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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

United States RakeshMondal Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-07-2019, 02:47 PM by RakeshMondal )

(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

This is the video, right?





I found another picture of him training. He looks very large in this picture, very large frame, one of a 250+ kg tiger.



*This image is copyright of its original author
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Finland Shadow Online
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(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

One thing about Amur tigers, which crosses in my mind time to time is difference between winter and summer. How much fat do they gain for winter and cold. Mammals of the Soviet Union mentioned, that two tigers were studied and 20% of their body weight was fat. Which is something animals up north have to have to protect them for cold.

I have never seen if that 20% is on upper limit, average or what. Anyway, if animal has in summer... let´s say 7% fat. It would mean, that 250 kg tiger in summer would be in winter  290,63 kg if 20% fat.

But I have no idea in what time Igor has been weighed, but from zoo that 250 kg is only measurement, which I have seen.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-07-2019, 06:24 PM by BorneanTiger )

(08-07-2019, 02:54 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

One thing about Amur tigers, which crosses in my mind time to time is difference between winter and summer. How much fat do they gain for winter and cold. Mammals of the Soviet Union mentioned, that two tigers were studied and 20% of their body weight was fat. Which is something animals up north have to have to protect them for cold.

I have never seen if that 20% is on upper limit, average or what. Anyway, if animal has in summer... let´s say 7% fat. It would mean, that 250 kg tiger in summer would be in winter  290,63 kg if 20% fat.

But I have no idea in what time Igor has been weighed, but from zoo that 250 kg is only measurement, which I have seen.

Do you mean pages 169–171? Note that the Pyandzh River is a tributary of the Amu Darya on the border of Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and that Middle Asia (Central Asia) was part of the range of the Caspian tiger, and that Heptner and Sludskiy considered it to have been around when they published their book in 1971: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...search/fat

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Finland Shadow Online
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Yes and as you can see, they are talking about tigers from Sikhote-Alin in the book. So we can leave Caspian tigers safely out of this discussion, because Igor was Amur tiger.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-07-2019, 11:09 PM by peter )

(08-07-2019, 02:45 PM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

This is the video, right?





I found another picture of him training. He looks very large in this picture, very large frame, one of a 250+ kg tiger.



*This image is copyright of its original author

a - Video

No, I was referring to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSR95Lf7MAA

In the video, 'Igor' was well past his prime. Age has quite an effect in tigers in that they often quickly lose a lot of muscle mass. Compare the tiger in the video to the tiger in the photograph I posted. Same animal. 

b - About Igor

In his prime, 'Igor' was both large and robust:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The photographs I have strongly suggest 'Igor' was a bit larger and more robust than Amur tiger 'Jeltzin'. That tiger was actually weighed. In his prime, 'Jeltzin' was 270 kg.:


*This image is copyright of its original author


c - On the effect of old age (and disease) in captive male Amur tigers (in European zoos)

Based on reliable reports and a number of good photographs of different large male Amur tigers, I'd say 'Igor' might have been close to 300 kg. in his prime. In the video, however, he seemed closer to 200 kg. The difference, therefore, could have been as much as 150 pounds (68,04 kg.), if not 200 pounds (90,72 kg.).

I've seen it in more than one male Amur tiger. For some reason, captive male Amur tigers are more affected by old age than captive male tigers of other subspecies. Apparently, it isn't much different in wild male Amur tigers. Just before they perish, they lose a lot of muscle mass.

d - Tigers and muscle mass

What I have on both prime and old male captive Amur tigers strongly suggest that weight largely is a result of muscle mass, not fat. Wild Amur tigers, in order to deal with the long and harsh Russian winter, store fat in late autumn and winter, but it doesn't result in heavy tigers. The heaviest Amur tiger actually weighed, a young adult male of very modest size, was 212 kg. If anything, wild Amur tigers are a bit smaller than their captive relatives (referring to Amur tigers in European zoos). With 'smaller', I mean they're not as heavy.

e - Wild Amur tigers

In long and severe winters, maintaining large muscles could be a costly affair. Perhaps it's more efficient to store fat in order to overcome energy deficiences in winter. In summer, however, fat has no function. 

