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Lions of Sabi Sands

Duco Ndona Offline
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I agree that there is probably a cycle in these things. We had a period of large powerful coalitions a while ago which thinned out the amount of rival coalitions. As a result a lot of cubs are currently making it to adulthood which is increasing the amount of coalitions in the reserve until there are too many. 

I don't think the male lions care much about the exact number of sexual partners, defeated rivals or leaving a genetic legacy. They are just trying to make the best out of life.
It wouldn't be fair to compare a male lion that prefers to stick to one pride and defend it so well he raises multiple generations of cubs. With one that likes to take over prides and does so very well. But loses them quickly once he leaves to take another.
Both can be argued to be the most successful. The first for having a good long life as a pride male and most offspring. The second for having the most opportunities to mate and successful takeovers. 

Perhaps the fairest comparison would be who lost the least fights as that is what each lion tries to avoid. But I don't think there are records on that.
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Tr1x24 Online
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( This post was last modified: 10-22-2021, 11:18 PM by Tr1x24 )

(10-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Gijima Wrote: My point about the Majingilanes, who I actually never really liked back in the day, is more about their dominance over other male lions and willingness to fight for their territory. Like the way they marched back to Londolozi to chase away Matimbas or their take-over of the west. They really remind me more of the Mjejanes. Not that that makes them better or worse.. just an observation.

But agree with all your points above. I think we are privileged to see many successful coalitions, each with their own unique style.

I dont like that "narrative" that Bboys are not conquerers or that they avoid fights or something..

Bboys, just like Majingilanes, had 2 big territory takeovers in their lives, its not BBoys fault that Matimbas decided to run and not fight, its not their fault that Majingilanes and Matshapiris reign around central Sabi Sands was coming to an end at that time, Bboys would conquered that territory regardless because they where 4 prime males at that time.. 

Also, i dont understand your point that they dont want to fight for territory? Bboys until this year (only 2 and out of prime) didn't lost inch of their territory against their will.. They literally killed prime male who was invading their territory this year, and chased/fought numerous young males from their territory since 2016 (obiviously no males would challenge them for territory when they where 4 and even 3, so they didnt have to fight intruding coalition in those years.) 

You mentioned  how Majingilanes chased Matimbas (4 vs 2) but you didn't mentioned Nhenha and Tinyo vs 4 Nwaswitshakas? Which is far more impressive feat, and no, Nwaswitshakas where not that young, they where all around 4.5 yrs old (Wide Nose over 5 - 5.5 yrs) then and starting to establishing themselves.

People have that narrative that because Bboys didn't kill males in their territory takeovers, they are not fighters or "vicious" like Majingilanes for example who killed 2 males in their takeovers, which is funny, as they would definitely kill any male if they had a chance to do so, as it is in lions takeovers.. 

So i disagree, i dont think they are any different then Majingilanes in that regard what you said, both coalitions are one of the greatest in recent years of Sabi Sands.
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Gijima Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-23-2021, 12:17 AM by Gijima )

(10-22-2021, 11:11 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Gijima Wrote: My point about the Majingilanes, who I actually never really liked back in the day, is more about their dominance over other male lions and willingness to fight for their territory. Like the way they marched back to Londolozi to chase away Matimbas or their take-over of the west. They really remind me more of the Mjejanes. Not that that makes them better or worse.. just an observation.

But agree with all your points above. I think we are privileged to see many successful coalitions, each with their own unique style.

I dont like that "narrative" that Bboys are not conquerers or that they avoid fights or something..

Bboys, just like Majingilanes, had 2 big territory takeovers in their lives, its not BBoys fault that Matimbas decided to run and not fight, its not their fault that Majingilanes and Matshapiris reign around central Sabi Sands was coming to an end at that time, Bboys would conquered that territory regardless because they where 4 prime males at that time.. 

Also, i dont understand your point that they dont want to fight for territory? Bboys until this year (only 2 and out of prime) didn't lost inch of their territory against their will.. They literally killed prime male who was invading their territory this year, and chased/fought numerous young males from their territory since 2016 (obiviously no males would challenge them for territory when they where 4 and even 3, so they didnt have to fight intruding coalition in those years.) 

You mentioned  how Majingilanes chased Matimbas (4 vs 2) but you didn't mentioned Nhenha and Tinyo vs 4 Nwaswitshakas? Which is far more impressive feat, and no, Nwaswitshakas where not that young, they where all around 4.5 yrs old (Wide Nose over 5 - 5.5 yrs) then and starting to establishing themselves.

