 AM by peter )

BORNEAN TIGER

This thread, apart from a few exceptions, is about wild tigers, not captive tigers. It would be appreciated if you can move your post to a more suiting thread.

If you do, add recent information about the number of wild Amur tigers in order to prevent confusion. There are 550-600 wild Amur tigers in Russia and a few dozen in the northeastern part of China.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(11-13-2019, 04:25 PM)peter Wrote: BORNEAN TIGER

This thread, apart from a few exceptions, is about wild tigers, not about captive tigers. It would be appreciated if you can move your post to a more suiting thread.

If you do, add recent information about the number of wild Amur tigers in order to prevent confusion. There are 550-600 wild Amur tigers in Russia and a few dozen in the northeastern part of China.

Done: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-hybridi...6#pid94496
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