There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-27-2019, 08:42 PM( This post was last modified: 04-28-2019, 04:21 AM by Rishi )
@Arctotherium Maybe the language barrier is being an issue, but you can't just ignore what others are saying.
Keep an open mind, especially in this kind of topic on which we have limited information. If one starts a discussion with already a rigid stand, then what's the point? He/she isn't able to gain information but often ends up twisting & cherry-picking data to suit his needs.
And remember that some random article or debate or Quora answer making a statement doesn't make it true. Like this example you gave:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Internet is full of misconceptions... but only, concrete readings, from credible sources, can be presented as proper evidence.
By looking at the substantive information of the available fossils, not the persistent misinformation from online.
Panthera atrox and the late Panthera spelaea were about the same league, and the earlier Cromerian Panthera spelaea was simply on another league of its own, but a giant tiger specimen collected by @tigerluver matched its size.
Panthera fossilis ~ 500 kg
Panthera tigris sp. ~ 500 kg
Panthera atrox ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera spelaea ~ 400 - 450 kg
Smilodon populator ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera tigris soloensis ~ 400 - 450 kg
I don´t even open some tapatalk or other forums, where fanboys of lions and tigers are having their "wars". If you have some good scientific source or article, just put direct link.
But does this mean, that you don´t believe to information you shared earlier about findings in Russia and that those are as big as claimed to be? Those articles about possibly biggest ever cave lions. I mean didn´t they have bigger bones, than American lion fossils?
Well, luckily we have hear some people, like tigerluver, guategojira, grizzlyclaws and some others who are quite familiar with the subject, I find it interesting to see what they might have to say about this. I have noticed, that they have used quite a lot of time to study prehistoric animals.
And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum
Well, your opinion is clear. I am sorry, but I can´t take what you say too seriously. I haven´t seen lately any studies backing up what you say. But I wait with interest, what people here who have more knowledge about this subject have to say about things you claim :)
American Lion is not 556 kg.Newest estimate of American Lion=523 kg.
You think 2009's study was true.
Just look at posting #1062 in this thread from guate. Quite different kind of information. If that helps you understand why your information isn´t taken just like so seriously. You write about average weights which are over estimations of biggest possible when looking other sources.
And you don´t even have any study to show as source for your information.
Are you asking from me what you are saying? Here is quote from your earlier posting:
"And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum"
So what do you think, do you say that American lion is in average 556 kg which you then changed to 523 kg?
But if you ask from me, yes, I understood it so that you say, that average weight of American lions was 523 kg.
This is quote from that link you shared about tar pits:
" Despite P. atrox’s large size (estimates range from 235 to 523 kg in males and 175 to 365 kg in females, the second largest carnivoran at La Brea second only to the short-faced bear Arctodus simus) [9,43] and status as a conspecific of P. leo, its carcass utilization was evidently more like that of the cheetah."
There it is, estimates range between 235 to 523 kg. And you write, that American lion is 523 kg, looks like cherry picking to me.
But to keep this simple I ask two things from you. 1. What do you think, that was average weight of American lion? 2. What do you think, that was maximum weight of it?
Answer to those and then here shouldn´t be misunderstandings if you feel, that now there are some.
I just saying A thing's average weight is 470 kg is maximum is 700 kg
(04-27-2019, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: By looking at the substantive information of the available fossils, not the persistent misinformation from online.
Panthera atrox and the late Panthera spelaea were about the same league, and the earlier Cromerian Panthera spelaea was simply on another league of its own, but a giant tiger specimen collected by @tigerluver matched its size.
Panthera fossilis ~ 500 kg
Panthera tigris sp. ~ 500 kg
Panthera atrox ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera spelaea ~ 400 - 450 kg
Smilodon populator ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera tigris soloensis ~ 400 - 450 kg
(04-27-2019, 12:19 PM)Shadow Wrote: I don´t even open some tapatalk or other forums, where fanboys of lions and tigers are having their "wars". If you have some good scientific source or article, just put direct link.
But does this mean, that you don´t believe to information you shared earlier about findings in Russia and that those are as big as claimed to be? Those articles about possibly biggest ever cave lions. I mean didn´t they have bigger bones, than American lion fossils?
