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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-18-2019, 11:32 PM by BorneanTiger )

(05-17-2019, 10:43 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:11 PM)peter Wrote:    

c - Pavel Fomenko

Last year, most unfortunately, he was attacked by a tigress involved in dogs. When the tigress had been arrested, they found out she had cubs. One of them was captured a day later, but they needed 6 weeks to find the other (...). In the rehabilitation center, the tigress and her cubs were initially separated. The tigress, however, could see and hear them. When rangers and researchers approached the cubs, they showed signs of distress. The tigress snapped. She crashed through a fence (...) and attacked the first man she saw. 

Of all men, it had to be the one who devoted his life to tigers. Life is very complex. Fomenko was quite badly injured, but escaped after she, again, was distracted by her cubs. There was no intention to kill, but I'm afraid Pavel, who needed surgery, 

Interview with Pavelo Fomenko after he was attacked by the tigress. As we can see his face is badly mauled. Remarkable man. Despite his injuries in the video he makes a passionate speech for the protection of Amur tiger. He says that as icon specie, top of the food chain and harismatic animal the tiger is like un umbrella which  protect all other species, without tiger the governments will not give money for the protection of the forests and other wild animals. He says that without tigers Ussuri forest would be much more boring place, etc.






And this is a film about Fomenko before he was injured, as we can see on his face. One year before the accident like predicting his fate he says: "Life in the Ussuri forest is dangerous, you can get lost, you can get frozen, you can be attacked by big predator, its easy to die down there":








*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Speaking of the Siberian tiger's close relative, the Caspian tiger, like I mentioned here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...9#pid81909
[quote pid='81909' dateline='1558198804']
... it is likely that the tiger didn't just inhabit or occur in Transcaucasia or South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), but also in Ciscaucasia: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


The tiger in this famous image from Berlin Zoo in 1999 was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, they mention an 11th-century Eastern European account from the book Poucheniya Detyam by Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Prince of Kievan Rus', a state that is regarded as a cultural ancestor of the Ukraine, Belurus and Russia (not the 'Rus' in the latter 2 names). Map of Kievan Rus': https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/02/...h-century/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


In this account, Monomakh, while he ruled Turov (in modern-day Belarus), and Chernigrov (in modern-day Ukraine), he was on a hunt when he was attacked by a lyuti zver (лютый зверь, Old Russian for "fierce animal"). The zver sprang towards his thighs, and hurt him and his horse. Traditionally, the zver was considered to be a wolf or lynx, but according to Heptner and Sludskii, neither would spring at a rider or injure a horse, so it was more likely to be a big cat, with some people thinking that it could have been a leopard, or that it was more likely to be a tiger than a lion. The occurrence of the lion at the southern Russian Steppes, or the area of the mouth of the Don River, is disputed by Heptner and Sludskiy, whereas according to them, tigers likely occurred in the Russian Steppes or at the estuary of the Don River: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...lyuti+zver 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


The manner of this attack reminds me of this famous video from India: 




Also, this statue of a tiger attacking a man is in the area of Mount Akhun near Sochi, which as I mentioned above is in North Caucasus: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author

[/quote]
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Finland Shadow Online
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(05-18-2019, 10:50 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 10:43 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:11 PM)peter Wrote:    

c - Pavel Fomenko

Last year, most unfortunately, he was attacked by a tigress involved in dogs. When the tigress had been arrested, they found out she had cubs. One of them was captured a day later, but they needed 6 weeks to find the other (...). In the rehabilitation center, the tigress and her cubs were initially separated. The tigress, however, could see and hear them. When rangers and researchers approached the cubs, they showed signs of distress. The tigress snapped. She crashed through a fence (...) and attacked the first man she saw. 

Of all men, it had to be the one who devoted his life to tigers. Life is very complex. Fomenko was quite badly injured, but escaped after she, again, was distracted by her cubs. There was no intention to kill, but I'm afraid Pavel, who needed surgery, 

Interview with Pavelo Fomenko after he was attacked by the tigress. As we can see his face is badly mauled. Remarkable man. Despite his injuries in the video he makes a passionate speech for the protection of Amur tiger. He says that as icon specie, top of the food chain and harismatic animal the tiger is like un umbrella which  protect all other species, without tiger the governments will not give money for the protection of the forests and other wild animals. He says that without tigers Ussuri forest would be much more boring place, etc.






And this is a film about Fomenko before he was injured, as we can see on his face. One year before the accident like predicting his fate he says: "Life in the Ussuri forest is dangerous, you can get lost, you can get frozen, you can be attacked by big predator, its easy to die down there":








*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Speaking of the Siberian tiger's close relative, the Caspian tiger, like I mentioned here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...9#pid81909
[quote pid='81909' dateline='1558198804']
... it is likely that the tiger didn't just inhabit or occur in Transcaucasia or South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), but also in Ciscaucasia: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


The tiger in this famous image from Berlin Zoo in 1999 was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, they mention an 11th-century Eastern European account from the book Poucheniya Detyam by Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Prince of Kievan Rus', a state that is regarded as a cultural ancestor of the Ukraine, Belurus and Russia (not the 'Rus' in the latter 2 names). Map of Kievan Rus': https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/02/...h-century/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


