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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-07-2019, 08:26 PM by Shadow )

I was a bit curious about it, that has discussion about tiger subspecies had any effect to Amur tiger conservation. I mean that, when Cat Specialis Group suggested, that only two subspecies of tigers. I asked from Korkeasaari zoo, which is participating to Amur tiger project and answer was, that so far there has been no changes. So they still treat Amur tigers as own subspecies. Person who answered to me told, that head of conservation projects in Korkeasaari zoo is right now at holiday, but she will ask more when that person is back again.

She also said, that this subspecies matter has been lately quite "hot potato" among conservation biologists :)
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United States tigerluver Offline
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More people may be watching these conversations than it seems:

Do dholes kill tigers? by Adrian Burton
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United Kingdom Sully Offline
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On dhole predation on tigers, I've always found that hard to believe. You see big packs of wild dogs not even go near a lion in Africa, and their numbers are demolished in lion range. I highly doubt dhole, smaller animals in similar numbered groups, would pose any threat to a healthy adult tiger, which are on average larger than your average lion. Furthermore, the study below would suggest dholes actively avoid tiger range, far from predating on the giant cats. Maybe in certain very favourable circumstances (sick/old/young/injured) a large pack of dholes would be able to overcome a tiger, but generally, I highly doubt the dogs would dare.

Competitive interactions between tigers, leopards, and dholes revealed in Kuiburi National Park

Posted on 22 August 2013
 
Tigers commonly coexist with two smaller potential competitors—leopards and dholes. Top predators like tigers often shape their communities through intraguild predation, and theory suggests that smaller predators should avoid larger ones, though the final outcome often depends on prey abundance. What are the prospects for the continued coexistence of these threatened species where prey occurs at low densities? This question is relevant for much of Asia, where predators and prey have been driven to low levels through poaching, but it has not been addressed, partly because low density populations of highly mobile animals are inherently difficult to study. 

Research by the Kuiburi Tiger Project has started to reveal the dynamics of low density predator-prey communities for the first time. The researchers tested predictions from intraguild predation theory at Kuiburi National Park, a WWF-Thailand tiger site where low density tigers, leopards and dholes compete for scarce prey. The research was recently published in the journal Biological Conservation. Sign-based occupancy surveys and camera trapping were used to investigate habitat use, spatial co-occurrence, prey selection, and activity patterns of the three predators. Obtaining the data took two years, during which the research team (which included Kuiburi park rangers) searched for tracks and signs of the predators and their prey along 128 1-km sign transects throughout a mountainous 350 sq. km study area. 50 camera traps were also monitored for four months to record activity patterns. 

Tiger habitat use was influenced mainly by the distribution of its four main prey species—pig, muntjac, gaur, and sambar. Similarly, leopard distribution matched the availability of its main prey, langur, but leopard avoided pigs—the preferred prey of tiger. Leopard and dhole had low rates of co-occurrence with tiger, indicating fine-scale spatial avoidance, and their detection probabilities were 47–52 per cent lower in tiger-occupied open grasslands (despite suitable prey there) compared to closed forest. Tigers were active mostly at night, whereas leopard and dhole were mainly diurnal, suggesting some temporal avoidance as well.

Tiger and dhole distributions in Kuiburi were strikingly divergent: dhole occupancy was 3 times higher than tiger in the north, where tigers and prey were scarce, but 4 times lower than tiger in the centre, where Kuiburi’s remaining tigers and prey were concentrated. This pattern is suggestive of mesopredator release—the release of smaller predators from top-down control on abundance and distribution after the decline of an apex predator. It is a common phenomenon around the world concurrent with the global decline of apex predators, but has not been documented before in Southeast Asia. 

In sum, tiger distribution was driven solely by prey availability, whereas leopard and dhole were influenced by a trade-off between prey availability and avoidance of tigers, mediated by habitat structure. Low density tigers face potential exploitation competition from more numerous leopards and dholes. But knowledge of the habitat-mediated risk effects we uncovered could inform tiger recovery efforts despite this disadvantage. Kuiburi National Park currently manages for wildlife recovery by creating open grasslands to improve habitat for ungulates. Our research indicates this strategy should benefit tigers in two ways. First, open habitats have higher prey diversity and abundance. Second, open habitats are used almost exclusively by tigers because of habitat-mediated risk effects—by extension, tigers should have undivided access to prey there
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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United States Greatearth Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-11-2019, 09:28 AM by Greatearth )

Shadow I forgot to answer about dhole and lion fanboy comment. But I became very lazy to answering any comments/messages.

However, about your question on tiger conservation. Of course it matters.
I am strongly against with 2 tiger subspecies. minnesota zoo sent hybrid tiger to the Seoul zoo during the Seoul Olympic 1988 and lied that those were pure Siberian tigers. Look all of those hybrid "American tiger" or any tigers outside of zoo in the world. How can you be sure tiger conservation will manage properly if it is the 2 subspecies? It's not just tiger, it's including every animals. I spoke with one elephant zookeeper. What she told me was that they are breeding Sri Lankan elephants and Thai elephants together in her zoo because there is no difference between those two elephants. I hope she is wrong about managing elephants in her zoo. However, should we trust single species believer?
I am not sure of lion becaue I don't care about lions. As far as I know, cat specialist group is accepting 2 lion subspecies as well. I hear all of story from single species biologists are saying like "It won't make sense why not to release African lion into the Gir since they are not huge genetic difference between the African and Asiatic lions."  However, I hear all of genetic bottleneck problems in lion population in the Ngorongoro crater since the last decade. So all of ignorant biologists/conservationists working on lions who brought up the single species idea... why aren't they release lions in the Samburu, Serengeti, and Masai Mara to Ngorongoro first before they are even worry about ones living in India?

No one can release different tiger subspecies into my country since I am going to hunt down that tiger by myself after they release it. As proud national animal of my country, the only pure Siberian tigers can live in my country. Pure Siberian tigers in North Korea, if they are still alive in wild. Then I would never allow them to mix with different tiger subspecies from the southern Asia.

