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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 09:34 AM by Sanju )

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: However, the genetic study that is quite certain that the modern Sunda tiger also shared a common ancestor with the modern Mainland tiger as recent as 75 kya, then the aforementioned graphs were likely accurate about the whole context.

If, Java and Bali islands were connected with sumatra in glacial maximum, then this founder wanhsien population might have again colonised and bred with ngandong to form bali and javan tigers. So, that there is mainland tiger shared ancestry still existed in all sunda tigers still in 75 kya.

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Javan tiger: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but exposed to the insular dwarfism

Bali tige: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but also exposed to the insular dwarfism

Sumatran tiger: mixed descendant of the Ngandong tiger and the post-eruption mainland tiger (Wanhsien tiger) population

That's the likely theory for the evolutionary lineage for the modern Sunda tiger.

Oh ! if this is true, then I find 2 spp classification inaccurate. There must be "3" spp with sumatran in one clade and bali and javan together in one clade.

Can you please give me PDF about that phylogeny which you referred?

But the big question:

After Toba super volcanic activity, wanhsien radiation supposed to be the only one to survive and expand, how come ngandong tiger survived that catastrophe to result in 3 spp of sunda tigers?

If they survived to do that, Ngandong tiger who formed by insular gigantism undergone insular dwarfism may be because of extinction of mega fauanal prey which maintained large ngandong tigers but adaptive direction shifted as soon as large prey extinct after eruption and left this tigers to lower their body mass according to prey.

So, I think climate and geography or habitat didn't play much role as they are unchanged after and before. But, the biggest natural cat of all time becoming smallest true tiger like bali is so pathetic. so sad. Of course it's what evolution is though.
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(03-23-2019, 09:07 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: However, the genetic study that is quite certain that the modern Sunda tiger also shared a common ancestor with the modern Mainland tiger as recent as 75 kya, then the aforementioned graphs were likely accurate about the whole context.

If, Java and Bali islands were connected with sumatra in glacial maximum, then this founder wanhsien population might have again colonised and bred with ngandong to form bali and javan tigers. So, that there is mainland tiger shared ancestry still existed in all sunda tigers still in 75 kya.

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Javan tiger: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but exposed to the insular dwarfism

Bali tige: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but also exposed to the insular dwarfism

Sumatran tiger: mixed descendant of the Ngandong tiger and the post-eruption mainland tiger (Wanhsien tiger) population

That's the likely theory for the evolutionary lineage for the modern Sunda tiger.

Oh ! if this is true, then I find 2 spp classification inaccurate. There must be "3" spp with sumatran in one clade and bali and javan together in one clade.

Can you please give me PDF about that phylogeny which you referred?

But the big question:

After Toba super volcanic activity, wanhsien radiation supposed to be the only one to survive and expand, how come ngandong tiger survived that catastrophe this to result in 3 spp of sunda tigers?

If they survived to do that, Ngandong tiger who formed by insular gigantism undergone insular dwarfism may be because of extinction of mega fauanal prey which maintained large ngandong tigers but adaptive direction shifted as soon as large prey extinct after eruption and left this tigers to lower their body mass according to prey.

So, I think climate and geography or habitat didn't play much role as they are unchanged after and before.


Now it is about theories.

It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.
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(03-23-2019, 08:51 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 02:23 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The more robust Amur tigers from Manchuria might have leaning more toward the parental side of the Wanhsien tiger, while other populations inherited more from the Caspian tiger.

I think, independent of the amur subpopulation region, the reason might be selective demolishing of large tiger specimen genes from population through trophy hunting or poaching and natural selection pressure towards smaller tigers (even it is colder climate) because of low concentration and less diversity prey items and inability of smaller prey to sustain big tigers metabolism like in early holocene.

But now, as through conservation prey base are boosting in some areas, there the robust specimens are making a comeback again as it is important for mass and volume to be more in cool boreal forests for better survival and this more prey is becoming adequate to large tigers unlike before.

and Yeah, there, wanhsien genes are revealing like in Manchuria.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(He is most widespread and successful spp than conspecies and evolutionary equivalent or sympatric one in sunda i.e.., "trinil tiger")

Thanks! @tigerluver

Tigers are super flexible in term of size, and they won't need to be supersized again when there is no other megafauna in the ecosystems, same with lions.

During transitional period between the Pleistocene and Holocene, the megafauna population was already in decline, but some tiger population still managed to be the largest contemporary felines, maybe this was due the lack of competition, so tiger's size wasn't affected yet.
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India Sanju Offline
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(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.
Yeah correct ! very good.