In this account, Monomakh, while he ruled Turov (in modern-day Belarus), and Chernigrov (in modern-day Ukraine), he was on a hunt when he was attacked by a lyuti zver (лютый зверь, Old Russian for "fierce animal"). The zver sprang towards his thighs, and hurt him and his horse. Traditionally, the zver was considered to be a wolf or lynx, but according to Heptner and Sludskii, neither would spring at a rider or injure a horse, so it was more likely to be a big cat, with some people thinking that it could have been a leopard, or that it was more likely to be a tiger than a lion. The occurrence of the lion at the southern Russian Steppes, or the area of the mouth of the Don River, is disputed by Heptner and Sludskiy, whereas according to them, tigers likely occurred in the Russian Steppes or at the estuary of the Don River: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...lyuti+zver 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


The manner of this attack reminds me of this famous video from India: 




Also, this statue of a tiger attacking a man is in the area of Mount Akhun near Sochi, which as I mentioned above is in North Caucasus: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author

[/quote]
That animal attacking horse and rider has been most probably a brown bear if clearly outside of known range of tigers. Bears have done that kind of attacks and are able to run about same speed as horses for some time.
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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 12:44 AM by Shadow )

(05-18-2019, 10:50 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 10:43 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:11 PM)peter Wrote:    

c - Pavel Fomenko

Last year, most unfortunately, he was attacked by a tigress involved in dogs. When the tigress had been arrested, they found out she had cubs. One of them was captured a day later, but they needed 6 weeks to find the other (...). In the rehabilitation center, the tigress and her cubs were initially separated. The tigress, however, could see and hear them. When rangers and researchers approached the cubs, they showed signs of distress. The tigress snapped. She crashed through a fence (...) and attacked the first man she saw. 

Of all men, it had to be the one who devoted his life to tigers. Life is very complex. Fomenko was quite badly injured, but escaped after she, again, was distracted by her cubs. There was no intention to kill, but I'm afraid Pavel, who needed surgery, 

Interview with Pavelo Fomenko after he was attacked by the tigress. As we can see his face is badly mauled. Remarkable man. Despite his injuries in the video he makes a passionate speech for the protection of Amur tiger. He says that as icon specie, top of the food chain and harismatic animal the tiger is like un umbrella which  protect all other species, without tiger the governments will not give money for the protection of the forests and other wild animals. He says that without tigers Ussuri forest would be much more boring place, etc.






And this is a film about Fomenko before he was injured, as we can see on his face. One year before the accident like predicting his fate he says: "Life in the Ussuri forest is dangerous, you can get lost, you can get frozen, you can be attacked by big predator, its easy to die down there":








*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Speaking of the Siberian tiger's close relative, the Caspian tiger, like I mentioned here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...9#pid81909
[quote pid='81909' dateline='1558198804']
... it is likely that the tiger didn't just inhabit or occur in Transcaucasia or South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), but also in Ciscaucasia: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


The tiger in this famous image from Berlin Zoo in 1999 was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, they mention an 11th-century Eastern European account from the book Poucheniya Detyam by Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Prince of Kievan Rus', a state that is regarded as a cultural ancestor of the Ukraine, Belurus and Russia (not the 'Rus' in the latter 2 names). Map of Kievan Rus': https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/02/...h-century/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


In this account, Monomakh, while he ruled Turov (in modern-day Belarus), and Chernigrov (in modern-day Ukraine), he was on a hunt when he was attacked by a lyuti zver (лютый зверь, Old Russian for "fierce animal"). The zver sprang towards his thighs, and hurt him and his horse. Traditionally, the zver was considered to be a wolf or lynx, but according to Heptner and Sludskii, neither would spring at a rider or injure a horse, so it was more likely to be a big cat, with some people thinking that it could have been a leopard, or that it was more likely to be a tiger than a lion. The occurrence of the lion at the southern Russian Steppes, or the area of the mouth of the Don River, is disputed by Heptner and Sludskiy, whereas according to them, tigers likely occurred in the Russian Steppes or at the estuary of the Don River: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...lyuti+zver 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


The manner of this attack reminds me of this famous video from India: 




Also, this statue of a tiger attacking a man is in the area of Mount Akhun near Sochi, which as I mentioned above is in North Caucasus: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author

[/quote]

Just to give an example, here is one case from Finland and year 2014. A woman was riding in the woods, she noticed a bear from some distance and bear stood up to hind legs. She continued riding slowly forward and away from bear. After a moment she looked behind and saw, that bear was running full speed towards horse and her, she made horse to run full gallop and flee, she saw then, that bear was so close, that bear´s muzzle was right beside hind legs of horse. She managed to make horse run even a bit faster at that point while she was panicking. She tells, that bear run very fast, head down and ears back. She tells, that bear chased her and horse about distance of one kilometer before giving up.

Again link is in Finnish, but if someone checks, Karhu=Bear.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2014102918790399

When people see very big bears, they look like clumsy and slow, when they do whatever they want and have nothing to worry about. Even those big ones can surprise many if they get enraged, but smaller and medium-sized bears can run up to about 60 km/h and that is about same speed, which is often mentioned with tigers for instance. There are observations of bears, which have jumped on back of adult moose and clawing sides while "riding" with moose.
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Spain josecastello Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 08:19 AM by sanjay Edit Reason: corrected the formating )

(03-15-2017, 03:24 PM)Betty Wrote: Chengdu Zoo 
South China tiger.


