There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-22-2021, 03:47 AM)Tonpa Wrote: Hopefully we'll get more info tomorrow but yeah I'm assuming it was one of the sub-adults. I wonder if these two also killed ximungwe sub
These 2 where not in contact with Ximhungwes (for what we know) so i doubt that.
10-22-2021, 08:09 AM( This post was last modified: 10-22-2021, 12:19 PM by 1999gc8 )
I wonder if it was the PC males that attacked Auntie Othawa as well? She did receive quite a beating at the time. Also it's quite a shock when you hear about lions fighting in Sabi Sands and results in death. You rarely hear anything like that happening besides the Othawa male which was also a shock to everyone.
I dont think the two were in western sector when those two were attacked.
Ultimately, this is the real face of male lions. Not the noble kings that people make them out to be, but ruthless abusive men whose job is to keep out other ruthless abusive men.
I think we have been lulled in a false sense of peace as things were calm for a while. But now we are getting more coalitions again. We probably can expect more deaths in the upcomming years.
(10-22-2021, 09:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I dont think the two were in western sector when those two were attacked.
Ultimately, this is the real face of male lions. Not the noble kings that people make them out to be, but ruthless abusive men whose job is to keep out other ruthless abusive men.
I think we have been lulled in a false sense of peace as things were calm for a while. But now we are getting more coalitions again. We probably can expect more deaths in the upcomming years.
There are no ruthless abusive men here. There is no nobility either. There are animals, which act according to criteria which are specific to them, in a circumstantial or perhaps strategic way.
We just aren't always able to know or understand all of the interactions between lions, or how certain circumstances make them act one way over another.
Let us beware of any anthropomorphism.
Logical or not to us, killing a lioness or a subadult may make sense to them.
Lets wait and see under which circumstances that lioness got killed, lion never kill other lion without reason, but sometimes we cant comprehend that reason.
Calling them "abusive men" is wrong, thats judging from perspective of our (human) society, which is completely different, lions have their own society, which works all on strenght and dominance, and who has that (male lions), is the boss in the neigbourhood.
Also, humans (far more intelligent "animals" then lions) are doing the same thing for thousand of years, we kill each others for similar things. Sometimes for no reason at all, so we are worst then lions in that regard.
10-22-2021, 06:07 PM( This post was last modified: 10-22-2021, 06:10 PM by Duco Ndona )
Most likely the lioness refused to share a meal or have sex or something. Or they are planning to take over.
Its odd that we call them kings and queens etc without issue. But pointing out that a abusive husband is a far better comparison if one insists on anthropormising is suddenly going to far.
I think deep down the reasons humans kill are roughly the same. Ultimately we are just a bunch of shaved primates afteral.
(10-22-2021, 09:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we have been lulled in a false sense of peace as things were calm for a while.
That is natural turn of events. The peaceful times with little takeovers around creates boom in lion population. The higher population leads to competition. Competition reasults in death to some and force others to abandon arena. That leads to lower population, little takeovers as there are enough prides, territorys and prey for everyone which creates boom in the population and the cycle starts again so that we had quite peacefull last 4 years or so it doesn't mean such will least forever, but rather opposite - that thinks are about to change.
(10-22-2021, 06:52 PM)Mangw Wrote: When the BBoys were taking over prides they also killed a few lionesses if i remember correctly
Exactly, they've killed one of the Nkuhumas females on August 05/06 in 2015, they also killed one of the Styx females on 30 August 2015, One of the Tsalala sub-adults in December 07 2017 and counting some others. These are just a few things of what the Birmingham males did in their long reign. Without a doubt. A very succesfully and neat coalition of lions. They reminds me a lot to the Majingilane males...
(10-22-2021, 06:52 PM)Mangw Wrote: When the BBoys were taking over prides they also killed a few lionesses if i remember correctly
Exactly, they've killed one of the Nkuhumas females on August 05/06 in 2015, they also killed one of the Styx females on 30 August 2015, One of the Tsalala sub-adults in December 07 2017 and counting some others. These are just a few things of what the Birmingham males did in their long reign. Without a doubt. A very succesfully and neat coalition of lions. They reminds me a lot to the Majingilane males...
I won't put the kills of females and subadults on the list of "accomplishments" for any coalition--- in fact it's actually counter productive to kill females.
And not the start a debate but there is NO comparison to the Majingilanes who went toe-to-toe with some of the best coalitions of their day--- often equal in size and number-- and won. They were fighting even after they were "old lions" not giving up an inch of territory. They are in the league of their own.
Thank you for someone who mentioned this is just nature and a natural part of lion dynamics.
(10-22-2021, 06:52 PM)Mangw Wrote: When the BBoys were taking over prides they also killed a few lionesses if i remember correctly
Exactly, they've killed one of the Nkuhumas females on August 05/06 in 2015, they also killed one of the Styx females on 30 August 2015, One of the Tsalala sub-adults in December 07 2017 and counting some others. These are just a few things of what the Birmingham males did in their long reign. Without a doubt. A very succesfully and neat coalition of lions. They reminds me a lot to the Majingilane males...
I won't put the kills of females and subadults on the list of "accomplishments" for any coalition--- in fact it's actually counter productive to kill females.
And not the start a debate but there is NO comparison to the Majingilanes who went toe-to-toe with some of the best coalitions of their day--- often equal in size and number-- and won. They were fighting even after they were "old lions" not giving up an inch of territory. They are in the league of their own.