(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.
Hmm... I think, this is a sure reason, why sumatran tiger size (other morphology) is intermediate b/w mainland (malayan) and other sunda tiger clade (bali and javan).


(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


But, I want to read the PDF (source) of this which you are referring the above info.

Or am I mistaking that, you are saying this is a theory which is not yet published? :)
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:00 AM by Sanju )

(03-23-2019, 09:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Tigers are super flexible in term of size, and they won't need to be supersized again when there is no other megafauna in the ecosystems, same with lions.
Yeah I said the same.

(03-23-2019, 09:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: During transitional period between the Pleistocene and Holocene, the megafauna population was already in decline, but some tiger population still managed to be the largest contemporary felines, maybe this was due the lack of competition, so tiger's size wasn't affected yet.

Yes, like Bengal, Caspian and Amur. I think this is due to prey adaptation of south china and indo chinese tigers in areas of south east asia and India having guars, rhinos, tapirs and elephants etc.., which are still mega fauna to again regain size. In case of Siberia, it has wild boar, MOOSE and reindeer which are big prey supplements. Caspain region too has some big prey.

And I also, it might due to high competition with dholes, leopards, bears (brown and black) and lions (-west asia to India) which enabled indo chinese tiger genes to unlock wanhsien genes again in Bengal tiger and same in case of amur and hrcanian.
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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(03-23-2019, 09:48 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.
Yeah correct ! very good.


(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.
Hmm... I think, this is a sure reason, why sumatran tiger size (other morphology) is intermediate b/w mainland (malayan) and other sunda tiger clade (bali and javan).


(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


But, I want to read the PDF (source) of this which you are referring the above info.

Or am I mistaking that, you are saying this is a theory which is not yet published? :)


Bali tiger looks like a small population of Javan tiger being isolated in the Bali island, thus in result they became even more miniaturized.

The Sumatran tiger is about the size of the Javan tiger but bigger than the Bali tiger, because the Bali tiger had been confined on an even smaller island, thus more exposed to the insular dwarfism to the extreme.

I came across these ideas from the discussion with tigerluver and Guate, and hopefully more new evidence could substantiate it.
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:14 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(03-23-2019, 10:00 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Tigers are super flexible in term of size, and they won't need to be supersized again when there is no other megafauna in the ecosystems, same with lions.
Yeah I said the same.

(03-23-2019, 09:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: During transitional period between the Pleistocene and Holocene, the megafauna population was already in decline, but some tiger population still managed to be the largest contemporary felines, maybe this was due the lack of competition, so tiger's size wasn't affected yet.

Yes, like Bengal, Caspian and Amur. I think this is due to prey adaptation of south china and indo chinese tigers in areas of south east asia and India having guars, rhinos, tapirs and elephants etc.., which are still mega fauna to again regain size. In case of Siberia, it has wild boar, MOOSE and reindeer which are big prey supplements. Caspain region too has some big prey.

And I also, it might due to high competition with dholes, leopards, bears (brown and black) and lions (-west asia to India) which enabled indo chinese tiger genes to unlock wanhsien genes again in Bengal tiger and same in case of amur and hrcanian.

tigerluver's fossil was only 20,000 years old, and the fossil likely belonged to a specimen with a 19 inches skull.

Intriguingly, this specimen should live in the dawn of the modern tiger subspecies, and according to tigerluver, it does show a lot affinity with the Indochinese tiger.

Interestingly, I am wondering if the boundary between the old strain Wanhsien tiger and the modern tiger subspecies was still quite blurred in 20,000 years ago, or everything was still in the transitional phase?
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:15 AM by Sanju )

(03-23-2019, 10:01 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Bali tiger looks like a small population of Javan tiger being isolated in the Bali island, thus in result they became even more miniaturized.
Yes, I agree.


(03-23-2019, 10:01 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I came across these ideas from the discussion with tigerluver and Guate, and hopefully more new evidence could substantiate it.

Oh ! pretty good theory. Sounds possible and I has something to support your theory. 

Quote:Panthera tigris oxygnatha is considered the one of the oldest form, which has evolved as trnasition between Panthera tigris trinilensis and Panthera tigris solensis to become the Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica).