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hi, Betty,I may be willing to use some of your photos of the South China Tiger for my next book. My e-mail is josecastello@gmail.com. Thank you.Best,Jose R Castello
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India sanjay Offline
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Hello @josecastello
Welcome to the forum, I hope @Betty will not mind it. Please do share your book once you publish it.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 01:00 PM by BorneanTiger )

(05-19-2019, 12:22 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(05-18-2019, 10:50 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 10:43 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:11 PM)peter Wrote:    

c - Pavel Fomenko

Last year, most unfortunately, he was attacked by a tigress involved in dogs. When the tigress had been arrested, they found out she had cubs. One of them was captured a day later, but they needed 6 weeks to find the other (...). In the rehabilitation center, the tigress and her cubs were initially separated. The tigress, however, could see and hear them. When rangers and researchers approached the cubs, they showed signs of distress. The tigress snapped. She crashed through a fence (...) and attacked the first man she saw. 

Of all men, it had to be the one who devoted his life to tigers. Life is very complex. Fomenko was quite badly injured, but escaped after she, again, was distracted by her cubs. There was no intention to kill, but I'm afraid Pavel, who needed surgery, 

Interview with Pavelo Fomenko after he was attacked by the tigress. As we can see his face is badly mauled. Remarkable man. Despite his injuries in the video he makes a passionate speech for the protection of Amur tiger. He says that as icon specie, top of the food chain and harismatic animal the tiger is like un umbrella which  protect all other species, without tiger the governments will not give money for the protection of the forests and other wild animals. He says that without tigers Ussuri forest would be much more boring place, etc.






And this is a film about Fomenko before he was injured, as we can see on his face. One year before the accident like predicting his fate he says: "Life in the Ussuri forest is dangerous, you can get lost, you can get frozen, you can be attacked by big predator, its easy to die down there":








*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Speaking of the Siberian tiger's close relative, the Caspian tiger, like I mentioned here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...9#pid81909
[quote pid='81909' dateline='1558198804']
... it is likely that the tiger didn't just inhabit or occur in Transcaucasia or South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), but also in Ciscaucasia: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


The tiger in this famous image from Berlin Zoo in 1999 was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, they mention an 11th-century Eastern European account from the book Poucheniya Detyam by Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Prince of Kievan Rus', a state that is regarded as a cultural ancestor of the Ukraine, Belurus and Russia (not the 'Rus' in the latter 2 names). Map of Kievan Rus': https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/02/...h-century/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


In this account, Monomakh, while he ruled Turov (in modern-day Belarus), and Chernigrov (in modern-day Ukraine), he was on a hunt when he was attacked by a lyuti zver (лютый зверь, Old Russian for "fierce animal"). The zver sprang towards his thighs, and hurt him and his horse. Traditionally, the zver was considered to be a wolf or lynx, but according to Heptner and Sludskii, neither would spring at a rider or injure a horse, so it was more likely to be a big cat, with some people thinking that it could have been a leopard, or that it was more likely to be a tiger than a lion. The occurrence of the lion at the southern Russian Steppes, or the area of the mouth of the Don River, is disputed by Heptner and Sludskiy, whereas according to them, tigers likely occurred in the Russian Steppes or at the estuary of the Don River: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...lyuti+zver 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


The manner of this attack reminds me of this famous video from India: 




Also, this statue of a tiger attacking a man is in the area of Mount Akhun near Sochi, which as I mentioned above is in North Caucasus: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author

Just to give an example, here is one case from Finland and year 2014. A woman was riding in the woods, she noticed a bear from some distance and bear stood up to hind legs. She continued riding slowly forward and away from bear. After a moment she looked behind and saw, that bear was running full speed towards horse and her, she made horse to run full gallop and flee, she saw then, that bear was so close, that bear´s muzzle was right beside hind legs of horse. She managed to make horse run even a bit faster at that point while she was panicking. She tells, that bear run very fast, head down and ears back. She tells, that bear chased her and horse about distance of one kilometer before giving up.

Again link is in Finnish, but if someone checks, Karhu=Bear.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2014102918790399

When people see very big bears, they look like clumsy and slow, when they do whatever they want and have nothing to worry about. Even those big ones can surprise many if they get enraged, but smaller and medium-sized bears can run up to about 60 km/h and that is about same speed, which is often mentioned with tigers for instance. There are observations of bears, which have jumped on back of adult moose and clawing sides while "riding" with moose.
[/quote]

...

(For some reason, your post is shown as a quote here)

I know that bears can run, but can they jump at people riding animals, in the same way that big cats like tigers can?

Bear play-jumping in the water at Nashville Zoo: 




Big cats by contrast are good jumpers, able to use their skills to aim for specific parts, and the nature of that attack, in which the zver sprang at the Prince's thighs while he rode a horse, has to mean a big cat jumping.

For instance, the tiger aimed for the mahoot while jumping, and managed to land a paw on the elephant's head: 




Other cases of big cats jumping: 

Lions aiming specifically for the backs of large prey while hunting: 









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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 01:23 PM by Shadow )

(05-19-2019, 11:28 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(05-19-2019, 12:22 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(05-18-2019, 10:50 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 10:43 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:11 PM)peter Wrote:    

c - Pavel Fomenko

Last year, most unfortunately, he was attacked by a tigress involved in dogs. When the tigress had been arrested, they found out she had cubs. One of them was captured a day later, but they needed 6 weeks to find the other (...). In the rehabilitation center, the tigress and her cubs were initially separated. The tigress, however, could see and hear them. When rangers and researchers approached the cubs, they showed signs of distress. The tigress snapped. She crashed through a fence (...) and attacked the first man she saw. 