Thank you for someone who mentioned this is just nature and a natural part of lion dynamics.
Of course not my friend, I'm not counting the kills of the lionesses as accomplishments of the Birmingham males. If not, telling how aggressive and tough they were with the takeovers in their younger. I don't have any doubt that their accomplishments were their offspring and territory conquered, The Birmingham offspring is pretty alive in Sabi Sands, like the Nkuhuma, Torchwood, the deseased Styx male, the Nkuhumas females, Mangheni lioness, Kambula sub-adults members. They're in their sixth year as dominant males in Sabi Sands and I hope there are more ahead. They have fathered plenty of cubs, For which I'll dare to say, they're one of the most succesfully coalition of lions in recent times. The Avoca coalition are in the same way with the Nkuhuma, Talamati and perhaps with the Kambulas in a future.
(10-22-2021, 06:52 PM)Mangw Wrote: When the BBoys were taking over prides they also killed a few lionesses if i remember correctly
Exactly, they've killed one of the Nkuhumas females on August 05/06 in 2015, they also killed one of the Styx females on 30 August 2015, One of the Tsalala sub-adults in December 07 2017 and counting some others. These are just a few things of what the Birmingham males did in their long reign. Without a doubt. A very succesfully and neat coalition of lions. They reminds me a lot to the Majingilane males...
I won't put the kills of females and subadults on the list of "accomplishments" for any coalition--- in fact it's actually counter productive to kill females.
And not the start a debate but there is NO comparison to the Majingilanes who went toe-to-toe with some of the best coalitions of their day--- often equal in size and number-- and won. They were fighting even after they were "old lions" not giving up an inch of territory. They are in the league of their own.
Thank you for someone who mentioned this is just nature and a natural part of lion dynamics.
Of course not my friend, I'm not counting the kills of the lionesses as accomplishments of the Birmingham males. If not, telling how aggressive and tough they were with the takeovers in their younger. I don't have any doubt that their accomplishments were their offspring and territory conquered, The Birmingham offspring is pretty alive in Sabi Sands, like the Nkuhuma, Torchwood, the deseased Styx male, the Nkuhumas females, Mangheni lioness, Kambula sub-adults members. They're in their sixth year as dominant males in Sabi Sands and I hope there are more ahead. They have fathered plenty of cubs, For which I'll dare to say, they're one of the most succesfully coalition of lions in recent times. The Avoca coalition are in the same way with the Nkuhuma, Talamati and perhaps with the Kambulas in a future.
I hope the Birmingham legacy lives on for generations, and with the strong Kambula coalition I think it will.
My point about the Majingilanes, who I actually never really liked back in the day, is more about their dominance over other male lions and willingness to fight for their territory. Like the way they marched back to Londolozi to chase away Matimbas or their take-over of the west. They really remind me more of the Mjejanes. Not that that makes them better or worse.. just an observation.
But agree with all your points above. I think we are privileged to see many successful coalitions, each with their own unique style.
(10-22-2021, 06:52 PM)Mangw Wrote: When the BBoys were taking over prides they also killed a few lionesses if i remember correctly
Exactly, they've killed one of the Nkuhumas females on August 05/06 in 2015, they also killed one of the Styx females on 30 August 2015, One of the Tsalala sub-adults in December 07 2017 and counting some others. These are just a few things of what the Birmingham males did in their long reign. Without a doubt. A very succesfully and neat coalition of lions. They reminds me a lot to the Majingilane males...
I won't put the kills of females and subadults on the list of "accomplishments" for any coalition--- in fact it's actually counter productive to kill females.
And not the start a debate but there is NO comparison to the Majingilanes who went toe-to-toe with some of the best coalitions of their day--- often equal in size and number-- and won. They were fighting even after they were "old lions" not giving up an inch of territory. They are in the league of their own.
Thank you for someone who mentioned this is just nature and a natural part of lion dynamics.
Of course not my friend, I'm not counting the kills of the lionesses as accomplishments of the Birmingham males. If not, telling how aggressive and tough they were with the takeovers in their younger. I don't have any doubt that their accomplishments were their offspring and territory conquered, The Birmingham offspring is pretty alive in Sabi Sands, like the Nkuhuma, Torchwood, the deseased Styx male, the Nkuhumas females, Mangheni lioness, Kambula sub-adults members. They're in their sixth year as dominant males in Sabi Sands and I hope there are more ahead. They have fathered plenty of cubs, For which I'll dare to say, they're one of the most succesfully coalition of lions in recent times. The Avoca coalition are in the same way with the Nkuhuma, Talamati and perhaps with the Kambulas in a future.
I hope the Birmingham legacy lives on for generations, and with the strong Kambula coalition I think it will.
My point about the Majingilanes, who I actually never really liked back in the day, is more about their dominance over other male lions and willingness to fight for their territory. Like the way they marched back to Londolozi to chase away Matimbas or their take-over of the west. They really remind me more of the Mjejanes. Not that that makes them better or worse.. just an observation.
But agree with all your points above. I think we are privileged to see many successful coalitions, each with their own unique style.
Well said my friend, We're privileged to follow these lions on a daily basis via updates of rangers. It's absolutely incredible follow the journey of the lions. Since cubs to the adulthood.