I hear recent genetic analysis proved that tiger subspecies is actually 9 or 8 like last year. I am not sure who is the truth. We will never know the truth. I personally don't really care if it tiger is  2 or 9 subspecies. 100 years ago, Bengal tigers in western Myanmar/India/Bangladesh was genetically closer to Indochinese tigers lived in eastern Myanmar and near Indochinese countries if they are comparing to Bengal tigers in western/southern India such as Ranthambore, Sariska, Bandipur, and Kabin. However, it is impossible to say that Malayan tigers living in jungle of Malayan peninsula are very closely related to Bengal tigers living in snowy Himalaya in Bhutan/India/Nepal before passing Indochinese tigers in Indochina. So my suggestion is that tiger only should be reintroduce or mix by geologically closer areas. That's why I view tiger subspecies as original 9. After knowing and working in conservation and zoo,  those law would never follow if it is single species. Single species believers just mix and release tigers in different areas without thinking properly.
Animals evolved unique morphology/adaptation/gene to survive in specific places they are living in. That's why so many speciation as a result of geographic isolation in reptiles, amphibians, fishes, insects, and smaller mammals. Tigers are different since they are large mammals, but human should not act as creditor. Humans want to ruin this natural order? I guess crazy things will happen in future one day.


A fact about IUCN...  I can't trust any of all of IUCN cat specalist people running by west sometimes. Why aren't they worry about their country animals in Europe/North America first instead of obsessing Asian tigers or any animals living in Asia/Africa. After I worked in conservation. I don't believe conservation at all.
All of nature/wildlife in europe/north america.. There are already completely destroyed. There are many problems in other continent. However, internet/media are always attacking Asia and people in Asia for every problems. They are not informing human population growth and not even really helping poor locals struggling to survive. All they do is just blaming people in Asia and Africa for every problems (steve winter and national geographic are examples that i don't trust anything comes from them). I am not even sure if they know what is serious reason of poaching and other poaching animals like pet trading and bushmeat trade. I guess this is due to idiotic journalists who are writing news are problems. However, I still view negative about conservation.
From what I hear is that Cambodia and Laos once hold the second highest tiger populations along with Nepal until the 1980s. I am not sure if those countries really had the highest Indochinese tiger population since Thailand and Myanmar seemed to be the highest. However, those countries were gift with nature. Indochinese leopards were once wide spread entire Indochina until the 2000s. Israel once hold the highest Arabian leopard population in the Levant until the 1980s. Now, all of those animals are almost gone. And primitive vietnameses are still going other South EAst Asia to poach tigers. My Bangladesh friend told me that his country had so many animals between 1991-1996 when he was teen years. Now, they are almost gone just like tigers in Asia. The Sumatran rhino was much better situation than the Javan rhino 20 years ago. Now, they are about to fall in the black hole due to primitive han chinese/vietnamese and deforestation/poaching problems. My ranger friend in Sumatra, he believes that the Sumatran tigers won't survive in future despite ngos in west are whining crazy about it. They aren't informing true problem like human population, neither solving poverty in Indonesia. Even in India, tigers will only survive in national parks/reserves. All of African megafuana like rhino, elephant, buffalo, giraffe, and other animals once lived throughout sub saharan Africa. They are almost gone compared to 1980s. Next 20 years will be completely different world again. I highly doubt tigers or any other animals will survive. Even Dr. Linda Kerley agreed with me when I spoke to her. My friends in India, even they agree with it. People mindset has to change in Asia first, but it won't happen for a long time since many Asian countries were poor (and still in many Asian countries) until the 1980s. Most of parent generations. So I guess people born before 1978, or before millennial generation in 1982-1996. I will say that 90% of these generation don't really like animals since they grew up in poor life. Sad reality of the Asia continent to save our beloved tiger and other magnificent animals in Asia.

There are problems like resource, trash, global warming, trashes in ocean, depleting animals in ocean just like bushmeat. Conservation is not doing their job properly to save animals. All they do is slowing extinction rate of animals or blaming people for every problems. Animals won't survive in future unless the world banning the religions, and strict the birth control (that's the one thing I like about the Chinese government). I am very dubious about the future.
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United States Greatearth Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2019, 09:31 AM by Greatearth )

paul cooper

If you study the world history truly by yourself. Problems such as poverty and civil war (that lead poverty and poaching in many countries in Africa) in many places in Asia to Africa were caused from colonial countries from the Western Europe (Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy) and Japan. They caused all of these disasters with colonizing other countries. Looked what happened in Angola, Mozambique, Congo, Sahel countries in Africa. Central Asia and western Asia are also good example of it where many snow leopards and persian leopards are living in war zone. Of course the Caspian tiger and Asiatic cheetah were different stories along with many other animals. However, India to Southeast Asia were high hunting ground by WEstern European and English speaking people until the mid-1900s. They were also the highest skin importer until the 1970s. They are doing something these days since they are living in wealthy these days. However, they aren't informing human population growth and trying to solve poverty in poor countries. So they are not doing anything to save animals. Besides, rangers that are tracking poachers and removing traps to protect tigers or any animals are Asian. One ranger in Cambodia was shot by poachers on February. Forest department in Indian Sundarban was attacked by poachers in April. Many rangers in Southeast Asia are also receiving pressure from corrupted governments. However, who speaks about their lives compared to when people praised mr. Alan R. when he died just because he was sick?
Now, who is heros to saving tigers? 

In west, mostly USA, they breed tiger as "pet." Then abandoning them if they can't handle/afford it. Difference is that they don't eat those animals unlike china and vietnam. Actually, Central/South Americas and rich countries in Middle East are also the worst in this problem like smuggling and breeding those as pet. But conservation/animal charity ngos never speak about in middle east and central/south america. They are just attacking USA and Asia for every problem in this case. That makes another reason to not trusting ngo.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-11-2019, 12:01 PM by peter )

(06-11-2019, 05:24 AM)paul cooper Wrote:
(06-11-2019, 04:49 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Shadow I forgot to answer about dhole and lion fanboy comment. But I became very lazy to answering any comments/messages.

However, about your question on tiger conservation. Of course it matters.
I am strongly against with 2 tiger subspecies. minnesota zoo sent hybrid tiger to the Seoul zoo during the Seoul Olympic 1988 and lied that those were pure Siberian tigers. Look all of those hybrid "American tiger" or any tigers outside of zoo in the world. How can you be sure tiger conservation will manage properly if it is the 2 subspecies? It's not just tiger, it's including every animals. I spoke with one elephant zookeeper. What she told me was that they are breeding Sri Lankan elephants and Thai elephants together in her zoo because there is no difference between those two elephants. I hope she is wrong about managing elephants in her zoo. However, should we trust single species believer?
I am not sure of lion becaue I don't care about lions. As far as I know, cat specialist group is accepting 2 lion subspecies as well. I hear all of story from single species biologists are saying like "It won't make sense why not to release African lion into the Gir since they are not huge genetic difference between the African and Asiatic lions."  However, I hear all of genetic bottleneck problems in lion population in the Ngorongoro crater since the last decade. So all of ignorant biologists/conservationists working on lions who brought up the single species idea... why aren't they release lions in the Samburu, Serengeti, and Masai Mara to Ngorongoro first before they are even worry about ones living in India?

