There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Are both the BBoys with the Kambulas?
"The Kambula pride and their males (both) were viewed near Calabash Crossing"
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Well lets hope that nothing happens for sake of all those Kambula cubs and sub-adults.
Bboys are definitely not interested in Sparta pride, because they have big pride on their own,but for S. Avocas, they could smell big prize in Kambula pride, they are in their prime and 2 Sparta lionesses are too little for their ambitious. But idk if they can takeover Kambula pride as only 2, even if they can beat 2 Bboys (i doubt that) you know that 6 big Kambula lionesses will support them if the males will stick with the pride.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Are both the BBoys with the Kambulas?
"The Kambula pride and their males (both) were viewed near Calabash Crossing"
Thanks @Potato Missed that part. In the earlier photos, I think I only saw Nhenha.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Well lets hope that nothing happens for sake of all those Kambula cubs and sub-adults.
Bboys are definitely not interested in Sparta pride, because they have big pride on their own,but for S. Avocas, they could smell big prize in Kambula pride, they are in their prime and 2 Sparta lionesses are too little for their ambitious. But idk if they can takeover Kambula pride as only 2, even if they can beat 2 Bboys (i doubt that) you know that 6 big Kambula lionesses will support them if the males will stick with the pride.
I am more worried about the Sparta pride as they are the smaller pride and have only one cub. In any skirmish they will have more to lose than the Kambulas. I don't think it would come to blows if the Avocas are a bit more assertive.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Well lets hope that nothing happens for sake of all those Kambula cubs and sub-adults.
Bboys are definitely not interested in Sparta pride, because they have big pride on their own,but for S. Avocas, they could smell big prize in Kambula pride, they are in their prime and 2 Sparta lionesses are too little for their ambitious. But idk if they can takeover Kambula pride as only 2, even if they can beat 2 Bboys (i doubt that) you know that 6 big Kambula lionesses will support them if the males will stick with the pride.
I am more worried about the Sparta pride as they are the smaller pride and have only one cub. In any skirmish they will have more to lose than the Kambulas. I don't think it would come to blows if the Avocas are a bit more assertive.
kambula lioness are the ones that killed the sparta lioness when they were with matshapira males. Kambula lioness are some beast! they are almost tall as the males.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Well lets hope that nothing happens for sake of all those Kambula cubs and sub-adults.
Bboys are definitely not interested in Sparta pride, because they have big pride on their own,but for S. Avocas, they could smell big prize in Kambula pride, they are in their prime and 2 Sparta lionesses are too little for their ambitious. But idk if they can takeover Kambula pride as only 2, even if they can beat 2 Bboys (i doubt that) you know that 6 big Kambula lionesses will support them if the males will stick with the pride.
I am more worried about the Sparta pride as they are the smaller pride and have only one cub. In any skirmish they will have more to lose than the Kambulas. I don't think it would come to blows if the Avocas are a bit more assertive.
kambula lioness are the ones that killed the sparta lioness when they were with matshapira males. Kambula lioness are some beast! they are almost tall as the males.
I suppose this will be a major test for the Avocas. They were put to flight by the last mature dominant males they ran into (the Charleston boys) about a year or so ago. May be they will be more resolute with a cub to defend.
(11-26-2019, 04:48 PM)Potato Wrote: Southern Avocas vs Birmingham males is on the table. From Mala Mala:
Lions: With the bulk of the Kambula pride and both Gowrie males spending so much time in the south, one has to wonder if an encounter with the 2 Avoca males is on the cards? These lions last encountered each other a few years ago and today was the closest they’ve been since. The Kambula pride and their males were viewed near Calabash Crossing, while the Avoca males were at KK Crossing... just over a kilometer away. The 4 youngest cubs in the pride and their mother were seen near Rattray’s Camp.
Well lets hope that nothing happens for sake of all those Kambula cubs and sub-adults.
Bboys are definitely not interested in Sparta pride, because they have big pride on their own,but for S. Avocas, they could smell big prize in Kambula pride, they are in their prime and 2 Sparta lionesses are too little for their ambitious. But idk if they can takeover Kambula pride as only 2, even if they can beat 2 Bboys (i doubt that) you know that 6 big Kambula lionesses will support them if the males will stick with the pride.
I am more worried about the Sparta pride as they are the smaller pride and have only one cub. In any skirmish they will have more to lose than the Kambulas. I don't think it would come to blows if the Avocas are a bit more assertive.
kambula lioness are the ones that killed the sparta lioness when they were with matshapira males. Kambula lioness are some beast! they are almost tall as the males.