My guess is the violent fluctuations in weight observed in some Amur tigers were not a result of more or less fat, but something else. Life in the Russian Far East is far from easy. Tiger 'Dale', the infamous bear hunter, ranged between 445 and 375 pounds. That last weight was on a full stomach. Without the roe deer, he could have been 345 pounds. What was the reason he lost about 100 pounds? Nobody knows, but they did notice he lost 3 canines somewhere between 445 and 345 pounds. A fight gone wrong, perhaps? Injuries no doubt have a significant impact on a professional hunter in the Russian Far East. Same for disease.        

f - Food intake, assumptions and adjustments

One often reads stories about wild tigers eating 20-40 kg. of meat in one sitting, but these assumptions could be quite incorrect. According to Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger - Based upon observations in the west-central Sichote-Alin mountains, 1970-1973, 1996-2010', 2nd revised edition, Vladivostok, 2012), wild Amur tigers are very modest eaters:

" ... Tigers spend from several hours to 3-4 days near a carcass, and use of carcass was not so much dependent upon its size, as upon tiger's level of satiation. It is not uncommon for adult male tigers to consume no more than 25-50% of a kill ... " (pp. 148).

So much for assumptions on actual field weights and the adjustments so many biologists prefer, so it seems.

g - Muscle mass and fat in wild Amur tigers

As for assumptions on fat and muscle mass in wild and captive Amur tigers. In my opinion, too many things are unclear to get to conclusions. Big cats in general seem to have a few secrets in this department. Wild Amur tigers have to deal with heat waves, harsh winters, mountain slopes and powerful prey animals like wild boars and bears. A slight injury could result in less speed and starvation. The conditions no doubt have an effect on their metabolism.

The largest tiger ever shot by the Jankowski's in June or July 1943 (unclear) was at least 300 kg., V. Jankowski wrote in his letter to V. Mazak. In his own book, however, he wrote the tiger was 350 kg. It was a very big tiger by any standard. The photograph didn't show a fat tiger, but according to V. Jankovski the tiger was as fat as they come. It apparently didn't hamper him in any way, as he had killed and eaten a bear just before he was shot. Only the head and a paw remained. I never saw a photograph showing a fat wild Amur tiger, but it could be that fat and muscle are very close relatives in wild Amur tigers. So close, they're all but inseparable.

h - Muscle mass and fat in captive male Amur tigers

All photographs of exceptional captive Amur tigers (those exceeding 600 pounds) show fit tigers. Same for 'Igor', 'Jeltzin' and a host of others of which photographs were posted. For now, based on what I have, my guess is weight and muscle mass are strongly related in tigers. Exceptional tigers are exceptional as a result of a combination between length and muscle mass. Just before they perish, they lose just about everything they have. The only logical explanation is muscle mass.

For some reason, the relation between muscle mass and weight is very strong in tigers. I'm not saying it's different in lions, but I noticed lion skeletons usually are a bit bigger than tiger skeletons, This although the tiger had been heavier in life in every case. One could conclude bones seem to be more important in lions. In tigers, it seems to be muscle mass.

The only reason I can think of is tigers, as solitary hunters, need to be able to adapt quickly to specific conditions. It takes a lot of time to adapt bones. Muscles respond in less than a year, if not sooner. But I readily admit there's not enough to get to good conclusions, meaning we entered the department of speculation.
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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 08-07-2019, 09:29 PM by Shadow )

(08-07-2019, 08:18 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:45 PM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

This is the video, right?





I found another picture of him training. He looks very large in this picture, very large frame, one of a 250+ kg tiger.



*This image is copyright of its original author

No, I was referring to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSR95Lf7MAA

Igor was treated for serious problems with his teeth. Most of them were all but gone.

In the video, he was well past his prime. Age has quite an effect in tigers in that they often quickly lose a lot of muscle mass. Compare the tiger in the video to the tiger in the photograph I posted. Same animal. 

In his prime, 'Igor' was both large and robust:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The photographs I have strongly suggest 'Igor' was larger and bigger than Amur tiger 'Jeltzin'. That tiger was actually weighed. In his prime, 'Jeltzin' was 270 kg.:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Based on reliable reports and a number of good photographs of different large male Amur tigers, I'd say 'Igor' might have been close to 300 kg. in his prime. In the video, however, he was closer to 200 kg. The difference, therefore, could have been as much as 150 pounds (68,04 kg.), if not 200 pounds (90,72 kg.).