No one can release different tiger subspecies into my country since I am going to hunt down that tiger by myself after they release it. As proud national animal of my country that animal, the only pure Siberian tigers can live in my country. Pure Siberian tigers in North Korea if they are still alive in wild, I would never allow them to mix with different tiger subspecies from the southern Asia.

I hear recent genetic analysis proved that tiger subspecies is actually 9 or 8 like last year. I am not sure who is the truth. We will never know the truth. I personally don't really care if it tiger is  2 or 9 subspecies. 100 years ago, Bengal tigers in western Myanmar/India/Bangladesh was genetically closer to Indochinese tigers lived in eastern Myanmar and near Indochinese countries if they are comparing to Bengal tigers in western/southern India such as Ranthambore, Sariska, Bandipur, and Kabin. However, it is impossible to say that Malayan tigers living in jungle of Malayan peninsula are very closely related to Bengal tigers living in snowy Himalaya in Bhutan/India/Nepal before passing Indochinese tigers in Indochina. So my suggestion is that tiger only should be reintroduce or mix by geologically closer areas. That's why I view tiger subspecies as original 9. After knowing and working in conservation and zoo,  those law would never follow if it is single species. Single species believers just mix and release tigers in different areas without thinking properly.
Animals evolved unique morphology/adaptation/gene to survive in specific places they are living in. That's why so many speciation as a result of geographic isolation in reptiles, amphibians, fishes, insects, and smaller mammals. Tigers are different since it is large mammals, but human should not act as creditor." Humans want to ruin this natural order? I guess crazy things will happen in future one day.


A fact about IUCN...  I can't trust any of all of IUCN cat specalist people running by west sometimes. Why aren't they worry about their country animals in Europe/North America first instead of obsessing Asian tigers or any animals living in Asia/Africa. After I worked in conservation. I don't believe conservation at all.
All of nature/wildlife in europe/north america.. There are already completely destroyed. There are many problems in other continent. However, internet/media are always attacking Asia and people in Asia for every problems. They are not informing human population growth and not even really helping poor locals struggling to survive. All they do is just blaming people in Asia and Africa for every problems (steve winter and national geographic are examples that i don't trust anything comes from them). I am not even sure if they know what is serious reason of poaching and other poaching animals like pet trading and bushmeat trade. I guess this is due to idiotic journalists who are writing news are problems. However, I still view negative about conservation.
From what I hear is that Cambodia and Laos once hold the second highest tiger populations along with Nepal until 1980s. I am not sure if those countries really had the highest Indochinese tiger population since Thailand and Myanmar seemed to be the highest. However, those countries were gift with nature. Indochinese leopards were once wide spread entire Indochina until the 2000s. Israel once hold the highest Arabian leopard population in the Levant until the 1980s. Now, all of those animals are almost gone. And primitive vietnameses are still going other South EAst Asia to poach tigers. My Bangladesh friend told me that his country had so many animals between 1991-1996 when he was teen years. Now, they are almost gone just like tigers in Asia. The Sumatran rhino was much better situation than the Javan rhino. Now, they are about to fall in the black hole due to primitive han chinese/vietnamese and deforestation/poaching problems. My ranger friend in Sumatra, he believes that the Sumatran tigers won't survive in future despite ngos in west are whining crazy about it. They aren't informing true problem like human population, neither solving poverty in Indonesia. Even in India, tigers will only survive in national parks/reserves. All of African megafuana like rhino, elephant, buffalo, giraffe, and other animals once lived throughout sub saharan Africa. They are almost gone compared to 1980s. Next 20 years will be completely different world again. I highly doubt tigers or any other animals will survive, even Dr. Linda Kerley agreed with me when I spoke to her. My friends in India, even they are agree with it. People mindset has to change in Asia first, but it won't happen for a long time since many Asian countries were poor (and still in many Asian countries) until the 1980s. Most of parent generations. So I guess people born before 1978, or before millennial generation in 1982-1996. I will say that 90% of these generation don't really like animals since they grew up in poor life. Sad reality of the Asia continent to save our beloved tiger and other magnificent animals in Asia.

There are problems like resource, trash, global warming, trashes in ocean, depleting animals in ocean just like bushmeat. Conservation is not doing their job properly to save animals. All they do is slowing extinction rate of animals or blaming people for every problems. Animals won't survive in future unless the world banning the religions like catholic and islam, and strict the birth control (that's the one thing I like about the Chinese government). I am very dubious about the future.

I agree with you, @Greatearth. You can even tell that there are different subspecies. They are going to practically kill tigers doing this.

What is going on in the world is very bad. The westerners are basically the ones who saved tigers, thanks to them. If it wasnt for them, tigers wouldnt be alive right now. In asia people breed like rabbits and its out of hand and it all comes down to the fundamentals. Corruption and politics, greedy pricks who want to take over the world. We save ourselves if we save the planet. Most of this conservation stuff is a distraction from what is actually happening. Liberal agendas and jewish agendas. Look what is happening in the middle east. Fucksake, WWF is a joke. We need governments that have protecting and living among nature as government policy. But i forgot the Fascists lost the war.

Yes they lost Cooper.

And you lost your membership of Wildfact. 

The reasons are several in-depth explorations into the heart of stupidity. That's apart from politics, bloody racism, twisting facts and aggrevation. Furthermore, you crapped a good thread. 

More than enough for a permanent ban.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-22-2019, 02:52 PM by BorneanTiger )

(06-11-2019, 04:49 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Shadow I forgot to answer about dhole and lion fanboy comment. But I became very lazy to answering any comments/messages.