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera_tigris_oxygnatha
https://translate.google.com/translate?h...rev=search
Peter Boomgaard, Frontiers of Fear : Tigers and People in the Malay World

Anyway until then (discovery of new evidences), we have to consider the conventional evolutionary and Phylogenetics that south china rtiger gave rise to all modern spps (9/2/3 spps whatever lol).
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(03-23-2019, 10:15 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 10:01 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Bali tiger looks like a small population of Javan tiger being isolated in the Bali island, thus in result they became even more miniaturized.
Yes, I agree.


(03-23-2019, 10:01 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I came across these ideas from the discussion with tigerluver and Guate, and hopefully more new evidence could substantiate it.

Oh ! pretty good theory. Sounds possible and I has something to support your theory. 

Quote:Panthera tigris oxygnatha is considered the one of the oldest form, which has evolved as trnasition between Panthera tigris trinilensis and Panthera tigris solensis to become the Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica).

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera_tigris_oxygnatha
https://translate.google.com/translate?h...rev=search
Peter Boomgaard, Frontiers of Fear : Tigers and People in the Malay World

Anyway until then (discovery of new evidences), we have to consider the conventional evolutionary and Phylogenetics that south china rtiger gave rise to all modern spps (9/2/3 spps whatever lol).

South China tiger and Indochinese tiger look like the morphologically unaltered version of the Wanhsien tiger, except the size.

Caspian and Bengal also descended from the Wanhsien tiger, but they were newly developed strains with very little resemblance to their predecessor.

Caspian could back migrate and procreate with the archaic Wanhsien population to give the birth of the Amur tiger.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:35 AM by Sanju )

(03-23-2019, 10:10 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Interestingly, I am wondering if the boundary between the old strain Wanhsien tiger and the modern tiger subspecies was still quite blurred in 20,000 years ago, or everything was still in the transitional phase?

I too think the same as it is suggesting so.

More importantly, particularly at 20 to 25 kya. Something, different or like a change occurred i.e.., Last Glacial Maximum.

Quote:The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) was the most recent time during the Last Glacial Period when ice sheets were at their greatest extent. Vast ice sheets covered much of North America, northern Europe, and Asia. The ice sheets profoundly affected Earth's climate by causing drought, desertification, and a large drop in sea levels. The ice sheets reached their maximum coverage about 26,500 years ago (26.5 ka BP).

*This image is copyright of its original author

(see Asia)


Quote:In Asia,
There were ice sheets in modern Tibet (although scientists continue to debate the extent to which the Tibetan Plateau was covered with ice) as well as in Baltistan and Ladakh. In Southeast Asia, many smaller mountain glaciers formed, and permafrost covered Asia as far south as Beijing.

Because of lowered sea levels, many of today's islands were joined to the continents: the Indonesian islands as far east as Borneo and Bali were connected to the Asian continent in a landmass called Sundaland. Palawan was also part of Sundaland, while the rest of the Philippine Islands formed one large island separated from the continent only by the Sibutu Passage and the Mindoro Strait.

*This image is copyright of its original author


See Tiger range map at 20 kya. https://www.researchgate.net/publication...is_a_tiger

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

This rapid climate change and habitat change might have affected or influenced as well as impacted their morphology and anatomy. See the map at that, it is maximum average of 4 degree Celsius in asia and had different habitats and vegetation affecting wild ungulate prey of tiger accordingly (see that map too).
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:49 AM by Sanju )

(03-23-2019, 10:24 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: South China tiger and Indochinese tiger look like the morphologically unaltered version of the Wanhsien tiger, except the size.
Mainly, their skulls or head looks similar to wanhsien. (IMO) and ofcourse size is a variant. Mainly south china skull very resemblant to acutidens.


(03-23-2019, 10:24 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Caspian and Bengal also descended from the Wanhsien tiger, but they were newly developed strains with very little resemblance to their predecessor. Caspian could back migrate and procreate with the archaic Wanhsien population to give the birth of the Amur tiger.
They evolved pretty recently mainly bengal. Though I find caspian similar to wanhsien (I don't know why but they look kinda similar to me Grin ). Bengal and caspian might had some connectivity at a particular point of time (may be) (see the map). Caspain and founder wanhsien of Siberia region might had an exchange of genepool again (after their separation for some time) at some point too to give amur tiger in siberia. Those amur and wanhsien in japan might had again bred to give Japanese tiger. (see map)

Spp level hybridization occurs for almost every species when their habitats are fragmented and altered by humans. Take for example, bengal and indochinese tigers reproduced until few thousand years in their overlapping ranges of north east India.
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 10:56 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

After having communicated with Mr. Stout the fossil collector who has founded Dinolandplus, @tigerluver seems to have gained a lot of knowledge about the fossil geology.

