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Crocodile and Big cats Interaction

Finland Shadow Offline
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#31
( This post was last modified: 10-17-2018, 06:54 PM by Shadow Edit Reason: Lalong corrected to Lolong )

I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

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United States chaos Offline
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(10-17-2018, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

Crocs of 3+ meters are more than any big cat can handle. On land, a very difficult task, in the water - a mismatch.
Just my opinion.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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Here another one. Photo from article about 14 foot long and 900 lbs alligator.

https://theatozshow.wordpress.com/2011/0...alligator/

And of course after I did this picture, I noticed, that in some other articles this alligator was told to be "only" 880 lbs and 13 feet 8 inches. Then again it was told, that biggest alligator in records from Texas was 14 feet 4 inches, so I guess, that this photo where alligator is scaled to 14 feet and tiger from nose to back (without tail) a little bit over 6 feet is quite ok to give some idea about sizes. Yes, I know perfectly well, that alligators and tigers live in different areas, but then again I was too lazy to search similar kind of photo about a croc, which would be confirmed to be same size.

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United States Pckts Offline
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(10-17-2018, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

Nice work @Shadow 
Another thing to note is that Lolong when alive would be far more dense and robust compared to a taxidermy.

@parvez 
I will not try to judge accurately the size of a mugger or any croc based off a video with little to scale from.
All I can go off of is actual verified sizes, and a mugger at "The average size of adult mugger crocodiles in ManghopirPakistan was cited as 2.89 m (9 ft 6 in), with an estimated average weight of around 100 kg (220 lb).[13] However, some muggers of around 3 m (9 ft 10 in) may weigh 195 kg (430 lb), as was one male caught by pakistani forestry, wildlife and fisheries department" isn't going to be comparable to a Saltie that is verified to be double the length and at 5x's the weight. 

A couple of interesting facts on Salties size

-If detached from the body, the head of a very large male crocodile can reportedly weigh over 200 kg (440 lb) alone, including the large muscles and tendons at the base of the skull that lend the crocodile its massive biting strength. (That's as heavy as a 9'10'' mugger)

-The weight of a crocodile increases approximately cubically as length increases (see square-cube law).[38] This explains why individuals at 6 m (19 ft 8 in) can weigh more than twice that of individuals at 5 m (16 ft).[26] In crocodiles, linear growth eventually decreases and they start getting bulkier at a certain point.[39] Dominant males also tend to outweigh others, as they maintain prime territories with access to better, more abundant prey. (Already being a more robust individual, they continue to put on mass while their growth slows)


My opinion is that a Tiger wouldn't want to have to fight off a large Mugger in the water, but it could do so, the same way you see Male Lions fight off smaller Nile Crocs in the water sometimes, but if a large Saltie wanted to prey on a Lion/Tiger in the water, there is little any cat could do about that. On land, I still doubt a cat could finish off a large Croc as well, the cat could do some damage but eventually that Croc will drag that Cat right into the water and the cat will have let go long before that happens. 
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-17-2018, 10:26 PM by Shadow Edit Reason: typos )

(10-17-2018, 08:47 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-17-2018, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

Nice work @Shadow 
Another thing to note is that Lolong when alive would be far more dense and robust compared to a taxidermy.

@parvez 
I will not try to judge accurately the size of a mugger or any croc based off a video with little to scale from.
All I can go off of is actual verified sizes, and a mugger at "The average size of adult mugger crocodiles in ManghopirPakistan was cited as 2.89 m (9 ft 6 in), with an estimated average weight of around 100 kg (220 lb).[13] However, some muggers of around 3 m (9 ft 10 in) may weigh 195 kg (430 lb), as was one male caught by pakistani forestry, wildlife and fisheries department" isn't going to be comparable to a Saltie that is verified to be double the length and at 5x's the weight. 

A couple of interesting facts on Salties size

-If detached from the body, the head of a very large male crocodile can reportedly weigh over 200 kg (440 lb) alone, including the large muscles and tendons at the base of the skull that lend the crocodile its massive biting strength. (That's as heavy as a 9'10'' mugger)

-The weight of a crocodile increases approximately cubically as length increases (see square-cube law).[38] This explains why individuals at 6 m (19 ft 8 in) can weigh more than twice that of individuals at 5 m (16 ft).[26] In crocodiles, linear growth eventually decreases and they start getting bulkier at a certain point.[39] Dominant males also tend to outweigh others, as they maintain prime territories with access to better, more abundant prey. (Already being a more robust individual, they continue to put on mass while their growth slows)