People have that narrative that because Bboys didn't kill males in their territory takeovers, they are not fighters or "vicious" like Majingilanes for example who killed 2 males in their takeovers, which is funny, as they would definitely kill any male if they had a chance to do so, as it is in lions takeovers.. 

So i disagree, i dont think they are any different then Majingilanes in that regard what you said, both coalitions are one of the greatest in recent years of Sabi Sands.

You are comparing lions who lived in one of the most brutal times in lion history, to lions who lived in one of the most peaceful times in lion history. 

There is no comparison as I said. Even in this generation, there are plenty of duo coalitions who are older who are doing far more than the Birminghams.

I told myself I won't get into debates with fans of particular coalitions. These days no one can have a realistic conversation about the strengths and weakness of each coalition. It's just endless "size" debates, who chases who more, and on and on. 

When I talk about the Majingilanes I'm not talking about "chases". I'm talking about territories held and their strategy they had till their last breath to not give up ground... something only very few coalitions succeed in doing. We all read the reports and saw these events.  I think the BBoys have done perfectly fine and their strategy is keeping them alive and healthy. Good for them. But they aren't the Majingilanes. And head on the Majingilanes proved they were superior by pushing five Birminghams back east and not giving up any ground to them while they were alive. So what's there to debate?
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Spain Calvitoo Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-23-2021, 12:59 AM by Calvitoo )

(10-23-2021, 12:16 AM)Gijima Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 11:11 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(10-22-2021, 10:18 PM)Gijima Wrote: My point about the Majingilanes, who I actually never really liked back in the day, is more about their dominance over other male lions and willingness to fight for their territory. Like the way they marched back to Londolozi to chase away Matimbas or their take-over of the west. They really remind me more of the Mjejanes. Not that that makes them better or worse.. just an observation.

But agree with all your points above. I think we are privileged to see many successful coalitions, each with their own unique style.

I dont like that "narrative" that Bboys are not conquerers or that they avoid fights or something..

Bboys, just like Majingilanes, had 2 big territory takeovers in their lives, its not BBoys fault that Matimbas decided to run and not fight, its not their fault that Majingilanes and Matshapiris reign around central Sabi Sands was coming to an end at that time, Bboys would conquered that territory regardless because they where 4 prime males at that time.. 

Also, i dont understand your point that they dont want to fight for territory? Bboys until this year (only 2 and out of prime) didn't lost inch of their territory against their will.. They literally killed prime male who was invading their territory this year, and chased/fought numerous young males from their territory since 2016 (obiviously no males would challenge them for territory when they where 4 and even 3, so they didnt have to fight intruding coalition in those years.) 

You mentioned  how Majingilanes chased Matimbas (4 vs 2) but you didn't mentioned Nhenha and Tinyo vs 4 Nwaswitshakas? Which is far more impressive feat, and no, Nwaswitshakas where not that young, they where all around 4.5 yrs old (Wide Nose over 5 - 5.5 yrs) then and starting to establishing themselves.

People have that narrative that because Bboys didn't kill males in their territory takeovers, they are not fighters or "vicious" like Majingilanes for example who killed 2 males in their takeovers, which is funny, as they would definitely kill any male if they had a chance to do so, as it is in lions takeovers.. 

So i disagree, i dont think they are any different then Majingilanes in that regard what you said, both coalitions are one of the greatest in recent years of Sabi Sands.

You are comparing lions who lived in one of the most brutal times in lion history, to lions who lived in one of the most peaceful times in lion history. 

There is no comparison as I said. Even in this generation, there are plenty of duo coalitions who are older who are doing far more than the Birminghams.

I told myself I won't get into debates with fans of particular coalitions. These days no one can have a realistic conversation about the strengths and weakness of each coalition. It's just endless "size" debates, who chases who more, and on and on. 