Of all men, it had to be the one who devoted his life to tigers. Life is very complex. Fomenko was quite badly injured, but escaped after she, again, was distracted by her cubs. There was no intention to kill, but I'm afraid Pavel, who needed surgery, 

Interview with Pavelo Fomenko after he was attacked by the tigress. As we can see his face is badly mauled. Remarkable man. Despite his injuries in the video he makes a passionate speech for the protection of Amur tiger. He says that as icon specie, top of the food chain and harismatic animal the tiger is like un umbrella which  protect all other species, without tiger the governments will not give money for the protection of the forests and other wild animals. He says that without tigers Ussuri forest would be much more boring place, etc.






And this is a film about Fomenko before he was injured, as we can see on his face. One year before the accident like predicting his fate he says: "Life in the Ussuri forest is dangerous, you can get lost, you can get frozen, you can be attacked by big predator, its easy to die down there":








*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Speaking of the Siberian tiger's close relative, the Caspian tiger, like I mentioned here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...9#pid81909
[quote pid='81909' dateline='1558198804']
... it is likely that the tiger didn't just inhabit or occur in Transcaucasia or South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), but also in Ciscaucasia: 

*This image is copyright of its original author


The tiger in this famous image from Berlin Zoo in 1999 was from the Caucasus: https://web.archive.org/web/200708240914...ger-13.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also, they mention an 11th-century Eastern European account from the book Poucheniya Detyam by Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Prince of Kievan Rus', a state that is regarded as a cultural ancestor of the Ukraine, Belurus and Russia (not the 'Rus' in the latter 2 names). Map of Kievan Rus': https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2010/02/...h-century/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


In this account, Monomakh, while he ruled Turov (in modern-day Belarus), and Chernigrov (in modern-day Ukraine), he was on a hunt when he was attacked by a lyuti zver (лютый зверь, Old Russian for "fierce animal"). The zver sprang towards his thighs, and hurt him and his horse. Traditionally, the zver was considered to be a wolf or lynx, but according to Heptner and Sludskii, neither would spring at a rider or injure a horse, so it was more likely to be a big cat, with some people thinking that it could have been a leopard, or that it was more likely to be a tiger than a lion. The occurrence of the lion at the southern Russian Steppes, or the area of the mouth of the Don River, is disputed by Heptner and Sludskiy, whereas according to them, tigers likely occurred in the Russian Steppes or at the estuary of the Don River: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...lyuti+zver 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


The manner of this attack reminds me of this famous video from India: 




Also, this statue of a tiger attacking a man is in the area of Mount Akhun near Sochi, which as I mentioned above is in North Caucasus: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...untain.JPG

*This image is copyright of its original author

Just to give an example, here is one case from Finland and year 2014. A woman was riding in the woods, she noticed a bear from some distance and bear stood up to hind legs. She continued riding slowly forward and away from bear. After a moment she looked behind and saw, that bear was running full speed towards horse and her, she made horse to run full gallop and flee, she saw then, that bear was so close, that bear´s muzzle was right beside hind legs of horse. She managed to make horse run even a bit faster at that point while she was panicking. She tells, that bear run very fast, head down and ears back. She tells, that bear chased her and horse about distance of one kilometer before giving up.

Again link is in Finnish, but if someone checks, Karhu=Bear.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2014102918790399

When people see very big bears, they look like clumsy and slow, when they do whatever they want and have nothing to worry about. Even those big ones can surprise many if they get enraged, but smaller and medium-sized bears can run up to about 60 km/h and that is about same speed, which is often mentioned with tigers for instance. There are observations of bears, which have jumped on back of adult moose and clawing sides while "riding" with moose.

...

(For some reason, your post is shown as a quote here)

I know that bears can run, but can they jump at people riding animals, in the same way that big cats like tigers can?

Bear play-jumping in the water at Nashville Zoo: 



[/quote]

I think, that it depends about situation a bit too. If bear is able to attack so, that horse doesn´t have time to run it can of course easily maul both, horse and rider even without jumping, many inland brown bears are about 2,5 meter tall when standing on hind legs. Then again as I said, bears have been seen on backs of adult moose, while moose runs, so in some way they have been getting there. 

That case which you shared just had so little information, there wasn´t mentioned too good, that where and when. If it happened in area of current Belarus bear seems to be only possibility. Then again if more south and talking about area of Ukraine, who knows if some lone tiger has been roaming in unusual areas. But if that little information about what happened is all what there is about that incident, then it is impossible to make too big conclusions. Especially when there is living a known big predator capable to do that kind of attack. Actually I was surprised to read, that these people didn´t even mention bear in text and still were talking about lynx and wolf. But maybe they also saw bear as only big and clumsy at that time, who knows. Sometimes even some zoologists give statements which can be seen to be wrong later.