My opinion is that a Tiger wouldn't want to have to fight off a large Mugger in the water, but it could do so, the same way you see Male Lions fight off smaller Nile Crocs in the water sometimes, but if a large Saltie wanted to prey on a Lion/Tiger in the water, there is little any cat could do about that. On land, I still doubt a cat could finish off a large Croc as well, the cat could do some damage but eventually that Croc will drag that Cat right into the water and the cat will have let go long before that happens. 
I would say that much to this issue, that on land it is hard to see too much chances for a croc unless it is very lucky and is able to hit with tail. Big cats are far more agile on dry land and should be able to get relatively easy on the back of the crocodile, when only chance of croc is try to escape to the water and get rid of tiger/lion/whaever big cat there is after it. It can´t fight in a way like lion would fight against tiger or tiger against lion, or like a bear for instance to any other predator. Tigers, lions and bears can all move fast and have teeth and claws to use. Crocodile on dry land is pretty much in trouble with any predator and even though they are surprisingly fast in some occasions, still it would be unfair to compare crocs with big cats there on land. One is in natural enviroment to do everything, other one not.

So in dry land croc needs to be a big one even to be able to escape, especially if big cat has experience. My personal opinion is, that even 3-4 meters long croc is quite possible for a big cat to kill if enough time and croc is far from water from some reason. A little bit same thing as with lions and hippos. Enough time with a hippo unable to find deep enough water and suddenly lion´s chances grow a lot. I find croc even more vulnerable, because it doesn´t have same kind of weight advantage even though it is in some ways faster in movement when struggling. 

In water it is different game of course. But after I saw one video where croc attacked a swimming lion making bite to the torso of lion, I started to think a little bit, that is biting force of crocodile in a way overrated. I mean, that it got lion under water, but lion was immediately able to struggle off and escape looking unharmed. Many times biting force seems to be measured in situation, when animal has something in mouth and jaws are almost shut. But croc has a big and long.... mouth, jaws, whatever is the word, I guess that everyone gets it. So when it has to open it really wide, is that bite actually so strong there? if it doesn´t get a good grip from leg for instance and able to bite hard, it looks like bigger animals have a good chance to struggle free.

I think, that even in water croc has best chances, when pretty good size difference and deep water. In water where big cats for instance reach bottom with hind legs, they are able to give back and also are surprisingly strong. Tail of croc, which on dry land is a formidable threat is again slower in water, so croc would need to get a strong bite and then start that whirling around to drown opponent. And it looks like to be not an easy task with tigers and lions. Maybe most times in water so, that both just disperse. Unless croc is really a big one.

I haven´t been interested about this topic, but after I looked some videos and thought a little bit, this kind of toughts came up. Especially on dry land when big cat gets itself on back of croc, croc is pretty much unable to fight back, it should roll over there to get rid of tiger for instance, but for some reason not doing that. And that is one thing to remember when looking at animals fighting. They do it as they do, not like we would like to or advice them to do.
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India brotherbear Offline
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Pckts probably saw the documentary ( I will guess ) where a huge ( possibly one-ton ) crocodile on dry land displaced an entire pride of lions from a carcass without a fight. The documentary is not too old. To read about a big croc and to actually see one is two entirely different matters. I saw that 13-foot alligator in Florida ( it had been measured ) and in real life, up close, it is a living monster! I can hardly imagine a 20-foot-long crocodile. 
Perhaps what a tiger could possibly do and what he would do are two different realities.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(10-17-2018, 10:04 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Pckts probably saw the documentary ( I will guess ) where a huge ( possibly one-ton ) crocodile on dry land displaced an entire pride of lions from a carcass without a fight. The documentary is not too old. To read about a big croc and to actually see one is two entirely different matters. I saw that 13-foot alligator in Florida ( it had been measured ) and in real life, up close, it is a living monster! I can hardly imagine a 20-foot-long crocodile. 
Perhaps what a tiger could possibly do and what he would do are two different realities.

Yes, most probably tiger would watch from aside. Then again I guess, that you have seen that video about a housecat which made... was it one or two alligators to escape :) Hard to say how they would act, but when so big croc and tiger, it is difficult to see a scenario where they would actually fight. Another one would for sure back off. Most probably tiger, but who knows, I wouldn´t be totally surprised if it would go in another way. I would be really surprised only if they would actually start a fight. After all in those occasions situations are usually resolved more with false attacks in hope to get another one to back off.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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Some arithmetic:

I start with a big Mugger croc of 4 meters long and  400 kilos weight.

From 4 to 5 meters: 5/4 = 1,25. Thus (5/4) cubed = 1,95.

The big-400-kilo Mugger croc becomes a 780-kilo-Saltwater croc.

From 4 to 6 meters: 6/4 = 1,5. Thus (1,5) cubed = 3,375

The big 400-kilo-Mugger croc becomes a 1350-kilo-Saltwater croc... Monster !