When I talk about the Majingilanes I'm not talking about "chases". I'm talking about territories held and their strategy they had till their last breath to not give up ground... something only very few coalitions succeed in doing. We all read the reports and saw these events.  I think the BBoys have done perfectly fine and their strategy is keeping them alive and healthy. Good for them. But they aren't the Majingilanes. And head on the Majingilanes proved they were superior by pushing five Birminghams back east and not giving up any ground to them while they were alive. So what's there to debate?
That the Majingilanes were always 4 and in their last years they were 3, the BBoys have been reduced to 2 and losing two members in a year and are in the center where they have pressure from all sides, the Majingilanes did not have much pressure in their last years In their reign only in the eastern sector with their numbers they could retain almost any threat, it is true that the Majingilanes held back the BBoys who were very young and inexperienced and the Birmingham were more interested in the Matimbas territory at that time.
Tinyo and Nhenha have done very well as a duo, considering what has happened to them lately, I doubt that any duo from this generation are doing more than these two warriors.
Although the BBoys will never be like the Majingilanes but there is no belittling the Birminghams.
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Tr1x24 Online
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(10-23-2021, 12:16 AM)Gijima Wrote: You are comparing lions who lived in one of the most brutal times in lion history, to lions who lived in one of the most peaceful times in lion history. 

There is no comparison as I said. Even in this generation, there are plenty of duo coalitions who are older who are doing far more than the Birminghams.

I told myself I won't get into debates with fans of particular coalitions. These days no one can have a realistic conversation about the strengths and weakness of each coalition. It's just endless "size" debates, who chases who more, and on and on. 

When I talk about the Majingilanes I'm not talking about "chases". I'm talking about territories held and their strategy they had till their last breath to not give up ground... something only very few coalitions succeed in doing. We all read the reports and saw these events.  I think the BBoys have done perfectly fine and their strategy is keeping them alive and healthy. Good for them. But they aren't the Majingilanes. And head on the Majingilanes proved they were superior by pushing five Birminghams back east and not giving up any ground to them while they were alive. So what's there to debate?

Theres no debate, you are saying that Majingilanes are superior coalition to Bboys, which i disagree, as both are up there together, it only comes to personal preferance/sympathy, just like with Mapogos also.
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Poland Potato Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-23-2021, 01:52 AM by Potato )

For the Birmingham vs Majingilane comparisons first of all we have to distinguish being strong and being successfull which are 2 different thinks which not necessary goes along each others. What it comes to who is stronger then that should be quite clear. Significantly past their prime Majings even with numericall dissadvantages were chassing prime Birminghams through their own territory. Also Birminghams ruled in very easy times while Majingilanes had hard competition through the years and the list of defeated by them coalitions through the years goes on and on. 

(10-22-2021, 11:11 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Bboys until this year (only 2 and out of prime) didn't lost inch of their territory against their will.

lol that is so untrue that I would line up that claims with such as "Mlovathis lost to MAjingilanes only cus Mr T was darted by evil rangers"

(10-22-2021, 11:11 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: You mentioned  how Majingilanes chased Matimbas (4 vs 2) but you didn't mentioned Nhenha and Tinyo vs 4 Nwaswitshakas?
Southern Avocas also chassed 4 N'was around so it seems it is not that huge of a deal. Also it is not like N'was were challanging Birminghams over their territory, they were just on "reconnaissance mission" further north and they were resonably over caution back then. It is kind of like bringing up Mala Mala raports of Mlovathis chassing around 5 Majings before the really challanged Mlovathis in June 2010 saying Mlovathis actually defeated 5 Majings. 

(10-22-2021, 11:11 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: People have that narrative that because Bboys didn't kill males in their territory takeovers, they are not fighters or "vicious" like Majingilanes for example who killed 2 males in their takeovers, which is funny, as they would definitely kill any male if they had a chance to do so, as it is in lions takeovers.. 


I do not think there is anyone who think like that. In fact both those both those coalitions killed 2 males each if we count only that which are 100% confirmed, not just speculated so I do not get where that argument even came from.



If were are comparing their success then:
1. Majings ruled in way more difficult times if we take it into accout.
2. Majings ruled longer.
3 Majings ruled more pride.
4. Size of the ruled territory should be around evenly matched most of the time tho after Avocas went after BBoys, their territory became quite thin. 
5. Amount of raised offspring - idk, but I think Majings should also there be ahead tho I did not made proper count.
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Poland Potato Offline
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Plains Camp


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Tr1x24 Online
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You guys cant compare Majingilanes, who where only 1 year in their reign down to 3, otherwise they where for almost 7 years 4 males strong and Bboys, who are now over 2 years down to 2 and past their prime.

So if we go by years and numbers in their territorial years, 

Majingilanes :

4 males for ~ 7 years
3 males for ~ 1 year

BBoys :

5 males for ~ half a year 
4 males for ~ 2.5 yrs
3 males for ~ 1.5 yrs
2 males for ~ 2 years and still counting.. 