I've seen it in more than one male Amur tiger. For some reason, captive male Amur tigers are more affected by old age than captive male tigers of other subspecies. Apparently, it isn't much different in wild male Amur tigers. Just before they perish, they lose a lot of mass. Muscle mass, that is.

What I have on prime and old male captive Amur tigers strongly suggest that weight seems to be a result of muscle mass foremost. Wild Amur tigers, in order to deal with the long Russian winter, store fat in late autumn and winter, but it doesn't result in exceptional tigers. If anything, wild Amur tigers are a bit smaller than their captive relatives (referring to Amur tigers in European zoos). With 'smaller', I mean they're not as heavy.

Igor was born 2002, it was treated for dental problems 2013, when it was 10-11 years old. So 2010 it has been 7-8 years old. It died 2015 in age of 13 years old. It died earlier, than captive tigers usually because of illness. There are quite a lot of videos and photos. When I look at tiger Jeltzin, overall appearance looks like to be quite same. I don´t have now time, but I can put later links to several videos and photos of Igor. It was very handsome tiger, but before it died, it lost a lot of weight, maybe last 6 months or so. It was pity to watch some footage from that time, when it was already in bad shape :/
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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 03:14 PM by Shadow )

This is one quite good video to see size of Igor. In one article, which I saw there was said, that Igor would be 300 kg and when standing on hind legs 3 meters tall.

When looking at this video from 4:21 to 4:31 it is very easy to notice, that Igor isn´t that tall on hind legs unless that trainer is 250 cm tall and I dare to say, that he isn´t. So when Igor stands on hind legs, he is something like 230-240 cm tall. Noticing that makes it easier to think, that what zoo tells in their brochure is quite close to the truth. It is good to remember, that Igor stands there also at least 5 cm higher, than this zoo-keeper. 

Anyway even though perspective often makes estimations difficult, this zoo-keeper gives that meat while standing in quite normal way, no need to stretch himself as high as he ever can reach. So it´s quite easy to figure out how high he reaches there considering, that he is about average tall. Danish language is difficult to understand, all I can hear and understand, that in the end of this video zoo-keeper mention 200 kg at some point, but I really can´t say what he means by it. He is talking about Igor there after 4:30, but maybe @Pantherinae could understand better if here are no Danish members to help :)

Anyway this video is quite good, not edited by any fanboy etc. Not the best quality, but all there and it can be seen, that big, but still in that range what big tigers can be expected to be. Not "supersized" I mean.




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( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 03:14 PM by Shadow )

One more about Igor, I asked from Odense zoo about it just for curiosity and also getting some perspective when making estimations about tigers.

Quote from reply:

"It's a bit difficult to give you an exact answer, as we haven't written Igor's measurements down anywhere, so it's mostly from memory.

I asked Igor's zookeeper, and she remembers weighing him at around 215-220 kilos. That's without his tail, by the way, as they had some trouble fitting both body and tail on the scale."

After that I asked again and attached also their brochure from 2013. I asked if there is some more information still. A got this today:

"220 kilos doesn't sound like an awful lot when looking at him, but you have to factor in his tail as well. I'm told by the zookeepers that it may weigh as much as 15 kilos, bringing him up in the vicinty of the 250 kilos mentioned in the articles you've linked.

That being said, he was no doubt heavier at some point. He lost weight due to his illness, because he couldn't move as well as he used to. But as we only weigh our tigers when they are sedated, we haven't got an exact weight of him at his heaviest, as there (luckily) weren't any reason to sedate him.

The 250 kilos mentioned in our annual report from 2013 are our best guess at his weight in his prime. He might have been a bit heavier, but I'm told by the zookeepers that 300 kilos is a stretch too far."
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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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(08-07-2019, 08:18 PM)peter Wrote: I've seen it in more than one male Amur tiger. For some reason, captive male Amur tigers are more affected by old age than captive male tigers of other subspecies. Apparently, it isn't much different in wild male Amur tigers. Just before they perish, they lose a lot of muscle mass.