Numbers don't lie.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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On that subject, remember Gustav, the famous Nile croc !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_(crocodile)









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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
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I thought this was funny...




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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
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(10-17-2018, 07:00 PM)chaos Wrote:
(10-17-2018, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

Crocs of 3+ meters are more than any big cat can handle. On land, a very difficult task, in the water - a mismatch.
Just my opinion.

I think a big cat could handle a 4 meter crocodile, but at the most 4.5 meters (But that's another topic). A crocodile measuring 6 meters is totally out of the question. If female tigress machli could kill a 3 meter crocodile like you see in this picture below, I don't see why it is impossible for a male cat to take on a 4 meter crocodile. Judging from this picture, I would say this crocodile is at least 3 meters, perhaps 3.5 meters.



*This image is copyright of its original author


 It would have to use its speed and tire the crocodile out until it got exhausted. Also, the crocodile would need to be far away from water otherwise the crocodile if it got tired would probably just retreat back into the water where the cat could not follow.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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More exclusively about interactions between Nile crocs and lions and other animals into the water:






Here we can see, or guess, the second lion plunging for helping its fellow... The solidarity between the two cats worked.
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India parvez Offline
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#43
( This post was last modified: 10-18-2018, 12:10 PM by parvez )

(10-18-2018, 11:03 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote:
(10-17-2018, 07:00 PM)chaos Wrote:
(10-17-2018, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote: I made a picture to compare in rough way. Here in photo is replica of Lolong, a crocodile 6m 17cm long. And there is a tiger from above, I scaled tiger as relatively big, from nose to back about 2 meters without tail.

Tiger is not in straight position and I tried to pay attention to it. But this hopefully gives a little bit perspective to it, that what kind of sizes we are talking about with biggest known crocs. And also, that what is crocodile torso size and head size there. Red lines are meters, blue lines feet. I made those pictures just for personal curiosity.

6m 17 cm is 20,24 feet btw.

Crocs of 3+ meters are more than any big cat can handle. On land, a very difficult task, in the water - a mismatch.
Just my opinion.

I think a big cat could handle a 4 meter crocodile, but at the most 4.5 meters (But that's another topic). A crocodile measuring 6 meters is totally out of the question. If female tigress machli could kill a 3 meter crocodile like you see in this picture below, I don't see why it is impossible for a male cat to take on a 4 meter crocodile. Judging from this picture, I would say this crocodile is at least 3 meters, perhaps 3.5 meters.



*This image is copyright of its original author


 It would have to use its speed and tire the crocodile out until it got exhausted. Also, the crocodile would need to be far away from water otherwise the crocodile if it got tired would probably just retreat back into the water where the cat could not follow.

Well, the crocodile is curved and machli is around 6 feet head body length wise. The crocodile's head body length excluding tail is surely around 6-8 feet. Tail is another 6-8 feet. It is around 12-14 feet i.e 4-4.5 metres in length. This is a 150kgs tigress. If you go with adult alpha males weighing 300kgs it is possible to devour a 5-6m croc.
Size of machli compared to humans,




*This image is copyright of its original author
Wisdom of third eye
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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Maybe, perhaps a prime male tiger (such as Waghdoh, the big boys from Northern India.etc.) can kill a prime crocodile on land, but I doubt it would be easy because of the obvious size differences. Most of the time I think a prime croc can defend itself pretty well even on land.

   
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-19-2018, 01:52 AM by Shadow Edit Reason: correction )

(10-18-2018, 01:15 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Maybe, perhaps a prime male tiger (such as Waghdoh, the big boys from Northern India.etc.) can kill a prime crocodile on land, but I doubt it would be easy because of the obvious size differences. Most of the time I think a prime croc can defend itself pretty well even on land.

My estimation is pretty much, that if such fight would happen against all odds, it would end soon to situation where they just disperse. Tiger is in those sizes unable to do any real damage to croc and crocodile on the other hand should be lucky to be able to actually get the tiger. If other one would get injured seriously, then most probably it would be the tiger by tail of croc. Or maybe if croc had one of the good days, would actually be able to bite. Tigers best chance might be lucky clawing to the eye of croc. I don´t see any other part of croc that size, what tiger could seriously hurt there so, that croc would be in any real trouble. That size of croc should be able to retreat to water even if tiger on back of it. And for sure tiger would have no desire to be there anymore, when croc gets there. Maybe something like that might happen if croc would come to land and tiger there eating his prey. Hard to imagine, that tiger would in some other situation try his luck with... should I say "monster size" croc.

But false attacks like housecats do to alligators, why not.
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