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Lions of Timbavati
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Larger Mbiri male asserts his dominance at a kill:
So glad to see them looking so good at 10.5, at the beginning of the year when they left their pride and were looking very skinny I thought I'd never see them in top condition again. 
Zig zag must have one of the largest heads in the business. Great to see him doing so well
The white Birmingham male seen recently in Umbabat at Nsala wilderness camp
Photo credit: Shoas Shaun  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (07-10-2024, 07:13 PM)T I N O Wrote: The white Birmingham male seen recently in Umbabat at Nsala wilderness camp What a perfect shot, a super rare white male lion, who is looking amazing btw, and a termite mound that takes the shape of a pyramid. 
Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer.
 (07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer. I dont think this applies for white gene males, they are "anomaly". Also, theres no "evidence" that supports this theory that darker maned males are more dominant then blondish ones. Just as we have coalitions where dark maned males where most dominant, we also have coalitions where they where not. (07-10-2024, 10:56 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer. While I agree, the white gene males are the result of a genetic anomaly, though different from albinism, it is the result of a genetic marker that leads to this specific lack of pigment, while the eyes and the nose remain a color that is not pink. But, about the testosterone causing darker manes evidence. After watching Brothers in Blood, I was left under the impression, based on the comments of that researcher in the movie, that they know this to be the case. He, obviously, did not delve into the subject, but his comment "we know that black maned males have a higher testosterone count" was said in a way as to lead one to believe it was factually based. Is that not true, have they not actually looked into that deep? An interesting aside, back when I was reading about the white lions, one thing I came across was that they still permit trophy hunting of lions in the Greater Timbavati region, I assume that comment was referring to areas like the dreaded Sandrigham, which as you found, yourself, that reserve is known to permit poaching. (07-10-2024, 11:18 PM)BA0701 Wrote: But, about the testosterone causing darker manes evidence. After watching Brothers in Blood, I was left under the impression, based on the comments of that researcher in the movie, that they know this to be the case. He, obviously, did not delve into the subject, but his comment "we know that black maned males have a higher testosterone count" was said in a way as to lead one to believe it was factually based. Is that not true, have they not actually looked into that deep? Higher testosterone lvls yes, but does that means that darker maned males are more dominant? I think theres more in play.  (07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right.There are no stydys (at least as far as I know) no that. Guides just seeing that darker maned males were statistically more often dominant than their coalition mates acme to conclusion they must have higher testosteron levels, making males more agressive and giving them better odds in competing with other males. 
Cut off the testes and the mane falls out. Give a lioness testosteron and the mane grows.
So there obviously is a link there. But genetics probably also plays a bigger role. We have seen plenty of lions never developing a black mane despite being fully territorial and confident in their position. Its also not indicative of rank in a coalition. Afterall the top ranking lion may experience far more stress than a middle ranked lion as he feels he needs to defend his position more. Which would result in a lighter mane.
Their color is probably unrelated to normal lion conventions but our sample of white dominant male lions is way too small to even try to make an educated guess based on empirical evidence.
Edit: as far as dark manes go, let's not forget that Doctor Craig Packer ( probably the greatest lion expert and researcher of all times ) straight up said that dark-maned lions have higher testosterone levels and are "quite superior" and "when they fight, we expect the dark-maned lion to defeat the blond lion". He made studies to back up his claims while he and other researchers would play roars and use dummy lions of cardboard to oust the resident males. He found out that the lionesses would often show a lot of interest in the dark-maned fake lions, as well as that while the blond males would be more likely to get ousted, the dark-maned lions would rush to confront the enemy and attack the dummy lion. 
There are studies that were conducted by Peyton West and Dr Craig Packer, experts in lion behavior and ecology, that indeed indicate that the more testosterone male lions have, the darker the mane becomes (of course, factors like genetics and age play a role but a positive correlation between mane colour and serum testosterone has been observed nonetheless).
Here is one of their papers: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1073257 That being said, a dark/black mane and high testosterone, are not the be-all and end-all when it comes to dominance, as @Tr1x24 mentioned. A case in point that comes to mind is Shaka Mbiri. He has a much lighter and shorter male than ZigZag but even the guides have mentioned how Shaka would get the better of his brother in fights.
I agree with Rabubi but idk if the Mbiris are a perfect example of a lighter-maned male being more dominant. While there was a report of Shaka dominating Scar over mating rights of the Mayambula females back in 2018 or 2019, there was another one later where the brothers fought over the Skorro females, Scar won and chased Shaka off.
These, to my knowledge, are the only reports of mating rights fights between the 2 that we have, so it's 1-1. Still, we have footage of Scar mating with 3 Mbiri females at the same time while the guide said Shaka was still around, so it could be another instance where Scar was more dominant. Out of the 6 Mayambula males, I think at least 4 resemble Scar, though this doesn't mean much necessarily. My impression - and that's only an impression - is that Shaka was more dominant earlier on while Scar became more dominant later on in their career. (07-11-2024, 12:53 AM)Rabubi Wrote: There are studies that were conducted by Peyton West and Dr Craig Packer, experts in lion behavior and ecology, that indeed indicate that the more testosterone male lions have, the darker the mane becomes (of course, factors like genetics and age play a role but a positive correlation between mane colour and serum testosterone has been observed nonetheless). Is Doctor Craig Packer the gentleman from Brothers in Blood, who made that comment? If so, your comment would certainly explain why he made it in such a matter of fact way.
That's him, yes, he is in Brothers in Blood and does make the comment about dark manes.
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