However, about your question on tiger conservation. Of course it matters.
I am strongly against with 2 tiger subspecies. minnesota zoo sent hybrid tiger to the Seoul zoo during the Seoul Olympic 1988 and lied that those were pure Siberian tigers. Look all of those hybrid "American tiger" or any tigers outside of zoo in the world. How can you be sure tiger conservation will manage properly if it is the 2 subspecies? It's not just tiger, it's including every animals. I spoke with one elephant zookeeper. What she told me was that they are breeding Sri Lankan elephants and Thai elephants together in her zoo because there is no difference between those two elephants. I hope she is wrong about managing elephants in her zoo. However, should we trust single species believer?
I am not sure of lion becaue I don't care about lions. As far as I know, cat specialist group is accepting 2 lion subspecies as well. I hear all of story from single species biologists are saying like "It won't make sense why not to release African lion into the Gir since they are not huge genetic difference between the African and Asiatic lions."  However, I hear all of genetic bottleneck problems in lion population in the Ngorongoro crater since the last decade. So all of ignorant biologists/conservationists working on lions who brought up the single species idea... why aren't they release lions in the Samburu, Serengeti, and Masai Mara to Ngorongoro first before they are even worry about ones living in India?

No one can release different tiger subspecies into my country since I am going to hunt down that tiger by myself after they release it. As proud national animal of my country, the only pure Siberian tigers can live in my country. Pure Siberian tigers in North Korea, if they are still alive in wild. Then I would never allow them to mix with different tiger subspecies from the southern Asia.

I hear recent genetic analysis proved that tiger subspecies is actually 9 or 8 like last year. I am not sure who is the truth. We will never know the truth. I personally don't really care if it tiger is  2 or 9 subspecies. 100 years ago, Bengal tigers in western Myanmar/India/Bangladesh was genetically closer to Indochinese tigers lived in eastern Myanmar and near Indochinese countries if they are comparing to Bengal tigers in western/southern India such as Ranthambore, Sariska, Bandipur, and Kabin. However, it is impossible to say that Malayan tigers living in jungle of Malayan peninsula are very closely related to Bengal tigers living in snowy Himalaya in Bhutan/India/Nepal before passing Indochinese tigers in Indochina. So my suggestion is that tiger only should be reintroduce or mix by geologically closer areas. That's why I view tiger subspecies as original 9. After knowing and working in conservation and zoo,  those law would never follow if it is single species. Single species believers just mix and release tigers in different areas without thinking properly.
Animals evolved unique morphology/adaptation/gene to survive in specific places they are living in. That's why so many speciation as a result of geographic isolation in reptiles, amphibians, fishes, insects, and smaller mammals. Tigers are different since they are large mammals, but human should not act as creditor. Humans want to ruin this natural order? I guess crazy things will happen in future one day.


A fact about IUCN...  I can't trust any of all of IUCN cat specalist people running by west sometimes. Why aren't they worry about their country animals in Europe/North America first instead of obsessing Asian tigers or any animals living in Asia/Africa. After I worked in conservation. I don't believe conservation at all.
All of nature/wildlife in europe/north america.. There are already completely destroyed. There are many problems in other continent. However, internet/media are always attacking Asia and people in Asia for every problems. They are not informing human population growth and not even really helping poor locals struggling to survive. All they do is just blaming people in Asia and Africa for every problems (steve winter and national geographic are examples that i don't trust anything comes from them). I am not even sure if they know what is serious reason of poaching and other poaching animals like pet trading and bushmeat trade. I guess this is due to idiotic journalists who are writing news are problems. However, I still view negative about conservation.
From what I hear is that Cambodia and Laos once hold the second highest tiger populations along with Nepal until the 1980s. I am not sure if those countries really had the highest Indochinese tiger population since Thailand and Myanmar seemed to be the highest. However, those countries were gift with nature. Indochinese leopards were once wide spread entire Indochina until the 2000s. Israel once hold the highest Arabian leopard population in the Levant until the 1980s. Now, all of those animals are almost gone. And primitive vietnameses are still going other South EAst Asia to poach tigers. My Bangladesh friend told me that his country had so many animals between 1991-1996 when he was teen years. Now, they are almost gone just like tigers in Asia. The Sumatran rhino was much better situation than the Javan rhino 20 years ago. Now, they are about to fall in the black hole due to primitive han chinese/vietnamese and deforestation/poaching problems. My ranger friend in Sumatra, he believes that the Sumatran tigers won't survive in future despite ngos in west are whining crazy about it. They aren't informing true problem like human population, neither solving poverty in Indonesia. Even in India, tigers will only survive in national parks/reserves. All of African megafuana like rhino, elephant, buffalo, giraffe, and other animals once lived throughout sub saharan Africa. They are almost gone compared to 1980s. Next 20 years will be completely different world again. I highly doubt tigers or any other animals will survive. Even Dr. Linda Kerley agreed with me when I spoke to her. My friends in India, even they agree with it. People mindset has to change in Asia first, but it won't happen for a long time since many Asian countries were poor (and still in many Asian countries) until the 1980s. Most of parent generations. So I guess people born before 1978, or before millennial generation in 1982-1996. I will say that 90% of these generation don't really like animals since they grew up in poor life. Sad reality of the Asia continent to save our beloved tiger and other magnificent animals in Asia.

There are problems like resource, trash, global warming, trashes in ocean, depleting animals in ocean just like bushmeat. Conservation is not doing their job properly to save animals. All they do is slowing extinction rate of animals or blaming people for every problems. Animals won't survive in future unless the world banning the religions, and strict the birth control (that's the one thing I like about the Chinese government). I am very dubious about the future.

No offence, but China, which is dominated by the Communist Party, and has a history of clamping down on religions, is part of the problem, not just for the tiger, but also for other animals such as the lion (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...59216.html), so why did you bring religion into this?

Take all Chinese populations of tigers, especially the South Chinese tiger, and compare them to the Bengal tiger in religion-dominated India, why are Chinese tigers endangered, compared to Indian tigers? That is partly because Mao Zedong, the founder of the Chinese system, instigated "anti-pest" campaigns to get rid of cattle-raiding "vermin" such as the tiger (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china...6920080710), and Chinese people, amongst others, are driving the business, even if illegal, of poaching tiger parts for use in traditional medicine: https://crownridgetigers.com/the-illegal...iger-parts

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, just recently, I read that China was considering lifting its ban on the use of tiger bone and rhino horn for medicinal purposes: https://crownridgetigers.com/the-illegal...iger-parts
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-11-2019, 01:12 PM by BorneanTiger )

(06-11-2019, 11:25 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(06-11-2019, 04:49 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Shadow I forgot to answer about dhole and lion fanboy comment. But I became very lazy to answering any comments/messages.