Well, luckily we have hear some people, like tigerluver, guategojira, grizzlyclaws and some others who are quite familiar with the subject, I find it interesting to see what they might have to say about this. I have noticed, that they have used quite a lot of time to study prehistoric animals.
And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum
Well, your opinion is clear. I am sorry, but I can´t take what you say too seriously. I haven´t seen lately any studies backing up what you say. But I wait with interest, what people here who have more knowledge about this subject have to say about things you claim :)
American Lion is not 556 kg.Newest estimate of American Lion=523 kg.
You think 2009's study was true.
Just look at posting #1062 in this thread from guate. Quite different kind of information. If that helps you understand why your information isn´t taken just like so seriously. You write about average weights which are over estimations of biggest possible when looking other sources.
And you don´t even have any study to show as source for your information.
Are you asking from me what you are saying? Here is quote from your earlier posting:
"And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum"
So what do you think, do you say that American lion is in average 556 kg which you then changed to 523 kg?
But if you ask from me, yes, I understood it so that you say, that average weight of American lions was 523 kg.
This is quote from that link you shared about tar pits:
" Despite P. atrox’s large size (estimates range from 235 to 523 kg in males and 175 to 365 kg in females, the second largest carnivoran at La Brea second only to the short-faced bear Arctodus simus) [9,43] and status as a conspecific of P. leo, its carcass utilization was evidently more like that of the cheetah."
There it is, estimates range between 235 to 523 kg. And you write, that American lion is 523 kg, looks like cherry picking to me.
But to keep this simple I ask two things from you. 1. What do you think, that was average weight of American lion? 2. What do you think, that was maximum weight of it?
Answer to those and then here shouldn´t be misunderstandings if you feel, that now there are some.
I just saying A thing's average weight is 470 kg is maximum is 700 kg
What you say changes in every posting. Are you a troll? Starts to look like it.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Sanju
Well, luckily we have hear some people, like tigerluver, guategojira, grizzlyclaws and some others who are quite familiar with the subject, I find it interesting to see what they might have to say about this. I have noticed, that they have used quite a lot of time to study prehistoric animals.
And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum
Well, your opinion is clear. I am sorry, but I can´t take what you say too seriously. I haven´t seen lately any studies backing up what you say. But I wait with interest, what people here who have more knowledge about this subject have to say about things you claim :)
American Lion is not 556 kg.Newest estimate of American Lion=523 kg.
You think 2009's study was true.
Just look at posting #1062 in this thread from guate. Quite different kind of information. If that helps you understand why your information isn´t taken just like so seriously. You write about average weights which are over estimations of biggest possible when looking other sources.
And you don´t even have any study to show as source for your information.
Are you asking from me what you are saying? Here is quote from your earlier posting:
"And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum"
So what do you think, do you say that American lion is in average 556 kg which you then changed to 523 kg?
But if you ask from me, yes, I understood it so that you say, that average weight of American lions was 523 kg.
This is quote from that link you shared about tar pits:
" Despite P. atrox’s large size (estimates range from 235 to 523 kg in males and 175 to 365 kg in females, the second largest carnivoran at La Brea second only to the short-faced bear Arctodus simus) [9,43] and status as a conspecific of P. leo, its carcass utilization was evidently more like that of the cheetah."
There it is, estimates range between 235 to 523 kg. And you write, that American lion is 523 kg, looks like cherry picking to me.
But to keep this simple I ask two things from you. 1. What do you think, that was average weight of American lion? 2. What do you think, that was maximum weight of it?
Answer to those and then here shouldn´t be misunderstandings if you feel, that now there are some.
I just saying A thing's average weight is 470 kg is maximum is 700 kg
What you say changes in every posting. Are you a troll? Starts to look like it.
I will not even try to tell you what I said.If I try to explain this,you keep saying this.
(04-27-2019, 02:42 PM)Shadow Wrote: Well, luckily we have hear some people, like tigerluver, guategojira, grizzlyclaws and some others who are quite familiar with the subject, I find it interesting to see what they might have to say about this. I have noticed, that they have used quite a lot of time to study prehistoric animals.