I suppose this will be a major test for the Avocas. They were put to flight by the last mature dominant males they ran into (the Charleston boys) about a year or so ago. May be they will be more resolute with a cub to defend.
I would never compare size of challange which comes with taking on Charleston maales to taking on BBoys. Charlestons were much bigger males and overall frightening duo. I hope Avocas will push BBoys and Kambula pride back north because their presence is serious threat to Sparta pride.
(11-26-2019, 10:52 PM)Potato Wrote: I would never compare size of challange which comes with taking on Charleston maales to taking on BBoys. Charlestons were much bigger males and overall frightening duo. I hope Avocas will push BBoys and Kambula pride back north because their presence is serious threat to Sparta pride.
People loves to underestimate Bboys,this 2 old guys are massive beasts,experience in fighting as a dominance in a gruop of 5 is on test almost every day,they wont back down from any males,if they where scared of S.Avocas they certantly wouldnt be in their territory. S. Avocas as somebody said,back down last time when 2 big males come into their territory,this is new test for them.
(11-26-2019, 10:52 PM)Potato Wrote: I would never compare size of challange which comes with taking on Charleston maales to taking on BBoys. Charlestons were much bigger males and overall frightening duo. I hope Avocas will push BBoys and Kambula pride back north because their presence is serious threat to Sparta pride.
People loves to underestimate Bboys,this 2 old guys are massive beasts,experience in fighting as a dominance in a gruop of 5 is on test almost every day,they wont back down from any males,if they where scared of S.Avocas they certantly wouldnt be in their territory. S. Avocas as somebody said,back down last time when 2 big males come into their territory,this is new test for them.
I agree and I would also put my pet on BBoys in potential confrontation however:
1. If BBoys will be hesitant to take on Avocas than that will be enough to secure Sparta pride and force BBoys back north.
2. Avocas are so far kind of unknown in terms of strenght. They were chassed by the Charlestons, but Charlestons are on higher level in compare to BBoys and that Charlestons could chasse Avocas around doesn't meen that BBoys will be able to do that as well. Also Avocas have 3 Tsalala males on their resume so it is not that they are some joke duo.
(11-27-2019, 12:25 AM)Potato Wrote: I agree and I would also put my pet on BBoys in potential confrontation however:
1. If BBoys will be hesitant to take on Avocas than that will be enough to secure Sparta pride and force BBoys back north.
2. Avocas are so far kind of unknown in terms of strenght. They were chassed by the Charlestons, but Charlestons are on higher level in compare to BBoys and that Charlestons could chasse Avocas around doesn't meen that BBoys will be able to do that as well. Also Avocas have 3 Tsalala males on their resume so it is not that they are some joke duo.
S. Avocas where still new to this area and fairly young when Charlestons returned, they where not confident enough yet to challenge them.
Based on what you think that Charlestons are higher lvl then Bboys??
And as far i know, theres no report of S. Avocas beating/chasing Tsalala males ever (Tsalalas where half a year younger even) , they had a few little scraps over some carcases with few diffrent outcomes, even few times feeding together. Tsalalas where mating with 1 Sparta lionesses, but where never dominant over that pride, S. Avocas certaintly didnt takeover Sparta from them, Tsalalas just left that area and went into Kruger.
The following 1 user Likes Tr1x24's post:1 user Likes Tr1x24's post • Mohawk4
in relation to avoca vs tsalala, yes the Avocas fought the 3 tsalala boys and won.
"However, the hope of a stable near-future for the Tsalala Males and Eyrefield lionesses was short-lived. On 26 March, the guides at Lion Sands Kruger National Park witnessed the unpleasant aftermath of a territorial dispute between the Tsalala and Avoca Males that morning. Despite the Tsalalas having numbers on their side, the Avocas severely injured one of their lions. The guides later saw him in a bad condition, with what appeared to be injuries to his spine. We weren’t able to relocate him for several days afterwards, so were unsure of the extent of his wounds. Two Tsalala Males were seen together a few days later, moving from Lion Sands Kruger National Park back into Lion Sands Sabi Sand, with no sign of the third. We were worried that their injured brother might not have made it. Thankfully, on 1 April, all three males were seen together, although not in top condition. They will need to hunt soon and recover quickly if they are going to maintain a presence in this area. After the fight between the coalitions, the Avoca Males wasted no time in finding the Eyrefields lionesses again. They were spotted together, with one lioness displaying coy behaviour towards one of the males. We didn’t see them mate, although it is likely they had been. If these lionesses hold back from mating, it would be because they are waiting to see if these males are strong enough to defend the territory and their future offspring.
We will have to wait and see what happens next…"
this from lionsands blog...
in relation to this new situation about 2 avocas vs bboys, my money is of course in the brothers, Avoca boys... the bboys ever fight with other coalition in the past?