Anyway all of those areas mentioned were inside known historical range of bears. In that way it is more probable that incident mentioned has been about a bear and then a slight chance that a tiger. But when a bear for some reason makes a real attack, term "sprang" is very good to describe it and it can easily claw hip of the rider and the horse same time.

This isn´t best footage, but you can see here how bear attacks a cow. If you look that in 0,25 speed, you can see one leap right in the beginning of that chase and bear does that again later and in the end it makes that cow to fall.




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Spain josecastello Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 01:16 PM by Rishi )

(05-19-2019, 08:20 AM)sanjay Wrote: Hello @josecastello
Welcome to the forum, I hope @Betty will not mind it. Please do share your book once you publish it.
Thank you. I hope to be able to contact @Betty.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-30-2019, 02:13 PM by BorneanTiger )

Within the Bangladeshi part of the Sundarbans, the number of Bengal tigers rose to 114 from 106, from 2015 to 2018, according to a census: https://www.thedailystar.net/frontpage/b...rs-1746550

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-02-2019, 10:08 PM by Kingtheropod )

Greetings everyone, I have finally completed my list of all scientific and historical records for wild Bengal tigers.

The following list includes weights from various sources collected across the internet. This list includes random weights from books, and averages from historical hunters and scientists collected in the field.

The following is the most recent table made by Guategoijra regarding the weights of Bengal tigers from scientific records, and other subspecies. 

 
*This image is copyright of its original author


The information from me is very similar to his table (see post #279). I have posted this on wildfact (below). The average that I came to was 219 kg (n=29) which is almost identical to his (221 kg, n=21). 

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...rs?page=19

Regarding historical records, these are all the reliable historical records I have come to find from random sources. *Note all cats above 300 kg were excluded, and cats below 150 kg also were excluded and automatically considered subadults unless otherwise stated.

Tiger No. Total length Weight in kg (and lb). Reference


1 , 292 202.7 (447) ,Baker, 1891 (adjusted)


2 , – 236.2 (520.8) ,Brown, 1893


3 , - 203 (448) ,Lockyer, 1876


4, – 158.5 (349.5) ,Sanderson, 1879


5, – 161 (355) ,Inverarity, 1888


6, 283 172.4 (380) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


7, 267 164 (362) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


8, – 267.6 (590) ,Singh, 1959


9 , 323 222.7 (491) ,Ward, 1907


10 , 306 252.7 (557) ,Ward, 1921


11 , – 275.8 (608) ,Pocock, 1939


12, – 272 (600) ,Singh, 1970


13, 297 188.7 (416) ,Burton, 1915


14, 292 256.3 (565) ,Berg, 1943


15 , 295 227 (500) ,*Burton, 1936


16, – 156 (344) ,Marshall, 1937


17, – 149.7 (330) ,Marshall, 1937


18, 285 213.2 (470) ,Stewart, 1927

19, - 227 (500) , *Alabama Conservation, 1944

20, - 292 (645) , Ward 1922

21, - 217 (478) , Ford News 1923

22, - 225 (496) , Quarterly 1956

23, - 224 (494) , Quarterly 1956

24, - 186.4 (411) , Quarterly 1956

25, - 159 (350) , Wroughton JBNHS (Vol. 22, pp. 29-66) 

26, - 205 (452) , Buckland 1885

27, - 247.2 (545) , Ward JBNHS (Vol. 31, pp. 1-2)

28, - 217.7 (480) , Morris 1923

29, 292 181 (400) , Baker 1891

Average 212.5 kg (468.5 lb), n=29

This is Guategojiras table on the records from Hewett (1938), the average he came to was 202 kg (n=19). However, the average would be 209 kg if 17,18,and 19 were excluded due to them possibly being young.

*This image is copyright of its original author


This is Guategojiras table on the records from Cooch behar (1908). The average for 44 males was 205 kg, which is very similar to Hewett's table above...


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


This is from Brander average 190.5 kg (n=42)


*This image is copyright of its original author


This table is from Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society, Volume 10

From Hunter 1896. The average is 216 kg (n=6)



*This image is copyright of its original author


There is of course more I can post, but the remaining are already mentioned in Guategoijras old table which I will post below...

https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...from_embed

Using the data from scientific record posted by Guategojira from the following tables and historical records I posted above all combined together is...

204.5 kg (n=170), using Guategoijras data only.

However, using the extra data I posted from newsreports. The average from my scientific records data plus historical records data was 205 kg (n=178) for Indian tigers.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-03-2019, 06:21 PM by peter )

Good effort, Pod. Appreciated. I decided to add a few remarks.

A - Male tigers in India today and a century ago

Reliable information says male Indian tigers, at the level of averages, ranged between 182-209 kg. (402-461 lbs.) in the period 1860-1940. Today, male tigers average 210-220 kg. (463-486 lbs.). This average is without the Sunderbans. Without the correction factor used by biologists today, the average of adult male tigers in most of mainland India would be over 500 pounds.

The heaviest individuals, 'corrected' for food intake, seem to range between 250-260 kg. (552-575 lbs.), but two tigers weighed in Nepal in the seventies and eighties of the last century bottomed a 600-pound scale (272,16 kg.) and another male in northern India weighed a few years ago is said to be over 800 lbs. (362,88 kg.).  