However, about your question on tiger conservation. Of course it matters.
I am strongly against with 2 tiger subspecies. minnesota zoo sent hybrid tiger to the Seoul zoo during the Seoul Olympic 1988 and lied that those were pure Siberian tigers. Look all of those hybrid "American tiger" or any tigers outside of zoo in the world. How can you be sure tiger conservation will manage properly if it is the 2 subspecies? It's not just tiger, it's including every animals. I spoke with one elephant zookeeper. What she told me was that they are breeding Sri Lankan elephants and Thai elephants together in her zoo because there is no difference between those two elephants. I hope she is wrong about managing elephants in her zoo. However, should we trust single species believer?
I am not sure of lion becaue I don't care about lions. As far as I know, cat specialist group is accepting 2 lion subspecies as well. I hear all of story from single species biologists are saying like "It won't make sense why not to release African lion into the Gir since they are not huge genetic difference between the African and Asiatic lions."  However, I hear all of genetic bottleneck problems in lion population in the Ngorongoro crater since the last decade. So all of ignorant biologists/conservationists working on lions who brought up the single species idea... why aren't they release lions in the Samburu, Serengeti, and Masai Mara to Ngorongoro first before they are even worry about ones living in India?

No one can release different tiger subspecies into my country since I am going to hunt down that tiger by myself after they release it. As proud national animal of my country, the only pure Siberian tigers can live in my country. Pure Siberian tigers in North Korea, if they are still alive in wild. Then I would never allow them to mix with different tiger subspecies from the southern Asia.

I hear recent genetic analysis proved that tiger subspecies is actually 9 or 8 like last year. I am not sure who is the truth. We will never know the truth. I personally don't really care if it tiger is  2 or 9 subspecies. 100 years ago, Bengal tigers in western Myanmar/India/Bangladesh was genetically closer to Indochinese tigers lived in eastern Myanmar and near Indochinese countries if they are comparing to Bengal tigers in western/southern India such as Ranthambore, Sariska, Bandipur, and Kabin. However, it is impossible to say that Malayan tigers living in jungle of Malayan peninsula are very closely related to Bengal tigers living in snowy Himalaya in Bhutan/India/Nepal before passing Indochinese tigers in Indochina. So my suggestion is that tiger only should be reintroduce or mix by geologically closer areas. That's why I view tiger subspecies as original 9. After knowing and working in conservation and zoo,  those law would never follow if it is single species. Single species believers just mix and release tigers in different areas without thinking properly.
Animals evolved unique morphology/adaptation/gene to survive in specific places they are living in. That's why so many speciation as a result of geographic isolation in reptiles, amphibians, fishes, insects, and smaller mammals. Tigers are different since they are large mammals, but human should not act as creditor. Humans want to ruin this natural order? I guess crazy things will happen in future one day.


A fact about IUCN...  I can't trust any of all of IUCN cat specalist people running by west sometimes. Why aren't they worry about their country animals in Europe/North America first instead of obsessing Asian tigers or any animals living in Asia/Africa. After I worked in conservation. I don't believe conservation at all.
All of nature/wildlife in europe/north america.. There are already completely destroyed. There are many problems in other continent. However, internet/media are always attacking Asia and people in Asia for every problems. They are not informing human population growth and not even really helping poor locals struggling to survive. All they do is just blaming people in Asia and Africa for every problems (steve winter and national geographic are examples that i don't trust anything comes from them). I am not even sure if they know what is serious reason of poaching and other poaching animals like pet trading and bushmeat trade. I guess this is due to idiotic journalists who are writing news are problems. However, I still view negative about conservation.
From what I hear is that Cambodia and Laos once hold the second highest tiger populations along with Nepal until the 1980s. I am not sure if those countries really had the highest Indochinese tiger population since Thailand and Myanmar seemed to be the highest. However, those countries were gift with nature. Indochinese leopards were once wide spread entire Indochina until the 2000s. Israel once hold the highest Arabian leopard population in the Levant until the 1980s. Now, all of those animals are almost gone. And primitive vietnameses are still going other South EAst Asia to poach tigers. My Bangladesh friend told me that his country had so many animals between 1991-1996 when he was teen years. Now, they are almost gone just like tigers in Asia. The Sumatran rhino was much better situation than the Javan rhino 20 years ago. Now, they are about to fall in the black hole due to primitive han chinese/vietnamese and deforestation/poaching problems. My ranger friend in Sumatra, he believes that the Sumatran tigers won't survive in future despite ngos in west are whining crazy about it. They aren't informing true problem like human population, neither solving poverty in Indonesia. Even in India, tigers will only survive in national parks/reserves. All of African megafuana like rhino, elephant, buffalo, giraffe, and other animals once lived throughout sub saharan Africa. They are almost gone compared to 1980s. Next 20 years will be completely different world again. I highly doubt tigers or any other animals will survive. Even Dr. Linda Kerley agreed with me when I spoke to her. My friends in India, even they agree with it. People mindset has to change in Asia first, but it won't happen for a long time since many Asian countries were poor (and still in many Asian countries) until the 1980s. Most of parent generations. So I guess people born before 1978, or before millennial generation in 1982-1996. I will say that 90% of these generation don't really like animals since they grew up in poor life. Sad reality of the Asia continent to save our beloved tiger and other magnificent animals in Asia.

There are problems like resource, trash, global warming, trashes in ocean, depleting animals in ocean just like bushmeat. Conservation is not doing their job properly to save animals. All they do is slowing extinction rate of animals or blaming people for every problems. Animals won't survive in future unless the world banning the religions, and strict the birth control (that's the one thing I like about the Chinese government). I am very dubious about the future.

No offence, but China, which is dominated by the Communist Party, and has a history of clamping down on religions, is part of the problem, not just for the tiger, but also for other animals such as the lion (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...59216.html), so why did you bring religion into this?