11-27-2019, 02:29 PM( This post was last modified: 11-27-2019, 05:45 PM by Tr1x24 )
(11-27-2019, 04:44 AM)Blondemane Wrote: hi Tr1x24 welcome to the forum :)
in relation to avoca vs tsalala, yes the Avocas fought the 3 tsalala boys and won.
"However, the hope of a stable near-future for the Tsalala Males and Eyrefield lionesses was short-lived. On 26 March, the guides at Lion Sands Kruger National Park witnessed the unpleasant aftermath of a territorial dispute between the Tsalala and Avoca Males that morning. Despite the Tsalalas having numbers on their side, the Avocas severely injured one of their lions. The guides later saw him in a bad condition, with what appeared to be injuries to his spine. We weren’t able to relocate him for several days afterwards, so were unsure of the extent of his wounds. Two Tsalala Males were seen together a few days later, moving from Lion Sands Kruger National Park back into Lion Sands Sabi Sand, with no sign of the third. We were worried that their injured brother might not have made it. Thankfully, on 1 April, all three males were seen together, although not in top condition. They will need to hunt soon and recover quickly if they are going to maintain a presence in this area. After the fight between the coalitions, the Avoca Males wasted no time in finding the Eyrefields lionesses again. They were spotted together, with one lioness displaying coy behaviour towards one of the males. We didn’t see them mate, although it is likely they had been. If these lionesses hold back from mating, it would be because they are waiting to see if these males are strong enough to defend the territory and their future offspring.
We will have to wait and see what happens next…"
this from lionsands blog...
in relation to this new situation about 2 avocas vs bboys, my money is of course in the brothers, Avoca boys... the bboys ever fight with other coalition in the past?
Well i know that 1 injured Tsalala was seen few days after in Londolozi with his brothers, but i never read that somebody witness the fight and that it come from the Avocas, regardless, Tsalalas where atleast half a year younger and not ready yet to be a dominant males over older Avocas.
Bboys did maul 1 male to death in Manyeleti, i forgot which one, and did several beatings to the 2 Selati males when they started to establish themselfs in the north, but main reason they didnt fight that much is because other coalitions didnt want to mess with coalition of 5 and later 4 (S. Matimbas example) and not because they are "weak",they are known for beign very agressive and dominant males, they did whatever they want since they become dominant in late 2015,and nobody challenge them still to today, always holding multiple and the biggest prides, that speaks something about them.
I like S. Avocas, they are big and beutiful males, but they still need to prove themself.
Thats my opninion, everyone has his own and i respect that.
Latest reports are that Bboys with Kambulas are heading back north in MalaMala, so prob nothing will happen afterall.
(11-27-2019, 12:25 AM)Potato Wrote: I agree and I would also put my pet on BBoys in potential confrontation however:
1. If BBoys will be hesitant to take on Avocas than that will be enough to secure Sparta pride and force BBoys back north.
2. Avocas are so far kind of unknown in terms of strenght. They were chassed by the Charlestons, but Charlestons are on higher level in compare to BBoys and that Charlestons could chasse Avocas around doesn't meen that BBoys will be able to do that as well. Also Avocas have 3 Tsalala males on their resume so it is not that they are some joke duo.
S. Avocas where still new to this area and fairly young when Charlestons returned, they where not confident enough yet to challenge them.
Based on what you think that Charlestons are higher lvl then Bboys??
And as far i know, theres no report of S. Avocas beating/chasing Tsalala males ever (Tsalalas where half a year younger even) , they had a few little scraps over some carcases with few diffrent outcomes, even few times feeding together. Tsalalas where mating with 1 Sparta lionesses, but where never dominant over that pride, S. Avocas certaintly didnt takeover Sparta from them, Tsalalas just left that area and went into Kruger.
Confrontation with Charlestones was in july 2018. Avocas are born in early 2013 so I would argue if Avoca's age can be excuse. "Based on what you think that Charlestons are higher lvl then Bboys??" Mainly on size difference ( Charlestones were always considered very big males, when BBoys... well I know there is myth that they are big, but so far from what I heard from guides speaking about their size it is just a myth. Nhenha may be over avarage, but he is no near Charlestons size, not even speaking about Tinyo. Second think is their resume. Charlestons no doubt proved themselfs, when BBoys weren't really been ever tested by enemy coalition.
What comes to Tsalala vs Avoca there you can see full raport if you are intrested: https://www.lionsands.com/2018/04/two-contending-coalitions/
The following 1 user Likes Potato's post:1 user Likes Potato's post • Lycaon