Why did Igor perish, was it a natural death like of old age?
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( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 04:08 PM by Shadow )

(08-07-2019, 08:18 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:45 PM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 02:35 PM)peter Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 01:01 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(08-07-2019, 07:57 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote:
(08-06-2019, 08:51 PM)peter Wrote: Captive tiger 'Igor' from the Odense zoo was known for his size. My guess is he compared to the Duisburg zoo male Amur tiger. That one was 320 cm. in total length measured 'between pegs' and estimated at 280-300 kg. in his prime:


*This image is copyright of its original author

That tiger is enormous no doubt about that. That guy's head can literally fit in the tigers mouth.

The tiger is really cute awww.

Igor was big, in zoo advertisement it was told to have been 250 kg, about 551 lbs.

http://tourcom.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OdenseZoo_Aarsrapport2013_4KORR_NY.pdf

One article: https://www.fyens.dk/odense/Usaedvanligt-besoeg-Slingrende-tiger-scannet-paa-retsmedicinsk/artikel/2394807

There are also articles from same time, saying, that 300 kg or almost 300 kg, it variates in different medias. Difficult to say, but when zoo has it printed by themselves, it looks like some reporters have been more accurate than others.

Anyway, big boy.

I saw a video in which Igor, by then well past his prime, was treated for a problem with his teeth. Although large, he didn't seem 300 kg. In his prime, however, he could have been quite close. I'll try to find the video.

This is the video, right?





I found another picture of him training. He looks very large in this picture, very large frame, one of a 250+ kg tiger.



*This image is copyright of its original author

a - Video

No, I was referring to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSR95Lf7MAA

In the video, 'Igor' was well past his prime. Age has quite an effect in tigers in that they often quickly lose a lot of muscle mass. Compare the tiger in the video to the tiger in the photograph I posted. Same animal. 

b - About Igor

In his prime, 'Igor' was both large and robust:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The photographs I have strongly suggest 'Igor' was a bit larger and more robust than Amur tiger 'Jeltzin'. That tiger was actually weighed. In his prime, 'Jeltzin' was 270 kg.:


*This image is copyright of its original author


c - On the effect of old age (and disease) in captive male Amur tigers (in European zoos)

Based on reliable reports and a number of good photographs of different large male Amur tigers, I'd say 'Igor' might have been close to 300 kg. in his prime. In the video, however, he seemed closer to 200 kg. The difference, therefore, could have been as much as 150 pounds (68,04 kg.), if not 200 pounds (90,72 kg.).

I've seen it in more than one male Amur tiger. For some reason, captive male Amur tigers are more affected by old age than captive male tigers of other subspecies. Apparently, it isn't much different in wild male Amur tigers. Just before they perish, they lose a lot of muscle mass.

d - Tigers and muscle mass

What I have on both prime and old male captive Amur tigers strongly suggest that weight largely is a result of muscle mass, not fat. Wild Amur tigers, in order to deal with the long and harsh Russian winter, store fat in late autumn and winter, but it doesn't result in heavy tigers. The heaviest Amur tiger actually weighed, a young adult male of very modest size, was 212 kg. If anything, wild Amur tigers are a bit smaller than their captive relatives (referring to Amur tigers in European zoos). With 'smaller', I mean they're not as heavy.

e - Wild Amur tigers

In long and severe winters, maintaining large muscles could be a costly affair. Perhaps it's more efficient to store fat in order to overcome energy deficiences in winter. In summer, however, fat has no function. 

My guess is the violent fluctuations in weight observed in some Amur tigers were not a result of more or less fat, but something else. Life in the Russian Far East is far from easy. Tiger 'Dale', the infamous bear hunter, ranged between 445 and 375 pounds. That last weight was on a full stomach. Without the roe deer, he could have been 345 pounds. What was the reason he lost about 100 pounds? Nobody knows, but they did notice he lost 3 canines somewhere between 445 and 345 pounds. A fight gone wrong, perhaps? Injuries no doubt have a significant impact on a professional hunter in the Russian Far East. Same for disease.        

f - Food intake, assumptions and adjustments

One often reads stories about wild tigers eating 20-40 kg. of meat in one sitting, but these assumptions could be quite incorrect. According to Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger - Based upon observations in the west-central Sichote-Alin mountains, 1970-1973, 1996-2010', 2nd revised edition, Vladivostok, 2012), wild Amur tigers are very modest eaters:

" ... Tigers spend from several hours to 3-4 days near a carcass, and use of carcass was not so much dependent upon its size, as upon tiger's level of satiation. It is not uncommon for adult male tigers to consume no more than 25-50% of a kill ... " (pp. 148).