I may give him some inquiry to re-analyze those old pictures of the Wanhsien tiger fossils.
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( This post was last modified: 03-23-2019, 06:49 PM by Shadow )

(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:07 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: However, the genetic study that is quite certain that the modern Sunda tiger also shared a common ancestor with the modern Mainland tiger as recent as 75 kya, then the aforementioned graphs were likely accurate about the whole context.

If, Java and Bali islands were connected with sumatra in glacial maximum, then this founder wanhsien population might have again colonised and bred with ngandong to form bali and javan tigers. So, that there is mainland tiger shared ancestry still existed in all sunda tigers still in 75 kya.

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Javan tiger: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but exposed to the insular dwarfism

Bali tige: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but also exposed to the insular dwarfism

Sumatran tiger: mixed descendant of the Ngandong tiger and the post-eruption mainland tiger (Wanhsien tiger) population

That's the likely theory for the evolutionary lineage for the modern Sunda tiger.

Oh ! if this is true, then I find 2 spp classification inaccurate. There must be "3" spp with sumatran in one clade and bali and javan together in one clade.

Can you please give me PDF about that phylogeny which you referred?

But the big question:

After Toba super volcanic activity, wanhsien radiation supposed to be the only one to survive and expand, how come ngandong tiger survived that catastrophe this to result in 3 spp of sunda tigers?

If they survived to do that, Ngandong tiger who formed by insular gigantism undergone insular dwarfism may be because of extinction of mega fauanal prey which maintained large ngandong tigers but adaptive direction shifted as soon as large prey extinct after eruption and left this tigers to lower their body mass according to prey.

So, I think climate and geography or habitat didn't play much role as they are unchanged after and before.


Now it is about theories.

It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.

If you look at that latest study, which tigerluver shared, there are 9 subspecies and 6 are extant. Java and Bali tigers are there as different subspecies. I am not sure if anyone here has competence to say otherwise, when there is serious scientific study giving those results. I mean this is something different, that debates about weights etc. We are talking here about serious research made in laboratories by professionals. I haven´t seen anything after that study, which would have been saying something else. Other information is older and not as accurate as far as I know(?).
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( This post was last modified: 03-24-2019, 02:51 AM by tigerluver )

(03-23-2019, 06:48 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:07 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: However, the genetic study that is quite certain that the modern Sunda tiger also shared a common ancestor with the modern Mainland tiger as recent as 75 kya, then the aforementioned graphs were likely accurate about the whole context.

If, Java and Bali islands were connected with sumatra in glacial maximum, then this founder wanhsien population might have again colonised and bred with ngandong to form bali and javan tigers. So, that there is mainland tiger shared ancestry still existed in all sunda tigers still in 75 kya.

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Javan tiger: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but exposed to the insular dwarfism

Bali tige: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but also exposed to the insular dwarfism

Sumatran tiger: mixed descendant of the Ngandong tiger and the post-eruption mainland tiger (Wanhsien tiger) population

That's the likely theory for the evolutionary lineage for the modern Sunda tiger.

Oh ! if this is true, then I find 2 spp classification inaccurate. There must be "3" spp with sumatran in one clade and bali and javan together in one clade.

Can you please give me PDF about that phylogeny which you referred?

But the big question:

After Toba super volcanic activity, wanhsien radiation supposed to be the only one to survive and expand, how come ngandong tiger survived that catastrophe this to result in 3 spp of sunda tigers?

If they survived to do that, Ngandong tiger who formed by insular gigantism undergone insular dwarfism may be because of extinction of mega fauanal prey which maintained large ngandong tigers but adaptive direction shifted as soon as large prey extinct after eruption and left this tigers to lower their body mass according to prey.

So, I think climate and geography or habitat didn't play much role as they are unchanged after and before.


Now it is about theories.

It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.

If you look at that latest study, which tigerluver shared, there are 9 subspecies and 6 are extant. Java and Bali tigers are there as different subspecies. I am not sure if anyone here has competence to say otherwise, when there is serious scientific study giving those results. I mean this is something different, that debates about weights etc. We are talking here about serious research made in laboratories by professionals. I haven´t seen anything after that study, which would have been saying something else. Other information is older and not as accurate as far as I know(?).


The extinct taxa were not analyzed in that study so if that is what they concluded the study didn't have data to support that just yet. Skimming through they did not conclude that, just cited older works.


