ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo)

[johnny rex]

In the third picture of lion skulls records, there are a handful of skulls scoring exceeding 28 other than Angus Murray's 28 6/16 lion skull. Reply

[johnny rex]

   

Lion skull with total score (28 15/16) exceeded Angus Murray's lion skull at 28 6/16. I'm starting to doubt whether those skulls at SCI are measured accurately or not. A lion skull with that total score measurement must have length almost 18 inches. By the way, lions hunted in Southern Africa (South Africa & Namibia) according to SCI are canned lions (captive lions). Reply

[johnny rex]

   

Length and width of some SCI record lion skulls. Thoughts? Reply

[johnny rex]

Record Indian lion skull

   
   
   
   

A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep.
Sold with license

https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=M...&id=544266

Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not Reply

[johnny rex]

   

Here I make a comparison between the largest skull of tiger (using the 406 mm Siberian tiger skull as an example) and the largest skull of lion (using 419 mm Lionzilla skull as an example). What I found was despite the largest lion skull is clearly longer in total length than the largest tiger skull as what is shown in the picture, the dorsal skull (which is only the length of the cranium without the mandible) of the tiger and the dorsal skull of the lion were almost of the same length if the skulls are not resting naturally where both are not placed on a table like how Christiansen assesed the length of big cat skulls (Christiansen's method of skull measuring with skull positioned such that superior dentition are parallel to surface below). So, I think any 17+ inches long lion skull, excluding their mandible, will have similar length dorsal skull with those 16 inches tiger skull if they are not resting naturally. Thus, lion skulls seem longer because of their skull shape or configuration. Thoughts? Reply

[johnny rex]

   

If both skulls are like this, the differences in size seem minimal. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull






A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep.
Sold with license

https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=M...&id=544266

Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not

Is the biggest Asiatic lion's skull record? Reply

[johnny rex]

(09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull






A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep.
Sold with license

https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=M...&id=544266

Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not

Is the biggest Asiatic lion's skull record?

According to the description of the skull, it is the largest Indian lion skull. But I'm not sure about the measurement method. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(09-18-2018, 07:22 AM)johnny rex Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull






A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep.
Sold with license

https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=M...&id=544266

Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not

Is the biggest Asiatic lion's skull record?

According to the description of the skull, it is the largest Indian lion skull. But I'm not sure about the measurement method.

maybe it is based on the two point measuring, according to the width of skull, the skull length is GSL Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(09-09-2018, 02:39 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: The lion skull of 432 mm – 17 inches long.

 

In the old debates of AVA forum, when I investigated all the records of lions and tigers, completely focused on sizes, I found that this skull of 17 inches reported by Rowland Ward was, in fact, the largest skull on record and by far the most massive. Incredibly, it says that it was housed in the Berlin Museum, which added credibility to the record, but I must confess that as this was an “Owner’s measurements” figure, I always had my reserves whit it.

 

However, during my retirement from the forum, I continued with my investigations and I found something very interesting. When I searched for the largest lion skulls actually measured, I checked again the table of Dr Patterson in his book “The Lions of Tsavo”, and here it is:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

I noted that the largest skull was of 16 inches long and 10.7 inches wide (406.4 mm by 271.8) which is a record itself and is says that was collected in the 1909 safari. The reference was “Roosevelt & Heller, 1914” so I search it and guess what, I found it!

 

The book's name is “Life-Histories of African Game Animals” by Theodore Roosevelt and Edmund Heller, published in 1914 (fully available online). Is very good book, full of stories and also measurements of animals, for those who like to collect them. In page No. 225 I found this jewel, check it:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

The first part Roosevelt records the size of the skulls of East African lions, he says that in the National Museum of British East Africa the largest skull was of 373.0 mm, the average of the 15 old males is of 358.8 mm and the smallest male is of 349.2 mm. Check that these are specimens housed in the museum and not reported in a hunting record book. The figures are similar to those from Roberts (1951) for the specimens labeled as “L. l. massaicus”. It seems that about 360 mm is a good average for a male lion in the East of Africa.