So much for assumptions on actual field weights and the adjustments so many biologists prefer, so it seems.

g - Muscle mass and fat in wild Amur tigers

As for assumptions on fat and muscle mass in wild and captive Amur tigers. In my opinion, too many things are unclear to get to conclusions. Big cats in general seem to have a few secrets in this department. Wild Amur tigers have to deal with heat waves, harsh winters, mountain slopes and powerful prey animals like wild boars and bears. A slight injury could result in less speed and starvation. The conditions no doubt have an effect on their metabolism.

The largest tiger ever shot by the Jankowski's in June or July 1943 (unclear) was at least 300 kg., V. Jankowski wrote in his letter to V. Mazak. In his own book, however, he wrote the tiger was 350 kg. It was a very big tiger by any standard. The photograph didn't show a fat tiger, but according to V. Jankovski the tiger was as fat as they come. It apparently didn't hamper him in any way, as he had killed and eaten a bear just before he was shot. Only the head and a paw remained. I never saw a photograph showing a fat wild Amur tiger, but it could be that fat and muscle are very close relatives in wild Amur tigers. So close, they're all but inseparable.

h - Muscle mass and fat in captive male Amur tigers

All photographs of exceptional captive Amur tigers (those exceeding 600 pounds) show fit tigers. Same for 'Igor', 'Jeltzin' and a host of others of which photographs were posted. For now, based on what I have, my guess is weight and muscle mass are strongly related in tigers. Exceptional tigers are exceptional as a result of a combination between length and muscle mass. Just before they perish, they lose just about everything they have. The only logical explanation is muscle mass.

For some reason, the relation between muscle mass and weight is very strong in tigers. I'm not saying it's different in lions, but I noticed lion skeletons usually are a bit bigger than tiger skeletons, This although the tiger had been heavier in life in every case. One could conclude bones seem to be more important in lions. In tigers, it seems to be muscle mass.

The only reason I can think of is tigers, as solitary hunters, need to be able to adapt quickly to specific conditions. It takes a lot of time to adapt bones. Muscles respond in less than a year, if not sooner. But I readily admit there's not enough to get to good conclusions, meaning we entered the department of speculation.

What comes to that fat layer of Amur tigers, that is one thing, which would be really interesting to know more. We can have different kind of estimations and opinions, but for me it feels just common sense, that Amur tigers as all animals up north have to have more fat in winter than summer. It looks like not too much information available and impossible to make conclusions based on weight changes of some individuals. One individual can be sick at some time causing abnormal weight changes etc. 

Naturally in this extra fat doesn´t mean obese, it´s about something what is necessary for survival in harsh conditions. Quite surprising actually how little there seems to be information about this issue. Or maybe there is some study, but just waits to be noticed. If finding some, Amur tiger thread might be then better place to continue that discussion. Maybe it´s needed to look closer some other animals, which live in same conditions and not hibernating like wolves, lynx etc. They for sure can give at least partial answers if tigers are less studied what comes to physical changes between summer and winter. Tigers aren´t that different after all, just big mammals :)
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-09-2019, 12:52 AM by Sanju )



@wwf_tigers
The Amur tigers are slowly expanding into mainland China. Our camera traps in the Amur Heilong landscape between Russia and China are studying their transboundary movement. According to IUCN, the latest tiger population estimated of 2015 in China is >7.
{from our Camera Trap Series} © Huangnihe Nature Reserve
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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India Rishi Offline
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(08-09-2019, 12:49 AM)Sanju Wrote:


@wwf_tigers
The Amur tigers are slowly expanding into mainland China. Our camera traps in the Amur Heilong landscape between Russia and China are studying their transboundary movement. According to IUCN, the latest tiger population estimated of 2015 in China is >7.
{from our Camera Trap Series} © Huangnihe Nature Reserve

...40+ as of 2018. Lots of them moving in from Russia.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(08-09-2019, 06:16 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(08-09-2019, 12:49 AM)Sanju Wrote:


@wwf_tigers
The Amur tigers are slowly expanding into mainland China. Our camera traps in the Amur Heilong landscape between Russia and China are studying their transboundary movement. According to IUCN, the latest tiger population estimated of 2015 in China is >7.
{from our Camera Trap Series} © Huangnihe Nature Reserve

...40+ as of 2018. Lots of them moving in from Russia.