Key thing to note here is that similar to my critique regarding the two subspecies theory study, this study is authored by the group that supports the multi-subspecies theory. Remember that the idea of species is not a natural concept, it is just a man-made way of trying to fulfill our need for the rationalization of our surroundings. Such is not as obvious in cats but in Apistogramma (a small tropical cichlid) for example, there are many true species but they can breed and produce fertile offspring just fine, displaying the flaw in the species principle. If we need a felid example we can look at the P. spelaea-fossilis debate. Subspecies and ecotypes are even more relative and sliding scales essentially so it is expected as teams get publications out the "most recent" info will be bouncing back and forth.
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(03-24-2019, 02:50 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 06:48 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 09:07 AM)Sanju Wrote:
(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: However, the genetic study that is quite certain that the modern Sunda tiger also shared a common ancestor with the modern Mainland tiger as recent as 75 kya, then the aforementioned graphs were likely accurate about the whole context.

If, Java and Bali islands were connected with sumatra in glacial maximum, then this founder wanhsien population might have again colonised and bred with ngandong to form bali and javan tigers. So, that there is mainland tiger shared ancestry still existed in all sunda tigers still in 75 kya.

(03-23-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Javan tiger: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but exposed to the insular dwarfism

Bali tige: pure biological descendant of the Ngandong tiger, but also exposed to the insular dwarfism

Sumatran tiger: mixed descendant of the Ngandong tiger and the post-eruption mainland tiger (Wanhsien tiger) population

That's the likely theory for the evolutionary lineage for the modern Sunda tiger.

Oh ! if this is true, then I find 2 spp classification inaccurate. There must be "3" spp with sumatran in one clade and bali and javan together in one clade.

Can you please give me PDF about that phylogeny which you referred?

But the big question:

After Toba super volcanic activity, wanhsien radiation supposed to be the only one to survive and expand, how come ngandong tiger survived that catastrophe this to result in 3 spp of sunda tigers?

If they survived to do that, Ngandong tiger who formed by insular gigantism undergone insular dwarfism may be because of extinction of mega fauanal prey which maintained large ngandong tigers but adaptive direction shifted as soon as large prey extinct after eruption and left this tigers to lower their body mass according to prey.

So, I think climate and geography or habitat didn't play much role as they are unchanged after and before.


Now it is about theories.

It is possible that not all local Pleistocene tiger population in the Sunda Shelf died out after the Toba eruption, and the remaining population managed to survive.

When the ecosystems had been recovered after few millennia, another large influx of Mainland tiger managed to migrate to the western part of the Sunda Shelf. The eastern part might be relatively more isolated, thus the Sunda tigers over there were pure, whereas in the western part the Sunda tigers managed to interbreed with the Mainland tiger, therefore the hybrid tiger population like the Sumatran tigers were created.


BTW, the difference between the Javan tiger and Bali tiger were only geographical, since they only isolate from each other for few thousands years, so it was not enough to be considered as two separated subspecies.

If you look at that latest study, which tigerluver shared, there are 9 subspecies and 6 are extant. Java and Bali tigers are there as different subspecies. I am not sure if anyone here has competence to say otherwise, when there is serious scientific study giving those results. I mean this is something different, that debates about weights etc. We are talking here about serious research made in laboratories by professionals. I haven´t seen anything after that study, which would have been saying something else. Other information is older and not as accurate as far as I know(?).


The extinct taxa were not analyzed in that study so if that is what they concluded the study didn't have data to support that just yet. Skimming through they did not conclude that, just cited older works.


Key thing to note here is that similar to my critique regarding the two subspecies theory study, this study is authored by the group that supports the multi-subspecies theory. Remember that the idea of species is not a natural concept, it is just a man-made way of trying to fulfill our need for the rationalization of our surroundings. Such is not as obvious in cats but in Apistogramma (a small tropical cichlid) for example, there are many true species but they can breed and produce fertile offspring just fine, displaying the flaw in the species principle. If we need a felid example we can look at the P. spelaea-fossilis debate. Subspecies and ecotypes are even more relative and sliding scales essentially so it is expected as teams get publications out the "most recent" info will be bouncing back and forth.

Main point from me is, that when there are some commonly agreed species and subspecies, those can´t be changed by some amateurs/amateur groups. It is good to notice too, that in this new study are also at least two persons, who are in that big cat specialists group too. Interesting to see, what kind of comments come from science community, but this kind of research is something else than some hunters giving opinions about size and behavior of some animals.
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