Latter it came the “bomb”: Roosevelt says that the largest skull in Rowland Ward's records came from a male in the Berlin Museum from a South African specimen that lived in the Transvaal Zoological Gardens of Delagoa Bay, so guess what, that is exactly the same information of the large skull in Rowland Ward’s Records of Big game until the edition of 1914. More on the case, Roosevelt says that “The length of this skull, as measured by Heller, is 16 1/16 inches.” This is 408 mm or 16.08 inches (Patterson (2004) put only 16.0 inches) and “The greatest zygomatic width of this skull is 10 11/16 inches.” This is 271 mm or 10.7 inches like Patterson (2004). So the information with Ward (1914) matches and the measurements with Patterson (2004) also match, but why the size in Ward's is larger? Well, Roosevelt says “Ward records this skull also as the longest, but overstates its length, giving it as 17 inches”. So that is the reason, the size is incorrect in Ward (1914) and the origin is incorrect in Patterson (2004).

 

Interesting, the widest skull was of 277 mm but it is a captive specimen in USA and obviously affected by the confinement, this is clearly stated by Hollister (1917), check the table.

*This image is copyright of its original author

In the document “The Three-Dimensional Morphological Effects of Captivity“ of 2014, Dr Hartstone-Rose and his team measured 20 skulls from adult male lions, 10 captive and 10 wild, and the extremes are these:

 

** Wild:

Longest: Sp. 155443 – GSL 373.2 and ZW 235.2

Widest: Sp. 162913 – GSL 368.6 and ZW 251.1

 

** Captive

Longest: Sp. 254455 – GSL 387.8 and ZW 251.5

Widest: Sp. 172677 – GSL 371.6 and ZW 270.1

 

Again, the captive lions surpass the wild ones and produces high figures. The wild ones match the records from wild males from Roberts (1951).

For the moment, the widest skull from a male lion came from two specimens of 256 mm from South Africa. There is skull with a wide of almost 270 mm in the graphic of Patterson (2004) from Tsavo and other two specimens labelled as “Panthera leo leo”, which means that may belong from any part from the Sub-saharan region, but now that we know that captive specimens are included in the graphic, I don’t know how accurate it is, especially with the previous confusion. however it seems interesting that the second wides male in Hollister's (1917) table is of 264 mm (GSL 363 mm) and the widest skull of Hartstone-Rose et al. (2014) is of 270.1 mm (GSL 371.6). Believe it nor not it match the two skulls labeled as "Panthera leo leo" in the Patterson (2004) graphic, so the only remaining lion skull over 260 mm in ZW is that of the Tsavo male, only the time will tell what I am going to found about it.

Conclusion:

The largest lion skull actually recorded came from a captive specimen that had a greatest skull length of 408 mm and a zygomatic wide of 271 mm; the skull originated at South Africa, from a specimen that lived in the Transvaal Zoological Gardens of Delagoa Bay. That is the true of this specimen. The skull was not of 17 inches - 432 mm, was not a wild specimen and was not from East Africa. The current longest wild male measured by scientists is a skull of 401 mm from Southern Africa (Roberts, 1951), and the wild/captive male of 402 mm measured by Mazák (2013 - 1983), from Ethiopia. There are first hand hunting records of skull of 406 mm (Stevenson-Hamilton) and up to 419 mm (Vaugan Kirby), but the problem is that they don’t describe the method how they measured its skull (with calipers, squares at the tips or with a tape) and if they included, or not, the mandible, which is important according with the detractors of the old hunting records.

 

Hope this helps and clarify the case ones for all.