And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum
Well, your opinion is clear. I am sorry, but I can´t take what you say too seriously. I haven´t seen lately any studies backing up what you say. But I wait with interest, what people here who have more knowledge about this subject have to say about things you claim :)
American Lion is not 556 kg.Newest estimate of American Lion=523 kg.
You think 2009's study was true.
Just look at posting #1062 in this thread from guate. Quite different kind of information. If that helps you understand why your information isn´t taken just like so seriously. You write about average weights which are over estimations of biggest possible when looking other sources.
And you don´t even have any study to show as source for your information.
Are you asking from me what you are saying? Here is quote from your earlier posting:
"And I say something.Any cat can kill Equus Giganteus?Maybe American Lion(Power and size)
And American Lion's size is like a bullshit.
470 kg average=680 kg maximum
556 kg average=769 kg maximum"
So what do you think, do you say that American lion is in average 556 kg which you then changed to 523 kg?
But if you ask from me, yes, I understood it so that you say, that average weight of American lions was 523 kg.
This is quote from that link you shared about tar pits:
" Despite P. atrox’s large size (estimates range from 235 to 523 kg in males and 175 to 365 kg in females, the second largest carnivoran at La Brea second only to the short-faced bear Arctodus simus) [9,43] and status as a conspecific of P. leo, its carcass utilization was evidently more like that of the cheetah."
There it is, estimates range between 235 to 523 kg. And you write, that American lion is 523 kg, looks like cherry picking to me.
But to keep this simple I ask two things from you. 1. What do you think, that was average weight of American lion? 2. What do you think, that was maximum weight of it?
Answer to those and then here shouldn´t be misunderstandings if you feel, that now there are some.
I just saying A thing's average weight is 470 kg is maximum is 700 kg
What you say changes in every posting. Are you a troll? Starts to look like it.
I will not even try to tell you what I said.If I try to explain this,you keep saying this.
When you decide what weight is what you want to claim here it will be interesting to see. Now here have been 600, 556, then 523 and then I am not sure if now 470 for American lion from you? I mean it starts to be difficult to follow, when every time you write something is changed. I wonder if you have at home wheel of fortune with some weights there and you roll it every time you write to give random figures?
And yes, this can sound rude, but really... I recommend, that you use time with reading and studying more subject before you start to make claims, not being so hasty to write just something without any thinking first.
04-29-2019, 11:34 PM( This post was last modified: 04-29-2019, 11:52 PM by GrizzlyClaws )
(04-29-2019, 11:29 AM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: By looking at the substantive information of the available fossils, not the persistent misinformation from online.
Panthera atrox and the late Panthera spelaea were about the same league, and the earlier Cromerian Panthera spelaea was simply on another league of its own, but a giant tiger specimen collected by @tigerluver matched its size.
Panthera fossilis ~ 500 kg
Panthera tigris sp. ~ 500 kg
Panthera atrox ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera spelaea ~ 400 - 450 kg
Smilodon populator ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera tigris soloensis ~ 400 - 450 kg
(04-27-2019, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: By looking at the substantive information of the available fossils, not the persistent misinformation from online.
Panthera atrox and the late Panthera spelaea were about the same league, and the earlier Cromerian Panthera spelaea was simply on another league of its own, but a giant tiger specimen collected by @tigerluver matched its size.
Panthera fossilis ~ 500 kg
Panthera tigris sp. ~ 500 kg
Panthera atrox ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera spelaea ~ 400 - 450 kg
Smilodon populator ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera tigris soloensis ~ 400 - 450 kg
(04-27-2019, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: By looking at the substantive information of the available fossils, not the persistent misinformation from online.
Panthera atrox and the late Panthera spelaea were about the same league, and the earlier Cromerian Panthera spelaea was simply on another league of its own, but a giant tiger specimen collected by @tigerluver matched its size.