Take all Chinese populations of tigers, especially the South Chinese tiger, and compare them to the Bengal tiger in religion-dominated India, why are Chinese tigers endangered, compared to Indian tigers? That is partly because Mao Zedong, the founder of the Chinese system, instigated "anti-pest" campaigns to get rid of cattle-raiding "vermin" such as the tiger (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china...6920080710), and Chinese people, amongst others, are driving the business, even if illegal, of poaching tiger parts for use in traditional medicine: https://crownridgetigers.com/the-illegal...iger-parts

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, just recently, I read that China was considering lifting its ban on the use of tiger bone and rhino horn for medicinal purposes: https://crownridgetigers.com/the-illegal...iger-parts

What I'd like to say here is that generally, animals like the tiger have been suffering in the modern age, at least partly due to the Industrial Revolution, regardless of whether or not societies are religious. The IR has driven up the population of humans from under 1 billion in the 19th century (when the IR started) to almost 8 billion as of now (https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth), with the tiger-containing states of India and China standing out as the 2 most populous countries with populations of over 1.2 billion (to compare, the next 2 populous countries, the USA and the tiger-state of Indonesia, each have populations of approximately 323 million and 270 million respectively), and that in turn has led to more pollution and degradation of natural environments to make way for settlements, which has meant shrinking territories for animals such as the tiger, and consequently, mass extinctions or near-extinctions, though direct persecution by humans, whether or not religious, is also another factor. Religion-dominated Iran has lost animals like the Caspian tiger (https://books.google.com/books?id=esV0hc...&q&f=falsehttps://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCS...n_Iran.pdf), and under Mao Zedong, non-religious China has persecuted tigers like the South Chinese tiger to the brink of extinction (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china...6920080710), so it's not necessarily religion or the lack of it that's responsible for the endangering or extinction of animals.

What is therefore important is that governments and people should join hands to protect animals like the tiger, regardless of what religion or ideology they do or don't follow, and a good news is that generally, our population is slowing down (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/j...es-declinehttps://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/12/...owing-down), with Africa and Oceania being exceptions (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#region), and it is expected that our population will decline soon, which at least in theory should mean less pollution and degradation of natural environments in favor of urban settlements, or possibly even a reversal of urban settlements back to natural environments, like I read about the UK (https://www.jstor.org/stable/635380?seq=...b_contentshttps://journals.openedition.org/belgeo/12440), and ironically, India, due to the serious levels of pollution (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...65051.html)!
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-11-2019, 10:41 PM by peter )

(06-11-2019, 10:30 AM)Greatearth Wrote: paul cooper

If you study the world history truly by yourself. Problems such as poverty and civil war (that lead poverty and poaching in many countries in Africa) in many places in Asia to Africa were caused from colonial countries from the Western Europe (Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy) and Japan. They caused all of these disasters with colonizing other countries. Looked what happened in Angola, Mozambique, Congo, Sahel countries in Africa. Central Asia and western Asia are also good example of it where many snow leopards and persian leopards are living in war zone. Of course the Caspian tiger and Asiatic cheetah were different stories along with many other animals. However, India to Southeast Asia were high hunting ground by WEstern European and English speaking people until the mid-1900s. They were also the highest skin importer until the 1970s. They are doing something these days since they are living in wealthy these days. However, they aren't informing human population growth and trying to solve poverty in poor countries. So they are not doing anything to save animals. Besides, rangers that are tracking poachers and removing traps to protect tigers or any animals are Asian. One ranger in Cambodia was shot by poachers on February. Forest department in Indian Sundarban was attacked by poachers in April. Many rangers in Southeast Asia are also receiving pressure from corrupted governments. However, who speaks about their lives compared to when people praised mr. Alan R. when he died just because he was sick?
Now, who is heros to saving tigers? 

In west, mostly USA, they breed them tiger as "pet." Then abandoning them if they can't handle/afford it. Difference is that they don't eat those animals unlike china and vietnam. Actually, Central/South Americas and rich countries in Middle East are also the worst in this problem like smuggling and breeding those as pet. But conservation/animal charity ngos never speak about in middle east and central/south america. They are just attacking USA and Asia for every problem in this case. That makes another reason to not trusting ngo.

ALL

Paul Cooper responded to post 2,239 of Greatearth. Cooper's post was considered insultive and removed. After the response of Greatearth to Cooper's post (see above), Cooper retaliated. It resulted in a barrage of insultive posts. They were removed and Cooper was banned.

I don't mind a debate on a few hot issues every now and then, but remember the conditions are mutual respect (at all times), good arguments and sound reasoning. Judgement is out. Same for politics, race, religion and all the rest of it.

The last post of Bornean Tiger (referring to post 2,243) is an example of how to start a debate in the proper way.  

Whatever you do, keep in mind this thread is about (the plight of) wild tigers. They come first and last, no matter what.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-11-2019, 10:45 PM by Pckts )

I agree with most of what you've stated, overpopulation is absolutely the major cause of deforestation and it's only getting worse IMO.
We've gone too far now, outside of a mass extinction event the population is out of control and with people living longer and using more resources, the future looks bleak for future generations.
But overpopulation isn't a new topic, it's been in the headlines for decades but telling people to stop having children isn't a concept most of the world is ready to adopt. 



"The great American author Isaac Asimov talking about overpopulation in 1988, when world population was 'only' 5 billion."
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Greatearth Offline
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BorneanTiger 
I am not chinese. Also, China has 52 different ethnic people. What you are referring to is han chinese. Most other groups are living in poor life and they are not responsible of poaching problem.


Biologists/conservationists can't just go to other countries in Asia or Africa, and  study animals because they wanted to study about tigers or other animals..  They must approve by government in that country first. BAscially, knowing people working on animals in that countries help a lot. Nepal is easy from what I heard, but Southeast Asia is really really difficult and government is corrupt from what I heard. And Indonesia is one of the worst. I worked with professor and curiator in museum trying to find new species in the Sumatra island and countries in middle east. They told me many amazing stories there. They aren't even letting them to take specimen samples that collect easily if you aren't muslim. Some people are even staring and behaving rude at them if you aren't muslim. And many random stories that I am not even going to write here. However, this is more likely behavior of individuals. Not entire group.

Let's get into the problem. One professor I know, he is one of the most renowned herpetologist in the world. He discovered more than 100 new reptile/amphibian species in Central America, South America, and western Africa. He always informing students about human population growth caused so much problems. When he lived in the mid-1900s, everyone talked about rising human population will cause problem. Now, no one even speak about this problem. He saw wild jaguars several times when he lived in Guatemala during the 1960s, which is lucky since seeing wild jaguars in Central America is very difficult. He said seeing wild animals that are endangered today like harpy eagle and tapir were extremely easy in the mid-1900s. However, all of the places that he used to seeing these animals were changed to urban area and agriculture. Why? Because central america has one of the highest human population growth, especially guatemala has the highest population next to mexico.