So in your opinion, the biggest lion's skull record is not the 432 mm? is should be a 419 mm? BTW, the biggest East African lion's skull is 408 mm, although it is smaller than South African lion, however, the skull's relative value is better. compared with the 432 mm skull, it just less 4 mm in the width Reply

[BorneanTiger]

(09-06-2018, 03:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-04-2018, 06:34 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: I have a question, are you sure that the figure of 120 cm in standing height cannot be reached by any lion, considering the limited populations of lions used in the study of Smuts et al. (https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wi....tb01433.x)? For Southern Africa in particular, Smuts et al. used samples from Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), the Kalahari region (divided between Botswana, Namibia and South Africa) and Kruger National Park in South Africa, and I would like to mention that Botswanan lions in the Okavango Delta have a peculiar physique, in which the front part of the body is noticeably more prominent than the rear, or the front limbs are noticeably more prominent than the hind limbs, making them somewhat similar to hyenas and saber-toothed cats, and this has to do with their unusual lifestyle of swimming or going through water or swamps: 

Photo of an Okavango lion by Steve Jurvetson on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/6758587589/ 

In fact, if you check the graphics in the document of Smuts et al. (1980), those shoulder measurements were taken by Dr Smuts and his team in the Kruger Park, and he specifically says that is not the standing height. There is no height reported for any other places in that paper.

A new study using cameras and lasers, also in Kruger, shows no male lion over 110 cm in standing height. If we only check pictures is very easy to be impresed by the size of those lions, but even a lion/tiger of 90 cm looks huge!

(09-18-2018, 07:02 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 01:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Record Indian lion skull






A male lion skull, on mahogany mount, with plaque stating 'This male lion is one of the largest on record, length back to front 15 3/8th inches, width across the zigomatic arches 10 5/8th inches, dental formula 31/3121, Panthera Leo, Gir Forist, Kathiawara India 1902', 38cm deep.
Sold with license

https://www.goldingyoung.com/Lot/?sale=M...&id=544266

Not sure if it was measured over a straight line or not

Is the biggest Asiatic lion's skull record?

It doesn't have to be the biggest Asiatic lion's skull, because we shouldn't forget the fact that the Asiatic lion wasn't just in India, but also in other countries such as Iran (formerly called 'Persia', which is why the Asiatic lion's also known as the "Persian lion", especially in Iran, which is keen on the latter name even today, rather than the name "Indian lion": https://books.google.com/books?id=esV0hc...on&f=false, https://books.google.com/books?id=t2EZCS...on&f=false, https://theiranproject.com/blog/2014/02/...to-persia/
persia, https://ifpnews.com/news/homeland/nature...sian-lion/), and though the Iranian lion may be extinct, specimens from Iran were around for scientific studies: 

- Skin of Shirea the Persian lioness in the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin: https://www.museum.ie/The-Collections/Do...an-Lioness 

*This image is copyright of its original author

- Barnett et al. had used 2 skulls from Iran for a study which showed that the Asiatic lion is closely related to the Barbary lion of North Africa: https://web.archive.org/web/200708081825...0lions.pdf 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

- Bertola et al. had A-DNA from Iran, labelled "Haplotype 28" or "H28", and this study showed that the Asiatic and Barbary lions are also related to West and (north) Central African lions, and to an extent, Northeast African lions: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep3080..._evolution 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[GuateGojira]

Quick post:

@johnny rex: That "lionzilla" skull is in fact the extra large lion skull from Boneclones, the greatest length is of 393 mm, smaller than the largest Manchurian tiger skull of 406 mm reported by V. Mazák. 

@Smilodon-Rex: If we take in count the hunting records, the skull of 419 mm from South Africa should be the largest (the record of 432 mm never existed), but not because of the original source (Vaugan Kirby, a hunter that probably measured the skull between uprights like all the hunters of that time), but because the fact that the skull was actually measured by Rowland Ward or his team. Check that this skull is not amoung the "Owner's measurements" which means that it was measured with callipers, like the picture of Mr Ward with a lion skull suggest (he is measuring the zygomatic wide in the picture). Check the image:

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is no reason to dobth that he also used the callipers to measured the total length of the skull with the same instrument, and take in count that using callipers the length of the mandible is not included, which discard the complains of the few posters that doubt on this records. Based on this and in the Rowland Ward's Records of Big Game book, in its 5th edition (1914), the longest lion skull in was of 419 mm (South Africa) and the longest tiger skull was of 384 mm (India).