There are quite many old records of tigers close to or exceeding 600 pounds. Some individuals shot by experienced hunters and Forest Officers were estimated at 700 lbs.. The heaviest actually weighed in Nepal was 705 pounds. This is without the enormous tiger shot by Hasinger in 1967 and a few very large individuals shot before 1860. Although old information isn't taken very serious, those who hunted tigers in the period 1820-1870 agree tigers shot before, say, 1850-1860 were larger than those shot later. One hunter who actually saw a tiger of 11 feet in northern India said he was dwarfed by an exceptional male shot in the early days.

Most hunters who wrote books in the 20th century didn't believe one word of stories about exceptional tigers. Like most biologists today, they said exceptional tigers were a result of skins, special tapes and Maharajahs interested in extra-large tigers. That, however, could have been a result of disappointment: nearly all giants were shot by early settlers, not those operating in the department of high status. Most high-ranking officers hunting tigers never saw even a 10-feet tiger. The reason was habitat destruction and rapidly declining numbers. Well before 1900, quite many already warned of the consequences. 

But destruction wouldn't affect the size of tigers in a relatively short space of time, would it? Yes it would. At least, that's what the information I have on Nepal and northern India suggests. In a few decades only, male tigers in northern India lost about 4 inches in total length. As total length and weight are strongly related in Indian tigers, weight would have been affected as well.

An indirect example is provided by tigers in India and Nepal today in that they are heavier than a century ago. This in spite of low numbers. The most likely reasons are better conditions (protected and well-stocked reserves), more competition and less stress caused by humans. Wild Amur tigers also seem a bit bigger than two decades ago. The reason seems to be more protection and less stress.     

B - The correction factor used by biologists today

It's true that 7 tigers shot by the Maharajah of Cooch Behar and his guests in the period 1871-1907 were gorged, but it's also true the sample had a few young adults and a few tigers considered to be quite 'light' for their size. Hewett's sample also had a few young adults and underweight tigers. Large samples, however, most probably reflect the actual natural conditions. All large samples strongly suggest that individual variation in wild Indian tigers was pronounced a century ago.  

There are more reasons to question the correction factor used today.

b1 - If field weights are to be corrected, biologists need to have a good idea about 'normal' and 'abnormal'. They also need to have an undisputed tool to correct field weights. Based on what I read, my guess is it wouldn't be easy to get to adequate definitions on 'normal' and 'abnormal'. As to the tool. It's known (referring to the book of the Maharajah of Cooch Behar) that a gorged male tiger of average length was 55-60 pounds heavier than a non-gorged male of similar length shot in northeastern India a century ago, but the question is what 'gorged' means. The next question is to what extent a weight should be corrected. A tricky affair at best, I think.     

b2 - If you correct field weights of gorged tigers, you also need to correct field weights of tigers considered as 'underweight'. The question is what method should be used to get to a 'normal' weight. In order to get to an answer, detailed information on individual tigers is needed. This means biologists need to dart, measure and weigh a lot of wild tigers for a considerable period of time in different regions. As far as I know, this has never been done. Not on a large scale, I mean.

There is, however, some information that could be used. The Sauraha tiger (Royal Chitwan) gained 8 cm. and at least 100 pounds as an adult. We also know tiger 'Dale', known for his peculiar interest in bears, was 445 pounds when he was first darted. Some time later, after losing 3 of his 4 canines, he was 375. This, mind you, was on a full stomach. Curtains, one would think. But when he was weighed a third time, he was about as heavy as the first time. This one 1 canine only. 

Based on these 2 individuals, on could conclude the range in weight in more or less (the Amur tiger no doubt was affected by an injury when he had lost 70 pounds, but he apparently recovered) healthy adult male tigers is 70-100 pounds. In the (injured) Amur tiger, the range was 15-16%. In the (uninjured) Nepal tiger, the range was at least 20%.    
The male tigers shot in Cooch behar, the Duars and Assam a century ago averaged 461 pounds and about 9.8 'over curves'. Gorged tigers were about 60 pounds heavier than non-gorged male tigers of similar length. A gorged male tiger, therefore, was about 13% heavier than a non-gorged male tiger. Quite a difference, but the range in weight in the 2 male tigers mentioned above was 15-20%. My guess is it was closer to 20%, because the second time the Amur tiger was weighed, he only was 375 on a full stomach. On an empty stomach, he could have been 315 pounds only. This means he lost about 130 pounds (about 30%) of his 'normal' weight in the period he was injured.   

Considering the significant weight range in these 2 tigers, the question is what a full stomach really means. Is it justified to correct the weight of a gorged tiger? Is it justified to correct the weight of every wild male tiger when you know wild male tigers, both injured and uninjured, are subject to quite violent changes in weight over time?     
        
b3 - Even if biologists succeed to agree on definitions and tools, corrected weights will never compare to field weights. The reason is they are estimates, whereas field weights are accurate. No scientist should be willing to exchange accuracy for something else when there's no good reason.  

I agree one should add a bit of information on individuals when the sample is smallish and tigers have only been weighed once, but one has to remember that correction factors are of a subjective nature. Furthermore, they do not reflect the conditions faced by wild tigers. Conditions that can result in significant changes in weight over time.    

What I'm saying is corrections can result in inaccurate information, if not outright misinformation. If you add dismissals of old records, chances are biologists could underestimate the size of wild tigers. In India, it resulted in 500-pound scales when biologists decided to weigh wild tigers. Not quite adequate, they concluded. Same for the 600-pound scales used later. In India and Nepal, large male tigers can exceed that mark. 