Panthera fossilis ~ 500 kg
Panthera tigris sp. ~ 500 kg
Panthera atrox ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera spelaea ~ 400 - 450 kg
Smilodon populator ~ 400 - 450 kg
Panthera tigris soloensis ~ 400 - 450 kg
05-01-2019, 01:13 AM( This post was last modified: 05-01-2019, 01:51 AM by Sanju )
(05-01-2019, 12:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It was the earliest form of the Sunda tiger
earliest is Panthera tigris trinilensis. right? dating from about 1.2 million years ago that was found at the locality of Trinil, Java, Indonesia. oxygnatha is intermdiate of solensis and trinil.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Trinil tiger was the oldest form of a tiger that lived 1.66 million years ago in Indonesia, particularly in Java and Trinil, although according to some zoologists, it could be the ancestor of all known Indonesian subspecies. Perhaps, East Asia was a center of the origin of Pantherinae. The oldest tiger fossils found in the Early Pleistocene Javanese show that about two million years ago, tigers were already quite common in East Asia. However, the glacial and interglacial climatic variations and other geological events may have caused repeated geographic changes in the area.
Brongersma, Leo (1937). "Notes on fossil and prehistoric remains of "Felidae" from Java and Sumatra"; Eugène Dubois (1908). "Das geologische Alter der Kendengoder Trinil-Fauna"
However there were doubts that the fossil could belong to the Trinil tiger because it was too big to belong to it. But now it is thought that it might have been a bit smaller than the Bengal tigers and similar to the Indochinese tiger's size. Food competition among large carnivores is a major incentive to increase body weight, so that this Pleistocene subspecies's weight was slightly less than today's Bengal tigers and weighed about 150 kg.
Leo Daniel Brongersma (1935). "Notes on some recent and fossil cats, chiefly from the Malay Archipelago"; Helmut Hemmer (1971). "Fossil mammals of Java. II. Zur Fossilgeschichte des Tigers (Panthera tigris (L.)) in Java".
(05-01-2019, 12:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It was the earliest form of the Sunda tiger
earliest is Panthera tigris trinilensis. right? dating from about 1.2 million years ago that was found at the locality of Trinil, Java, Indonesia. oxygnatha is intermdiate of solenensis and trinil.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The Trinil tiger was the oldest form of a tiger that lived 1.66 million years ago in Indonesia, particularly in Java and Trinil, although according to some zoologists, it could be the ancestor of all known Indonesian subspecies. Perhaps, East Asia was a center of the origin of Pantherinae. The oldest tiger fossils found in the Early Pleistocene Javanese show that about two million years ago, tigers were already quite common in East Asia. However, the glacial and interglacial climatic variations and other geological events may have caused repeated geographic changes in the area.
Brongersma, Leo (1937). "Notes on fossil and prehistoric remains of "Felidae" from Java and Sumatra"; Eugène Dubois (1908). "Das geologische Alter der Kendengoder Trinil-Fauna"
However there were doubts that the fossil could belong to the Trinil tiger because it was too big to belong to it. But now it is thought that it might have been a bit smaller than the Bengal tigers and similar to the Indochinese tiger's size. Food competition among large carnivores is a major incentive to increase body weight, so that this Pleistocene subspecies's weight was slightly less than today's Bengal tigers and weighed about 150 kg.
Leo Daniel Brongersma (1935). "Notes on some recent and fossil cats, chiefly from the Malay Archipelago"; Helmut Hemmer (1971). "Fossil mammals of Java. II. Zur Fossilgeschichte des Tigers (Panthera tigris (L.)) in Java".
In my reminiscent memory, wasn't Oxygnatha older than Trinilensis? Since Trinilensis was the immediate predecessor of Soloensis.
05-01-2019, 01:45 AM( This post was last modified: 05-01-2019, 01:50 AM by Sanju )
(05-01-2019, 01:35 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: In my reminiscent memory, wasn't Oxygnatha older than Trinilensis? Since Trinilensis was the immediate predecessor of Soloensis.
*This image is copyright of its original author
This map shows differently.
But other wise, Panthera tigris oxygnatha is considered the oldest form, which has evolved to Panthera tigris trinilensis and Panthera tigris solensis to become the Java Tiger (Panthera tigris sondaica)
Peter Boomgaard , Frontiers of Fear: Tigers and People in the Malay World
Paul CH Albers et John de Vos , Through Eugène Dubois' Eyes: Stills of a Turbulent Life , Brill, 2010
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
dating from about 1.2 million years ago that was found at the locality of Trinil, Java, Indonesia. oxygnatha is intermdiate of solensis and trinil.