However, some people complain about the reliability of these records, despite the fact that we have a picture of Mr Ward measuring the zygomatic wide with calipers, which suggest that also the GSL was measured with the same method. At the end, it depends on the reader if he/she accepts of not the records from Rowland Wards.

If we complettelly discard the hunting records of any source and we only accept the scientific records, the longest lion skull (from the wild) was of 401 mm from Southern Africa (Roberts, 1951) and the longest tiger skull (from the wild) was of 383 mm from Manchuria (Mazák, 1981).

Please take in count that the skull of 402 mm from Ethiopia and measured by Mazák (1983-2013) came from a captive specimen, and the skull of 408 mm (another captive animal) reported by Dr Patterson in his book, was from South Africa, not East Africa. So the longest lion skull from the wild at East Africa was, in fact, of 380 mm, according with Allen and Hollister (both authors summarized in Roberst, 1951).

@"Bornean Tiger": Barbary lions and Indian lions are not only closelly related, they are the same subspecies. In few words, all the lions from India, Persia, Greece (?), Barbary and west Africa, are the same subspecies Panthera leo leo. There is a study from Dr Simon Black "The Challenges and Relevance of Exploring the Genetics of North Africa’s (Barbary Lion) and the Conservation of Putative Descendants in Captivity" from 2016 where he concludes, based in genetic, that the Indian lions are closer to the "pure" Barbary lions than the specimens housed in the Rabatt Zoo (previously believed to be the last "pure" Barbary population), and that may be used in the future for reintroduction in the north of Africa.

To finish this post, about the skull of the "record" Indian lion posted here, I doubt that it is of that size, we have learned that the skulls sold in the internet are terrible measured, normally the seller only put a tape along the skull (following the curve) which greatly exagerate its real size. For the moment, the longest Asiatic lion skull (taking in count Egypt, Greece, Israel, Persia and India) is a specimen of 365.8 mm from an Indian male (Prater, 1921). Reply

[johnny rex]

(09-19-2018, 09:15 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Quick post:

@johnny rex: That "lionzilla" skull is in fact the extra large lion skull from Boneclones, the greatest length is of 393 mm, smaller than the largest Manchurian tiger skull of 406 mm reported by V. Mazák. 

@Smilodon-Rex: If we take in count the hunting records, the skull of 419 mm from South Africa should be the largest (the record of 432 mm never existed), but not because of the original source (Vaugan Kirby, a hunter that probably measured the skull between uprights like all the hunters of that time), but because the fact that the skull was actually measured by Rowland Ward or his team. Check that this skull is not amoung the "Owner's measurements" which means that it was measured with callipers, like the picture of Mr Ward with a lion skull suggest (he is measuring the zygomatic wide in the picture). Check the image:

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is no reason to dobth that he also used the callipers to measured the total length of the skull with the same instrument, and take in count that using callipers the length of the mandible is not included, which discard the complains of the few posters that doubt on this records. Based on this and in the Rowland Ward's Records of Big Game book, in its 5th edition (1914), the longest lion skull in was of 419 mm (South Africa) and the longest tiger skull was of 384 mm (India).

However, some people complain about the reliability of these records, despite the fact that we have a picture of Mr Ward measuring the zygomatic wide with calipers, which suggest that also the GSL was measured with the same method. At the end, it depends on the reader if he/she accepts of not the records from Rowland Wards.

If we complettelly discard the hunting records of any source and we only accept the scientific records, the longest lion skull (from the wild) was of 401 mm from Southern Africa (Roberts, 1951) and the longest tiger skull (from the wild) was of 383 mm from Manchuria (Mazák, 1981).

