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Crocodile and Big cats Interaction
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Crocodile and Big cats Interaction
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 (07-07-2019, 01:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(10-18-2018, 07:03 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:30 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail. This case was here already in some other thread, even though article of Telegraph say, that it was saltwater crocodile and tiger was male. Story of Telegraph is more realistic for me, because I don´t believe a moment for some fight over night. Tiger and crocodile fighting for hours and hours.... that is so unnatural thing to imagine, that impossible to take seriously. But maybe a fierce battle of 10-30 minutes max. and then dead tiger there, that seems to be clear that tiger was killed. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8695915/Fifteen-foot-Bengali-crocodile-claims-king-of-jungle-title-from-tiger.html Then again one thing. When comparing a 14-15 feet and 20 feet crocodiles it is good to remember, that weight of crocodile increases a lot, when it gets bigger. In water that means, that tiger or lion is like a rag doll if croc gets a good bite and starts to roll. Of course already a 14-15 feet crocodile is very dangerous in water, but those 20 feet crocs are in their own class, when side by side with smaller ones. (07-07-2019, 02:13 PM)Shadow Wrote:(07-07-2019, 01:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(10-18-2018, 07:03 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:30 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail. There is nevertheless an anomaly in the report by The Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne...tiger.html). The Telegraph, which reported the story on the 11th of August, 2011, in New Delhi (over 1,300 km or 807.8 miles from the Bengali Sundarbans) says that the tiger was male, whereas the local source (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home...548432.cms), which reported the story on the 10th of August in the Bengali city of Kolkata (the city's centre being less than 70 km or 30.4 miles from the nearest point of the Sundarbans), reported that a beat officer said that the tiger's genitals, besides one of its hind legs, were missing. How did The Telegraph in the far away city of ND come to the conclusion that the tiger was male, when a report from within the Bengali region, which contains the Sundarbans, said that the tiger's genitals were missing? Map of India with the West Bengali administrative city of Kolkata marked, with the Sundarbans being the green area nearby: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kolkat...d88.363895 (07-08-2019, 02:22 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(07-07-2019, 02:13 PM)Shadow Wrote:(07-07-2019, 01:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(10-18-2018, 07:03 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:30 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail. As I said, article of Telegraph is more down to earth and realistic. Crocodile and tiger fighting in river over night for hours just isn´t something what could be taken seriously. Telegraph is talking about information from local officials, that is easy to get by calling or by email. I don´t think, that local media had either reporter visiting and personally interviewing anyone, it was quite short article. Usually article, which is written later has better information. It is often when something odd happens, that first articles are hasty and giving just something, half true, half assumptions. With time officials give more accurate information. Anyway, both articles can be inaccurate in some ways. But because I don´t believe in fights of two predators lasting hours, I can´t take too seriously information of Indian Times in this case. Was it a male or female tiger, who knows. But that big crocodile of course is capable to kill a tiger, no matter if male or female if getting a good bite and starts to roll. That´s why I believe, that some tiger was killed by a crocodile, but details aren´t quite clear. (07-08-2019, 02:22 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(07-07-2019, 02:13 PM)Shadow Wrote:(07-07-2019, 01:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(10-18-2018, 07:03 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:30 PM)chaos Wrote:(10-17-2018, 06:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail. I looked just for curiosity what other articles told about this case. Here is one interesting quote: "Initial suspicions that the killing may have been the handiwork of poachers were belied by the fact that the usual organs that poachers take away – genitalia, teeth, etc. were found intact." Word tigress isn´t used there: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/crocodile-kills-tiger-in-sunderbans-island/article2340792.ece Then Indian Express, quote: "In a rare incident of conflict between animals in Sunderbans Tiger Reserve, a crocodile has killed and partly devoured a fully grown Royal Bengal Tiger." Another quote: "A hind-leg of the tiger has been taken away and femur of the other hind-leg which is the largest bone of the body is missing. The tail and the genitals also seem to have been eaten away," said the STR field director." So here also no tigress mentioned, but it seems to be quite unclear, that what is situation with genitalia (I mean all articles, here again said, that eaten :) Source: http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/in-sunderbans-crocodile-devours-tiger/829699/ BUT Here is then one source and whole story, which I think that can be considered as reliable as it can be. And it shows also, that all articles before were more or less inaccurate  It was a female tiger, saltwater crocodile about 14 feet long and there has been some fight, but nothing indicates that it would have been something extraordinary over night. Quote: "Occurrence of crocodile attack On 9 August 2011 a tigress was killed by an estuarine crocodile in STR. The carcass of the tiger was found on the mudflats of Dobanki Khal (Creeks) near Dodanki Camp (21°59’49’’ North latitude and 88°45’32.7’ East longitude), approximately 250-300 m away on the opposite side of the camp at Pirkhali-5 compartment under SWLS Range, on the way to Sajnekhali. Dobanki khal is a perennial habitat of estuarine crocodile and a few large-sized crocodiles are often seen during patrolling by staff and officers. The Dobanki area is also the territory of three tigers and they frequently move from one island to other by swimming like the other tigers of the Sundarbans. A few months earlier there was an incident of a spotted deer killed by a crocodile at almost the same location as the tiger kill, which was recorded on video by a range officer, SWLS