The obvious conclusion is that not all exceptional individuals shot in the past were a result of 'special tapes', 'skins', hunters unable to count to three and Maharajahs interested in pleasing their guests no matter what. Tigers are large big cats showing a lot of individual and regional variation. They also respond to conditions. One or two centuries ago, when wild country dominated most of India and tigers often had the opportunity to reach their potential, exceptional individuals really exceeded 11 feet 'over curves'. They also could have been bulkier. Captive tigers say these old records can't be dismissed out of hand. At least, not all. In tigers, conditions really seem to affect size.  

Quite many consider captive tigers as mirrors of wild tigers. Captive Indian tigers are smaller than their wild relatives, but in Amur tigers it's the other way round. Reasons? Read post 281 in the thread 'Captive lion and tiger weights'.      

C - New series on Amur tigers in the Premium Section

In some time, I'll start a series on the size of Amur tigers in the new premium section. Not what we had in mind when we started five years ago, but we have no other option if we want to get rid of monopolists in the department of money. Yes, I was referring to Google. And we want to, as we're still unable to subscribe to magazins and pay our mods after exceeding 10 million views (...). It's quite incredible. One could conclude that tech monopolists are no different from other monopolists and be close. In the end, it isn't about 'more communication' and things like that, but profit. The more, the better. 

If you decide to join the Premium Section, remember the revenues will not be be used to develop the skills of the owners in the department of spending it in luxury places designed to attract monopolists. The aim is to develop the forum. 

It is needed. Those who know agree wild animals face extinction in unprecedented numbers. The process of extinction is accelerating. No question. We need to do something and we need to do it fast. If you post, remember that one in particular. It isn't about you being right or wrong: it is about informing people about the plight of those without a voice.
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-01-2019, 07:44 AM by Rishi )

Age needs to be taken in as a factor.. Most of the tigers being weighed today (or atleast the ones whose weight makes it to the headlines) are extremely young, barely adults.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-01-2019, 10:58 PM by peter )

(06-01-2019, 07:43 AM)Rishi Wrote: Age needs to be taken in as a factor.. Most of the tigers being weighed today (or atleast the ones whose weight makes it to the headlines) are extremely young, barely adults.

True.

Other factors also contributed to a distorted picture. What to think about the effect of the opinion of well-known biologists and zoologists involved in downgrading reliable records of their peers (referring to, for example, the records of the Sunquists)? And those operating in the department of 'food intake' and corrections?

But all of that will be addressed in the new series starting in some time in the Premium Section.

All of those interested can contribute by finding reliable information on extra-large wild big cats (lions and tigers). I'm sure there's much more than many think.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(05-31-2019, 11:31 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: Greetings everyone, I have finally completed my list of all scientific and historical records for wild Bengal tigers.

The following list includes weights from various sources collected across the internet. This list includes random weights from books, and averages from historical hunters and scientists collected in the field.

The following is the most recent table made by Guategoijra regarding the weights of Bengal tigers from scientific records, and other subspecies. 

 
*This image is copyright of its original author


The information from me is very similar to his table (see post #279). I have posted this on wildfact (below). The average that I came to was 219 kg (n=29) which is almost identical to his (221 kg, n=21). 

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...rs?page=19

Regarding historical records, these are all the reliable historical records I have come to find from random sources. *Note all cats above 300 kg were excluded, and cats below 150 kg also were excluded and automatically considered subadults unless otherwise stated.

Tiger No. Total length Weight in kg (and lb). Reference


1 , 292 198.2 (447) ,Baker, 1891 (adjusted)


2 , – 236.2 (520.8) ,Brown, 1893


3 , - 203 (448) ,Lockyer, 1876


4, – 158.5 (349.5) ,Sanderson, 1879


5, – 161 (355) ,Inverarity, 1888


6, 283 172.4 (380) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


7, 267 164 (362) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


8, – 267.6 (590) ,Singh, 1959


9 , 323 222.7 (491) ,Ward, 1907


10 , 306 252.7 (557) ,Ward, 1921


11 , – 275.8 (608) ,Pocock, 1939


12, – 272 (600) ,Singh, 1970


13, 297 188.7 (416) ,Burton, 1915


14, 292 256.3 (565) ,Berg, 1943


15 , 295 227 (500) ,*Burton, 1936


16, – 156 (344) ,Marshall, 1937


17, – 149.7 (330) ,Marshall, 1937


18, 285 213.2 (470) ,Stewart, 1927

19, - 227 (500) , *Alabama Conservation, 1944

20, - 292 (645) , Ward 1922

21, - 217 (478) , Ford News 1923

22, - 225 (496) , Quarterly 1956

23, - 224 (494) , Quarterly 1956

24, - 186.4 (411) , Quarterly 1956

25, - 159 (350) , Wroughton JBNHS (Vol. 22, pp. 29-66) 

26, - 205 (452) , Buckland 1885

27, - 247.2 (545) , Ward JBNHS (Vol. 31, pp. 1-2)

28, - 217.7 (480) , Morris 1923

29, 292 181 (400) , Baker 1891

Average 212.5 kg (468.5 lb), n=29

This is Guategojiras table on the records from Hewett (1938), the average he came to was 202 kg (n=19). However, the average would be 209 kg if 17,18,and 19 were excluded due to them possibly being young.