Please take in count that the skull of 402 mm from Ethiopia and measured by Mazák (1983-2013) came from a captive specimen, and the skull of 408 mm (another captive animal) reported by Dr Patterson in his book, was from South Africa, not East Africa. So the longest lion skull from the wild at East Africa was, in fact, of 380 mm, according with Allen and Hollister (both authors summarized in Roberst, 1951).

@"Bornean Tiger": Barbary lions and Indian lions are not only closelly related, they are the same subspecies. In few words, all the lions from India, Persia, Greece (?), Barbary and west Africa, are the same subspecies Panthera leo leo. There is a study from Dr Simon Black "The Challenges and Relevance of Exploring the Genetics of North Africa’s (Barbary Lion) and the Conservation of Putative Descendants in Captivity" from 2016 where he concludes, based in genetic, that the Indian lions are closer to the "pure" Barbary lions than the specimens housed in the Rabatt Zoo (previously believed to be the last "pure" Barbary population), and that may be used in the future for reintroduction in the north of Africa.

To finish this post, about the skull of the "record" Indian lion posted here, I doubt that it is of that size, we have learned that the skulls sold in the internet are terrible measured, normally the seller only put a tape along the skull (following the curve) which greatly exagerate its real size. For the moment, the longest Asiatic lion skull (taking in count Egypt, Greece, Israel, Persia and India) is a specimen of 365.8 mm from an Indian male (Prater, 1921).

I have contacted the owner of the skull cast of Lionzilla about the skull itself through a taxidermy forum, Lionzilla is not the Extra large lion skull from Bone Clones. She informed me that she measured Lionzilla skull with calipers without the lower jaw with overall score equal to 28 inches or 710 mm. Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

*This image is copyright of its original author

"The lion of Bulgaria"  -The "Zlatna Panega frieze of hunting lions" Reply

[GuateGojira]

(09-20-2018, 11:15 AM)johnny rex Wrote: I have contacted the owner of the skull cast of Lionzilla about the skull itself through a taxidermy forum, Lionzilla is not the Extra large lion skull from Bone Clones. She informed me that she measured Lionzilla skull with calipers without the lower jaw with overall score equal to 28 inches or 710 mm.

I saw your post in the Tiger extinction topic, but the owner continue quoting only the final score of 28 inches. If she measured the skull with calipers, why she don't say the correct measurements, which are greatest length and appart the bizygomatic wide by separate? She only measured the mold (420 mm x 297 mm) and altough the length match with the largest skulls actually measured, the wide is simple exagerated.

The largest skull measured by Rowland Ward (1914; not owner's meausrements) was of the giant specimen from Kirby's lion, that measured 16.5 inches (419 mm) in greatest length and 10 inches (254 mm) wide, this is the true record specimen in hunting sources and the total score is of 26.5 inches. The largest lion skull from Stevenson-Hamilton was of 16 inches (406 mm) in greatest length and 10 3/5 inches (269 mm) wide (if this skull was measured with calipers or between perpendiculars, like the "accurate" hunters (where Stevenson-Hamilton belong) in the old days done, is not known) and produce an score of 26 3/5 inches.

Interestingly the only lion skull with the score of 28 inches is the captive lion of Delagoa Bay (432mm X 281mm), that now we know was incorrectly reported by Rowland Ward (1914; owner's measurements). That is why I am suspicious of this lion "record" of Lionzilla. Even worst, a bizygomatic wide of 297 mm sounds like a clear exageration, as no lion or tiger skull reported was so wide (only cave lions!!!). In fact, the widest lion skull in scientific litterature was of 277 mm and came from a captive specimen in New York (Hollister, 1917) and the extra large lion skull from Bone Clones is 278 mm wide.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that you are talking with this person, but certainly I can't belive in her, specially when there are no records reported, in hunting and scientific records actually measured and from dozens of specimens, with those dimentions. Reply