I won't speak about religion deeply since you seemed to be muslim from the middle east.  I know birth control like abortion is against in islam because of it is against with god or something. That's the same in catholic as well.
Look what happened in Philiipine and Egypt. Philippine is deep catholic nation. So people were let's do this. That was main leading cause of cutting forest in their countries since human population is expanding and that country is also very poor. I won't even speak about egypt, because even government can't control about birth control after people start attacking politicans with throwing stone.
A real prboelm of countries like Iran, Israel (not muslim country), Egypt, ...etc are due to high human population growth.  Tbh, one reason of israel is keep smashing palestine is due to water problem they have. Water problem is one of the worse problem that iran has. Egypt wil have the same problem in future in desert.

I spoke with one person working on the Arabian leopard conservation in Israel. His or her answer was that they won't survive in Israel anymore. There is not enough habitat for good populations to survive. Why? Because of rising human population and having problems like water/agriculture in small arid desert area. Conflicts with other middle eastern countries is even extra.

I know many people in here in USA and Europe. I met many immigrants from middle east/north africa and hispanic. Having 3~6 kids are general for them even if they can't afford their living. Many of them are ignorant since their education level is poor and religion. If they want to keep believe their religions, then fine. But don't move to Europe, USA, or other parts of the world and cause problems like increasing human numbers since I hear a lot of stories about it from my European friends..

This will become the same problem in Africa future. Many Africans are not receiving education and many of them are very religious. Africa also has very high human population growth. Sahel countries like Chad are having big problem with this right now.
India and Bangladesh have big problem with rising human population growth since gap/education between high and poor classes are very high. 
Education is factor, but many of those countries are poor and not receiving education. From my life experience, less educated people/women generally having more kids than educated ones.

Human population growth means we need more space, agriculture, and resource. That evantually causing problems like prey depletion, deforestration, and tiger vs human. That's what happened to the Javan tigers in Java island and Malayan tigers in Singapore island. Probably the same for Bali tigers lived in small Bali island. Caspian tigers in Central Asia. It was probably the same for tigers lived in arid areas. For example, tigers used to live good population in west side of the Aral sea until the mid-1900s. Then they were gone after people poisoned boar for agriculture along with Soviet started using river water to raise cotton. Also, many of the places in Kazakhstan was desert and arid areas besides Siberia (northern place), mountain ranges, Aral sea, Amu Darya river, and Syr Darya river.

From my belief, the only reason Siberian tigers survived in the Russian Far East were due to this problem. The Korean Peninsula already had big problem with rising human population along with prey depletion and deforestation. Manchuria was even worse since chinese eat tigers even though it was better situation than Korea. Russian Far East had low human density, even these days. However, tigers were almost extinct in the early or mid-1900s. Also, they are still having problems with low prey density since people over hunted their preys. However, they are living in immense Asia continent. Their habitat or range map isn't restricted by islands. Tigers can have a lot of territories or they can go everywhere. Northeast Asia isn't even arid place. That's one reason of how Siberian tigers survived unlike Javan tigers and Bali tigers.

I tried to speak this problem with many respected tiger biologists. However, the only person who really interact about this problem seriously was Dr. Kerley. Government also don't like to hearing this idea. More human population means increasing economy. Decreasing population also leading problem like aging problems going on in japan, Korea, and Europe (I am sure Peter knows a lot of this problem since he lives in Netherland). Governments trying to find way to people to having kids. However, education is very high in Korea and Europe. Many people don't want to have kids. That is why china changed one kid policy law to have two children since they are starting to face this problem. However, education is high in china and many people don't want to have kids unlike their parents generations. That's what I heard from chinese students. I think this is why many biologists are not really speaking about this problem. Pissing off corrupted governments are not wise idea. They can just deport biologists/conservationists to never allow them to study animals in their countries in Asia or Africa. Rangers/wildlife photographers well speak about this problems since it won't effect any of them.
That is just the sad world we are living in.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-12-2019, 02:02 PM by BorneanTiger )

(06-12-2019, 12:57 AM)Greatearth Wrote: BorneanTiger 
I am not chinese. Also, China has 52 different ethnic people. What you are referring to is han chinese. Most other groups are living in poor life and they are not responsible of poaching problem.


Biologists/conservationists can't just go to other countries in Asia or Africa, and  study animals because they wanted to study about tigers or other animals..  They must approve by government in that country first. BAscially, knowing people working on animals in that countries help a lot. Nepal is easy from what I heard, but Southeast Asia is really really difficult and government is corrupt from what I heard. And Indonesia is one of the worst. I worked with professor and curiator in museum trying to find new species in the Sumatra island and countries in middle east. They told me many amazing stories there. They aren't even letting them to take specimen samples that collect easily if you aren't muslim. Some people are even staring and behaving rude at them if you aren't muslim. And many random stories that I am not even going to write here. However, this is more likely behavior of individuals. Not entire group.

Let's get into the problem. One professor I know, he is one of the most renowned herpetologist in the world. He discovered more than 100 new reptile/amphibian species in Central America, South America, and western Africa. He always informing students about human population growth caused so much problems. When he lived in the mid-1900s, everyone talked about rising human population will cause problem. Now, no one even speak about this problem. He saw wild jaguars several times when he lived in Guatemala during the 1960s, which is lucky since seeing wild jaguars in Central America is very difficult. He said seeing wild animals that are endangered today like harpy eagle and tapir were extremely easy in the mid-1900s. However, all of the places that he used to seeing these animals were changed to urban area and agriculture. Why? Because central america has one of the highest human population growth, especially guatemala has the highest population next to mexico.

I won't speak about religion deeply since you seemed to be muslim from the middle east.  I know birth control like abortion is against in islam because of it is against with god or something. That's the same in catholic as well.
Look what happened in Philiipine and Egypt. Philippine is deep catholic nation. So people were let's do this. That was main leading cause of cutting forest in their countries since human population is expanding and that country is also very poor. I won't even speak about egypt, because even government can't control about birth control after people start attacking politicans with throwing stone.
A real prboelm of countries like Iran, Israel (not muslim country), Egypt, ...etc are due to high human population growth.  Tbh, one reason of israel is keep smashing palestine is due to water problem they have. Water problem is one of the worse problem that iran has. Egypt wil have the same problem in future in desert.