Range. It is interesting to note that on that occasion a tiger was crossing the river just 60-70 m away. The tiger carcass was lying in a lateral recumbent position on the small mudflat of Dobanki khal and a very large estuarine crocodile approximately 14 feet in length was moving around about 150 m away from the spot, repeatedly trying to reach his victim, but forest staff prevented it from doing so. Signs of movement of crocodile on the site of the carcass of tiger were also noticed. Decomposition had not started, which clearly indicated that the incident happened only a few hours before. Post mortem During the post mortem examination of the carcass conducted at Dobanki Camp it was revealed (Anon, 2011a) that the carcass was of a female tiger approximately 5-6 years old. From the external appearance it was observed that the rigor mortis stage of the carcass was over so time of death was estimated to be 24-28 hours before post mortem, i.e., on the afternoon of 8 August 2011. It was observed that all 4 canines were intact, no abnormal discharges from the nasal opening or ear orifice were detected. Length of the body from nose tip to lumbar vertebra was 108 cm; height was 84 cm. On outside of the body several wounds were found which appeared to be conical in shape. Twenty-two scattered, elliptical, deep piercing wounds on the body were observed on the abdomen, right dorsal foreleg, dorsal thoracic region and dorsal posterior neck region. The body beyond the second lumbar vertebra was totally torn off and absent except for the dislocated femur up to the paw of the left hind leg which was attached to the body by a flap of skin. Both the kidneys and lungs were found to be intact and there was a large torn vent in the diaphragm. All visceral organs like heart, trachea, oesophagus were in normal condition; the pleural cavity was completely destroyed. In the pleural cavity blood-tinged fluid was observed. The morphology of the liver was normal with only a few patchy whitish marks observed. Gall bladder and ducts were identified in the carcass. Conclusion Considering all observations it was concluded that the death of the tigress was due to a crocodile attack. The evidence of the mode of attack indicated that while she was swimming across the river a crocodile attacked her hind portion and killed her by repeated jerking and drowning. There were signs that the tigress tried to fight back but could not save itself. This is the first instance of a Sundarban tiger being preyed on and killed by an estuarine crocodile (C. porosus) in Sundarban Tiger Reserve. Acknowledgements The author would like to thanks Dr. S. Mukherjee, Field Director, Sundarban Tiger Reserve, for providing facilities and support. He is also grateful to Dr. A.K. Raha, Principal Chief Conservator of Forests (Head of Forest Force), West Bengal, Sri S.B.Mandal, Principal Chief Conservator of Forests and Chief Wild Life Warden, West Bengal and Sri P. Vyas, Director, Sundarban Biosphere Reserve, West Bengal for their constant encouragement. Source: http://www.fao.org/3/a-am998e.pdf Quote is from page 3 Case closed, I think :) (10-13-2018, 09:04 AM)Spalea Wrote:(09-23-2018, 11:44 AM)parvez Wrote: Experts i contacted told me that they always see crocodiles killed by tigers. That is like a common happening. That itself speaks.... Just to put loose ends together, there have been 4 articles about one case and now in my posting #64 there is a good description about that case from 2011. Sometimes old issues come again to discussion. This one was now one of those where some new information could be found, which haven´t been here before. At least not in this thread. This same case has been in discussion in some other thread too lately, but in that was only that Telegraph article if I remember right. But now it should be clear, that in August 2011 there was one tigress killed by saltwater crocodile at Sundarban. 
@epaiva pointed me about this video shared on FB, I uploaded it for our member on our YouTube Channel.
Please do subscribe to our channel and send your videos, so that we can share with WildFact community through Wildfact channel Subscribe at: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChER5zv...Lchh8mdYHQ  (07-10-2019, 07:48 AM)sanjay Wrote: @epaiva pointed me about this video shared on FB, I uploaded it for our member on our YouTube Channel.That’s not a Jaguar. Ocelot maybe look how small it is next to the guy’s boot and if it’s a jaguar it’s barely bigger than a cub (07-10-2019, 02:27 PM)sanjay Wrote: I have also my doubts. I don´t see any reason why it wouldn´t be a jaguar. Even though very young or small female. Has anyone looked what kind of discussion there is in FB about this? Often person who uploads gives some information too. Not all jaguars are big after all and cubs of any species are always in great danger. When this comes from hint of @epaiva I think, that it is good to check more before saying, that no jaguar. He happens to live in country with jaguars living in there. 
Large Black Caiman are extremely rare these days but they're known maneaters so I see no reason why they couldn't prey on a Jaguar although they dont cross paths often if at all.
I'll ask Paulo about it, Paulo also thinks the image of the 2 jags killing the black caiman was set up by humans which they used to do often to get shots. But the cat doesn't quite look like a Jag to me either, I think the canines seem too small and narrow but it's hard to tell on a cell phone.
You missed it Shadow,
Saw the video description that I put, this is not epaiva video, he referred me to this video from someone else page First question is why the animal is not torn or ripped by caiman ? I doubt a ciman can sallow big jaguar like python without tearing him into parts. (07-10-2019, 03:51 PM)sanjay Wrote: You missed it Shadow, I understood, that epaiva gave you hint about this video(?). That is what I meant, that when he gives hint about something he has seen and doesn´t say that he has doubts(?), then we have already one person who knows jaguars maybe better than average poster. Then again this animal, whatever it is, is quite small. So it could be a jaguar cub. What @Pckts mentioned about canines is one thing which I also looked a bit. Interesting case and hopefully can be cleared. (07-10-2019, 03:51 PM)sanjay Wrote: You missed it Shadow,There is no way a caiman can swallow a Jaguar whole without tearing it into bits. Looks like a smaller felid to me perhaps a margay or ocelot (07-10-2019, 04:06 PM)Sammyfrosh Wrote:(07-10-2019, 03:51 PM)sanjay Wrote: You missed it Shadow,There is no way a caiman can swallow a Jaguar whole without tearing it into bits. Looks like a smaller felid to me perhaps a margay or ocelot Check this before you make too big conclusions :) From 1:40 forward. Jaguar cub is quite comparable what comes to size. |
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