*This image is copyright of its original author


This is Guategojiras table on the records from Cooch behar (1908). The average for 44 males was 205 kg, which is very similar to Hewett's table above...


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


This is from Brander average 190.5 kg (n=42)


*This image is copyright of its original author


This table is from Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society, Volume 10

From Hunter 1896. The average is 216 kg (n=6)



*This image is copyright of its original author


There is of course more I can post, but the remaining are already mentioned in Guategoijras old table which I will post below...

https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...from_embed

Using the data from scientific record posted by Guategojira from the following tables and historical records I posted above all combined together is...

204.5 kg (n=170), using Guategoijras data only.

However, using the extra data I posted from newsreports. The average from my scientific records data plus historical records data was 205 kg (n=178) for Indian tigers.

Apart from a peculiar glitch in the work of Peter et al. about whether 26 tigers were caught on 49 occasions, or 49 tigers were caught altogether in Chitwan National Park (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3808080?ori...b_contents), and whose work in turn was quoted by Raúl Valvert (https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...from_embed), that does seem pretty legitimate.

Amazing work.
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United States Greatearth Offline
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(05-31-2019, 11:31 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: Greetings everyone, I have finally completed my list of all scientific and historical records for wild Bengal tigers.

The following list includes weights from various sources collected across the internet. This list includes random weights from books, and averages from historical hunters and scientists collected in the field.

The following is the most recent table made by Guategoijra regarding the weights of Bengal tigers from scientific records, and other subspecies. 

 
*This image is copyright of its original author


The information from me is very similar to his table (see post #279). I have posted this on wildfact (below). The average that I came to was 219 kg (n=29) which is almost identical to his (221 kg, n=21). 

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...rs?page=19

Regarding historical records, these are all the reliable historical records I have come to find from random sources. *Note all cats above 300 kg were excluded, and cats below 150 kg also were excluded and automatically considered subadults unless otherwise stated.

Tiger No. Total length Weight in kg (and lb). Reference


1 , 292 202.7 (447) ,Baker, 1891 (adjusted)


2 , – 236.2 (520.8) ,Brown, 1893


3 , - 203 (448) ,Lockyer, 1876


4, – 158.5 (349.5) ,Sanderson, 1879


5, – 161 (355) ,Inverarity, 1888


6, 283 172.4 (380) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


7, 267 164 (362) ,Lydekker et al., 1897


8, – 267.6 (590) ,Singh, 1959


9 , 323 222.7 (491) ,Ward, 1907


10 , 306 252.7 (557) ,Ward, 1921


11 , – 275.8 (608) ,Pocock, 1939


12, – 272 (600) ,Singh, 1970


13, 297 188.7 (416) ,Burton, 1915


14, 292 256.3 (565) ,Berg, 1943


15 , 295 227 (500) ,*Burton, 1936


16, – 156 (344) ,Marshall, 1937


17, – 149.7 (330) ,Marshall, 1937


18, 285 213.2 (470) ,Stewart, 1927

19, - 227 (500) , *Alabama Conservation, 1944

20, - 292 (645) , Ward 1922

21, - 217 (478) , Ford News 1923

22, - 225 (496) , Quarterly 1956

23, - 224 (494) , Quarterly 1956

24, - 186.4 (411) , Quarterly 1956

25, - 159 (350) , Wroughton JBNHS (Vol. 22, pp. 29-66) 

26, - 205 (452) , Buckland 1885

27, - 247.2 (545) , Ward JBNHS (Vol. 31, pp. 1-2)

28, - 217.7 (480) , Morris 1923

29, 292 181 (400) , Baker 1891

Average 212.5 kg (468.5 lb), n=29

This is Guategojiras table on the records from Hewett (1938), the average he came to was 202 kg (n=19). However, the average would be 209 kg if 17,18,and 19 were excluded due to them possibly being young.

*This image is copyright of its original author


This is Guategojiras table on the records from Cooch behar (1908). The average for 44 males was 205 kg, which is very similar to Hewett's table above...


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


This is from Brander average 190.5 kg (n=42)


*This image is copyright of its original author


This table is from Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society, Volume 10

From Hunter 1896. The average is 216 kg (n=6)



*This image is copyright of its original author


There is of course more I can post, but the remaining are already mentioned in Guategoijras old table which I will post below...

https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...from_embed

Using the data from scientific record posted by Guategojira from the following tables and historical records I posted above all combined together is...

204.5 kg (n=170), using Guategoijras data only.

However, using the extra data I posted from newsreports. The average from my scientific records data plus historical records data was 205 kg (n=178) for Indian tigers.

Excellent information! Thanks a lot!

I am curious how did you get the data though.
I get to know many Asian big cat biologists, rangers, and wildlife photographer past years. Many of them are not wiling to share information on big cats in their countries in Asia due to poaching problems.
My good friend who used to watched Jai's lifetime until the day he disappeared. Despite he knows the forest department in Nagzira and Umred, but he said he only know Jai was 335.28 cm (11 ft) or over that mark. Not just he doesn't know exact length, but he knows nothing about other measurement.
As for past record since from the early-20th century is even more mystery to find size data and morphology.
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