See my reply here (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-amur-ti...1#pid89381), since this is about the Amur tiger.
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(08-08-2019, 02:03 AM)Shadow Wrote: This is one quite good video to see size of Igor. In one article, which I saw there was said, that Igor would be 300 kg and when standing on hind legs 3 meters tall.

When looking at this video from 4:21 to 4:31 it is very easy to notice, that Igor isn´t that tall on hind legs unless that trainer is 250 cm tall and I dare to say, that he isn´t. So when Igor stands on hind legs, he is something like 230-240 cm tall. Noticing that makes it easier to think, that what zoo tells in their brochure is quite close to the truth. It is good to remember, that Igor stands there also at least 5 cm higher, than this zoo-keeper. 

Anyway even though perspective often makes estimations difficult, this zoo-keeper gives that meat while standing in quite normal way, no need to stretch himself as high as he ever can reach. So it´s quite easy to figure out how high he reaches there considering, that he is about average tall. Danish language is difficult to understand, all I can hear and understand, that in the end of this video zoo-keeper mention 200 kg at some point, but I really can´t say what he means by it. He is talking about Igor there after 4:30, but maybe @Pantherinae could understand better if here are no Danish members to help :)

Anyway this video is quite good, not edited by any fanboy etc. Not the best quality, but all there and it can be seen, that big, but still in that range what big tigers can be expected to be. Not "supersized" I mean.





Igor is still an exceptional Amur  tiger, because I think it is rare for most wild male Amur tigers to grow to his size. Igor's skull is massive too, maybe his skull could be near the size of the skull of those male ligers.
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Finland Shadow Online
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(08-10-2019, 06:19 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(08-08-2019, 02:03 AM)Shadow Wrote: This is one quite good video to see size of Igor. In one article, which I saw there was said, that Igor would be 300 kg and when standing on hind legs 3 meters tall.

When looking at this video from 4:21 to 4:31 it is very easy to notice, that Igor isn´t that tall on hind legs unless that trainer is 250 cm tall and I dare to say, that he isn´t. So when Igor stands on hind legs, he is something like 230-240 cm tall. Noticing that makes it easier to think, that what zoo tells in their brochure is quite close to the truth. It is good to remember, that Igor stands there also at least 5 cm higher, than this zoo-keeper. 

Anyway even though perspective often makes estimations difficult, this zoo-keeper gives that meat while standing in quite normal way, no need to stretch himself as high as he ever can reach. So it´s quite easy to figure out how high he reaches there considering, that he is about average tall. Danish language is difficult to understand, all I can hear and understand, that in the end of this video zoo-keeper mention 200 kg at some point, but I really can´t say what he means by it. He is talking about Igor there after 4:30, but maybe @Pantherinae could understand better if here are no Danish members to help :)

Anyway this video is quite good, not edited by any fanboy etc. Not the best quality, but all there and it can be seen, that big, but still in that range what big tigers can be expected to be. Not "supersized" I mean.





Igor is still an exceptional Amur  tiger, because I think it is rare for most wild male Amur tigers to grow to his size. Igor's skull is massive too, maybe his skull could be near the size of the skull of those male ligers.

It for sure is, imo. Most Siberian tigers also in captivity are around 200 kg after all. It is quite rare to see 250 kg or more. When looking at what they told from Odense zoo, it has to be remembered, that Igor was treated 2010, when it was 7-8 years old and 2013, when it was 10-11 years old. It went to worse condition later, before it died 2015, so at some time 2014-2015 it started to limp and then went to bad condition before it was euthanized. Big one, no doubt about it. But good to know real weight, it is always interesting to see what are estimations and what is then reality.
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