There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-15-2019, 11:28 PM( This post was last modified: 04-15-2019, 11:29 PM by GrizzlyClaws )
(04-15-2019, 10:22 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
04-20-2019, 12:58 PM( This post was last modified: 04-20-2019, 02:05 PM by Shadow )
(04-20-2019, 11:28 AM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 11:28 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 10:22 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
(04-20-2019, 02:24 PM)sanjay Wrote: No Lion Vs Tiger Debate on forum, If you do again, moderator will ban you.
Tagging Mods
@Rishi @peter @tigerluver @GrizzlyClaws
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
That didn´t answer to my question about American lion. Now you shared a different link about some finding in Russia. As far as I know, American lion (Panthera atrox) was living in different continent. So I guess, that you made just a mistake there earlier then?
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
That didn´t answer to my question about American lion. Now you shared a different link about some finding in Russia. As far as I know, American lion (Panthera atrox) was living in different continent. So I guess, that you made just a mistake there earlier then?
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
That didn´t answer to my question about American lion. Now you shared a different link about some finding in Russia. As far as I know, American lion (Panthera atrox) was living in different continent. So I guess, that you made just a mistake there earlier then?
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
That didn´t answer to my question about American lion. Now you shared a different link about some finding in Russia. As far as I know, American lion (Panthera atrox) was living in different continent. So I guess, that you made just a mistake there earlier then?
(04-15-2019, 09:55 PM)Sanju Wrote: What are "recent" weight estimates of other freak felids contestants American lion, Machairodus kabir, Amphimachairodus & Smilodon populator ... ?
For American "lion" Panthera atrox, the last one was the one from Christiansen & Harris (2009) with a weight of up to 351 kg, but there is one specimen that probably weighed more. No other new estimations appart from this.
For Machairodus and Amphimachairodus, the figures of over 400 kg seems to be very exagerated. The large skull of 415 is in fact less massive than that of a moder lions, so probably the real weight of this cats was less than those of the largest Pleistocene tigers and lions. Its bones are big, but not as massive as those of Smilodons.
For Smilodon populator, the last estimation came from Christiansen & Harris (2005) with weights of up to 400 kg for the largest ones. This is a short but very heavy and muscular cat.
The largest cat, with fossils available, is for the the Eurasian cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis. That skull of over 480 mm in length suggest a cat of about 400 kg. Certainly there are many fossils of the other lion-like cats and even none in the sample of giant Panthera atrox in America is larger than it. However, the sample of Ngandong tigers is so small, that I do believe that the single femur found that already represent an especimen of c.370 kg is suggesting us that bigger specimens do existed.
What do you think about this new formula of 2016 which gave an output of 486 kg for the 480 mm femur?
BTW, @tigerluver has already possessed a piece of fossil which is larger than the largest Ngandong tiger. And it is believed to be a much younger close relative of the Wanhsien tiger, also its skull could reach over 480 mm as well.
Could you tell me if you are trying to say, that in that study (link you shared) would be said, that American lions were 600 kg?
Quote from that study: "These methods were chosen rather than using bone circumferences as it has been noted that P. atrox has relatively robust bones for their length (Sorkin 2008), and using the felid-specific equations from Anyonge (1993) lead to estimates of maximal P. atrox masses potentially exceeding 600 kg"
There isn´t said in this study, that result would be 600 kg, but that they ruled out method giving estimations that high as far as I understood. But maybe I misunderstood what you try to tell or something?
That didn´t answer to my question about American lion. Now you shared a different link about some finding in Russia. As far as I know, American lion (Panthera atrox) was living in different continent. So I guess, that you made just a mistake there earlier then?
Then again if that is estimated to be 25% larger than lions today... everyone can make calculations like 200 kg x 1,25... if someone gets results close to 600 kg I can only congratulate
But it looks like to be, that 600 kg in that first link isn´t really based on anything, there was no source for that and no names, that who would have said so.
Also right after that mention about 600 kg was said, that it would be 1,5 times larger than modern lion. Even then, when calculating 200 kg x 1,5 I don´t get anywhere close to 600 kg. Of course that was just an article in media, not scientific study so maybe reporter(s) was not paying attention... But when in two different articles are estimations 1,25 - 1,5 times larger, that is naturally big, but not yet suggesting triple the weight of average (approximately) modern lion as far as I understand.
About #1076: Agree with you... 25% larger than the modern lions is a pretty vague assertion. But if this increase is affected into the three dimensions, (1,25)exp 3 = 1,95 (1,953125 exactly)
So with a normal male lion, 200 kilos, we get 390 kilos for the American lion. With a big lion, 220 kilos, 430 kilos...
But they also mention a 523 kilos estimation. With this method we get this weight from an actual 270-kilos lion. I don't know what to think about it and believe it's a little bit overrated.
A 600-kilos big cat ? The most biggest lion ever caught in wild weighed 313 kilos. From this exceptional specimen we get a 610-kilos American lion. We are allowed to dream...
(04-20-2019, 02:45 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: And I think large American Lions can up to 600 kg(Or more)
thank god I didn't hear 1000 kg+. Andrewsarchus, Simbakubwa kutokaafrika, Ferae or other Creodonts, Oxyaenids (Sarkastodon) and Hyaenodontids; Amphicyonids, Arctotherium angustidens, Ursus maritimus tyrannus would be crying to lose their titles.
04-21-2019, 05:14 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2019, 07:55 AM by GrizzlyClaws )
(04-20-2019, 02:25 PM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(04-20-2019, 02:24 PM)sanjay Wrote: No Lion Vs Tiger Debate on forum, If you do again, moderator will ban you.
Tagging Mods
@Rishi @peter @tigerluver @GrizzlyClaws
Please, be aware of the forum rules, and refrain to turn it into another lion vs tiger flamebait.
BTW, the inconsistency of the body mass calculation has been discussed over years, but we take the largest documented fossil records.
The largest Cave lion fossil record should reach the magnitude of 500 kg, and so far it is pretty clear that no American lion fossil or other later Cave lion fossil being larger than this.
(04-20-2019, 02:24 PM)sanjay Wrote: No Lion Vs Tiger Debate on forum, If you do again, moderator will ban you.
Tagging Mods
@Rishi @peter @tigerluver @GrizzlyClaws
Please, be aware of the forum rules, and refrain to turn it into another lion vs tiger flamebait.
BTW, the inconsistency of the body mass calculation has been discussed over years, but we take the largest documented fossil records.
The largest Cave lion fossil record should reach the magnitude of 500 kg, and so far it is pretty clear that no American lion fossil or other later Cave lion fossil being larger than this.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I add this, that when here is posted some claim about extreme measurements of some animal and then some link to back up that claim. Mininum is, that there would be then same information to be found from that link.
So if I say suddenly, that Asian elephant can be 8000 kg, I can´t back it up by link where can´t be found such information confirmed. And if I´m questioned, it doesn´t help if then share a link about African elephant.
So when some claim is about American lion, then sources used in reasoning to back up claim, should be concerning American lions. Not some findings from Europe which aren´t the same thing. Personally I look closer when here is some new poster and putting some figures looking like to be extreme, that what he/she is talking about.
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
thank god I didn't hear 1000 kg+. Andrewsarchus, Simbakubwa kutokaafrika, Ferae or other Creodonts, Oxyaenids (Sarkastodon) and Hyaenodontids; Amphicyonids, Arctotherium angustidens, Ursus maritimus tyrannus would be crying to lose their titles.