I spoke with one person working on the Arabian leopard conservation in Israel. His or her answer was that they won't survive in Israel anymore. There is not enough habitat for good populations to survive. Why? Because of rising human population and having problems like water/agriculture in small arid desert area. Conflicts with other middle eastern countries is even extra.

I know many people in here in USA and Europe. I met many immigrants from middle east/north africa and hispanic. Having 3~6 kids are general for them even if they can't afford their living. Many of them are ignorant since their education level is poor and religion. If they want to keep believe their religions, then fine. But don't move to Europe, USA, or other parts of the world and cause problems like increasing human numbers since I hear a lot of stories about it from my European friends..

This will become the same problem in Africa future. Many Africans are not receiving education and many of them are very religious. Africa also has very high human population growth. Sahel countries like Chad are having big problem with this right now.
India and Bangladesh have big problem with rising human population growth since gap/education between high and poor classes are very high. 
Education is factor, but many of those countries are poor and not receiving education. From my life experience, less educated people/women generally having more kids than educated ones.

Human population growth means we need more space, agriculture, and resource. That evantually causing problems like prey depletion, deforestration, and tiger vs human. That's what happened to the Javan tigers in Java island and Malayan tigers in Singapore island. Probably the same for Bali tigers lived in small Bali island. Caspian tigers in Central Asia. It was probably the same for tigers lived in arid areas. For example, tigers used to live good population in west side of the Aral sea until the mid-1900s. Then they were gone after people poisoned boar for agriculture along with Soviet started using river water to raise cotton. Also, many of the places in Kazakhstan was desert and arid areas besides Siberia (northern place), mountain ranges, Aral sea, Amu Darya river, and Syr Darya river.

From my belief, the only reason Siberian tigers survived in the Russian Far East were due to this problem. The Korean Peninsula already had big problem with rising human population along with prey depletion and deforestation. Manchuria was even worse since chinese eat tigers even though it was better situation than Korea. Russian Far East had low human density, even these days. However, tigers were almost extinct in the early or mid-1900s. Also, they are still having problems with low prey density since people over hunted their preys. However, they are living in immense Asia continent. Their habitat or range map isn't restricted by islands. Tigers can have a lot of territories or they can go everywhere. Northeast Asia isn't even arid place. That's one reason of how Siberian tigers survived unlike Javan tigers and Bali tigers.

I tried to speak this problem with many respected tiger biologists. However, the only person who really interact about this problem seriously was Dr. Kerley. Government also don't like to hearing this idea. More human population means increasing economy. Decreasing population also leading problem like aging problems going on in japan, Korea, and Europe (I am sure Peter knows a lot of this problem since he lives in Netherland). Governments trying to find way to people to having kids. However, education is very high in Korea and Europe. Many people don't want to have kids. That is why china changed one kid policy law to have two children since they are starting to face this problem. However, education is high in china and many people don't want to have kids unlike their parents generations. That's what I heard from chinese students. I think this is why many biologists are not really speaking about this problem. Pissing off corrupted governments are not wise idea. They can just deport biologists/conservationists to never allow them to study animals in their countries in Asia or Africa. Rangers/wildlife photographers well speak about this problems since it won't effect any of them.
That is just the sad world we are living in.

Aside from the issue of abortion, some things that I can tell you is that in Islam:

* There are rules in the Quran as to when people can have or cannot have sex, for instance, sex is prohibited during times of fasting, and men are not allowed to take girlfriends (http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/...ture.shtml), so essentially, there is sex control in Islam

* That greed is immoral (https://www.theislamicquotes.com/islamic...-on-greed/)

* There are rules regarding animals, such as what animals may or may not be consumed, and how they can or cannot be treated

For reasons like these, Islam is a religion of moderation, so rather than facilitate a population explosion like what has been a characteristic of the Industrial Age, its rules, such as on sex, can actually be used to moderate people's desire for children, as in not be greedy for children, and encourage them to be more responsible towards the environment and other creatures like the tiger, in the same way that rich have some responsibility for the welfare of the poor.

Take for instance the case of wild boars in Pakistan, a potential prey of the tiger. Islam forbids the eating of pork, and because hunting boars was banned in Pakistan (where the Bengal tiger used to be present: https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/l...df#page=80), and so the number of wild boars multiplied there (https://www.dawn.com/news/1050711)!
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Finland Shadow Offline
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I think, that blaming some religion for something or praising on the other hand is meaningless. Religions have been always used as excuses to many things. Usually there is nothing too wrong in some religion itself. Things go wrong, when wrong people abuse and use religions to get personal power and influence. Those people then cherry pick things from any religion to justify different kind of inhuman actions and greed. Take any religion and leader of that religion and you find rich man, who has all what he ever desires more than enough for many lifetimes. 

Sounds disgusting? Well truth is seldom nice to see. It is ordinary people who have to start changes and forget what a few greedy men are preaching. I am sorry if this hurts some feelings, but I find it better to put all religions to same place as equals, not to start mock or praise just one.

I think, that when talking about problems of greed and overpopulation it is better to focus what every person can do him-/herself to start change to better. Do we need new mobile phone every time, when some new model is presented? Or could we use that older one, which is just fine longer? Could we use some birth control, no matter what some old man is preaching from ivory tower? Many small things can have real effect if just more and more people gets cured from disease called greed. For instance I change mobile phone when old one gets broken if there isn´t anything really special other reason to do so. And usually there isn´t :)
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Finland Shadow Offline
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But maybe better to leave religions out from discussions in these threads as is instructed in rules. This thread is about tigers, so more postings where actually tigers are mentioned and/seen. When talking about overpopulation, better to stay in some concrete problems and/or solutions, news about some projects etc. concerning it, how wild animals can be helped to survive. If someone is interested about Bible, Quran or Vedas, then there for sure are more than enough other forums to discuss about those. Religions and politics are for some people too sensitive issues, so better to leave aside before someone feels insulted.

So, focus to tigers please.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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I noticed this article about that extraordinary case, where Siberian tiger Tikhon seemed to seek help. Was it so, that @peter had more information if Tikhon is still alive or dead? No matter how it is, this article has many photos from treatment of Tikhon.

https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/tiger-king-tikhon-who-sought-human-help-wants-to-return-to-the-wild-after-having-dental-treatment/
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