Taking that in mind, that Bboys where only 3 yrs in their reign 4  and portion of that 5 males in numbers, compared to 7 yrs of 4 Majingilanes reign. 

Bboys didn't even had 50% of their territorial reign numbers that Majingilanes had and only controled 1 less pride and sired similar number of offspring as Majingilanes (maybe even more if new Kambula cubs reach adulthood). 

If thats not impressive, then idk what it is..

Bboys are definetly up there with Majingilanes and Mapogos as most successfull coalitions in past idk 15 yrs of Sabi Sands, and thats my opinion.
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Gijima Offline
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I don't want to spam this thread. Everyone's stated what's on their mind but I'll just close with this: 

@Potato I agree with pretty much everything you said. The discussion about offspring too is not always fair. In this generation of lions even lone males can easily raise up 20 cubs to adulthood. But in that generation, literally even male coalition struggled. So for the Majingilanes to do what they did.. that's what being exceptional is. It's doing stuff no one else in your generation could do. Those ~40 offspring are worth like a 100 in this generation lol.

@Calvitoo I didn't disrespect anyone? 

@Tr1x24 My "personal preference" is for the Birmingham males who I liked instantly from the first time I saw them. I felt real sadness at the loss of Nsuku and Mfumo. Do you know what I felt when I heard the Majingilanes died? Nothing. I had no emotional attachment to them. I respect the Majingilanes because they earned my respect whether I personally liked them or not.
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Thierry Offline
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Let's not get upset ...
I am not convinced that the success of a coalition can be measured by the number of battles it has waged, the size of its territory, or even the length of its reign.
In my opinion, the only determining criterion is her descent, the ability of this coalition to enable her sons and daughters to reach adulthood and give birth on their own, whatever the ways in which she did so.

The rest is essentially circumstantial.
If we take the example of a reputedly invincible coalition, the Majingilanes, it is important to distinguish between things.
The first Majin, isolated, was killed by the Mapogos.
He made the mistake of not staying with his brothers.
They also happened to be alone on occasion. They were fortunate not to be up against a bunch of rivals, just then. It is more a matter of circumstances, than of greatness.
To be able to estimate, if the Majingilanes were a coalition which really marked its time, it is necessary to consider the descendants which they left.
The number of rivals killed, that of conquered pride, of territory ceded with or without a fight and all these criteria of power that we tend to retain, it is very human, are rather incidental, it is our soap opera.
Let's not bicker over this.
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Canada Mdz123 Offline
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(10-23-2021, 02:25 AM)Gijima Wrote: I don't want to spam this thread. Everyone's stated what's on their mind but I'll just close with this: 

@Potato I agree with pretty much everything you said. The discussion about offspring too is not always fair. In this generation of lions even lone males can easily raise up 20 cubs to adulthood. But in that generation, literally even male coalition struggled. So for the Majingilanes to do what they did.. that's what being exceptional is. It's doing stuff no one else in your generation could do. Those ~40 offspring are worth like a 100 in this generation lol.

@Calvitoo I didn't disrespect anyone? 

@Tr1x24 My "personal preference" is for the Birmingham males who I liked instantly from the first time I saw them. I felt real sadness at the loss of Nsuku and Mfumo. Do you know what I felt when I heard the Majingilanes died? Nothing. I had no emotional attachment to them. I respect the Majingilanes because they earned my respect whether I personally liked them or not.

Yes I agree, this thread is not a place where everybody floods it with their opinions. Every coalition have their own legacy and should be respected in their own manners, even if they were not very successful. Mapogos, Majingilanes, WSM, BBoys and Matimbas were all successful coalitions, but we cant really compare them and say that one is above or equal to another, especially if they lived at different times.
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United States criollo2mil Offline
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I typically wouldn’t post about unofficial reports or spread these things, but since it was covered earlier and some of us are trying to gather more information regarding the validity of this killing, here is what was posted today on Twitter.  

I can’t speak about reliability of person or statement since I have no experience with this source

Attached Files Image(s)
   
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Tonpa Offline
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I've spoken to them before, I don't think they'd spread fake information, but I'll ask
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Tonpa Offline
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Silver eye talamati by legendsafaris.  Seems shes being separated from the pride more and more recently
*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Mdz123 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-23-2021, 05:21 PM by Timbavati Edit Reason: Link fixed )

Styx pride
Posted by Sabi Sabi 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVeIXLoMws/

[insta] tags are apparently still not working. @Timbavati please fix it, I would be thankful.

" target="_blank" class="post_link">
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