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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo)
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I just came across this link discussing the numbers of wild lions in South Africa .... was just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on the subject ... if these numbers are true, then do the lodges there have a responsibility to care for and protect the lions that live in their lands? .... Just wondering what can be done to save the species and some of these blood lines .... its a shame that some of them have a high mortality rate when some intervention could help .... thanks for any and all answers for the discussion.
https://carteblanche.dstv.com/state-sas-lions/  (04-09-2018, 03:15 PM)jordi6927 Wrote: I just came across this link discussing the numbers of wild lions in South Africa .... was just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on the subject ... if these numbers are true, then do the lodges there have a responsibility to care for and protect the lions that live in their lands? .... Just wondering what can be done to save the species and some of these blood lines .... its a shame that some of them have a high mortality rate when some intervention could help .... thanks for any and all answers for the discussion. I feel that there was a serious need for this thread! They keep throwing random numbers like "only 20000 lions left in Africa". But how do does one know? Never had an Africa-wide proper census been held! Even in countries like South Africa number lions in the private hunting ranches & whatnot have not exactly been "counted"! Who knows how many of them are even true wild lions! Many are canned lions roaming in those fenced properties, selectively bred & raised to have big manes upto bellies, being farmed to be shot! Much of the lion lands in Africa has been facing political turmoil & there is no way of knowing exactly how many lions are left on the continent! Recently there presence had been detected on Gabon & Ethiopia! We need more data... (03-13-2018, 11:01 AM)Fredymrt Wrote: Credits to: African Journal of Wildlife Research. Quoting the data here...  Quote:Sexual dimorphism in lions seems to be less outspoken than in tigers. The table above shows quite a bit of overlap between males and females. Lioness 'Muna' had the longest head(54 cm.) by a margin. In skull circumference (88 cm.), she also topped the average for males (83 cm.). Lioness 'Spots', at 317 cm. in total length, is the the longest female cat I know of. The average chest girth of the 5 lionesses would have been over 125 cm. if the immature lioness (no. 8) would have been removed from the table. This means that they would have averaged well over 150 kg. (351 pounds). There is an error, @peter. Actually it is the male lion named Tara or also known as HPL-5 that have the 54 cm long head. Its mane is sparse if you see the pictures in the original source http://africat.org/hobatere-lion-researc...-june-2015 , do you think it is a young adult? But the method of measurement is over the curve, so that's why they got a 54 cm long head for Tara aka HPL-5. If it is measured in a straight line, it would be lesser than 54 cm. But they said in the original source, only the leg length measurement is measured over the curve (along body contour) and they didn't mentioned whether head length or head circumference (Volkel aka HPL-2 have a 98 cm head circumference) are measured over the curve. It would be better if someone have their contacts in order to know what method of measurement that they used.  (06-26-2018, 09:36 PM)johnny rex Wrote:Quote:Sexual dimorphism in lions seems to be less outspoken than in tigers. The table above shows quite a bit of overlap between males and females. Lioness 'Muna' had the longest head(54 cm.) by a margin. In skull circumference (88 cm.), she also topped the average for males (83 cm.). Lioness 'Spots', at 317 cm. in total length, is the the longest female cat I know of. The average chest girth of the 5 lionesses would have been over 125 cm. if the immature lioness (no. 8) would have been removed from the table. This means that they would have averaged well over 150 kg. (351 pounds). Thanks Johnny. I will correct the error and post the table when I have time. As to the question on the way the lions were measured. As far as I know, all lions were measured 'over curves'. This method has been adopted by nearly all field biologists, so it seems. The problem is that this method can be applied in different ways. Anyhow. Lions in that part of Africa are large animals. One of the males was 11 feet in total length measured 'over curves'. Desert females in particular seem to be longer than anywhere else. Most of the information used for the table was posted by the Lioness. If you have questions, you could contact her. At the moment, she most probably has no time (her mother was diagnosed with cancer). My advice is to go over the info yourself. Post the results in the thread 'On the Edge of Extinction - part B - The Lion (Panthera leo)'. I'll ask our mods to move your post and my reply to that thread as well. Quote:Thanks for the correction, Johnny. I will correct the error and post the table when I have time. I found their official page on Facebook, I already send several PMs to them about the method of their measurement and now waiting for further responses. If the lions are measured along body contour/over the curves, do they measure their head from the back of their ears to their upper lips, @peter? Below is a table from the original source.  *This image is copyright of its original author Yeah I think this comment should be transferred to Lion threads section. Thank you. (06-27-2018, 08:05 AM)johnny rex Wrote:Quote:Thanks for the correction, Johnny. I will correct the error and post the table when I have time. Ask them everything you need to know, Johnny. The method used today ('over curves') can be applied in different ways. In Royal Chitwan (Nepal), according to Sunquist, the measurement taken in this way almost compares to a measurement taken in a straight line ('between pegs'), but Miquelle, apparently using the same method in Russia, said the tape was pressed to the body at all points. I'm still not quite sure about Ullas Karanth, but Sunquist didn't see anything out of the ordinary in the measurement department when he was in Nagarahole. Ullas Karanth, regarding measurements taken by hunters a century ago, said a curve measurement is more reliable than a straight line measurement. I still didn't get to a conclusion, but my English seems to be wanting and I'm not a biologist. I did conclude that the method used in Russia today more or less compares to the method used in northern India a century ago. Male tigers captured in Russia today roughly compare to male tigers shot in northern India a century ago for total length. Chitwan tigers could be a bit longer. I'm not sure about tigers in northern India today, but my guess is they could compare to Chitwan tigers for total length. Remember that only few tigers were measured in Nagarahole, Chitwan and Primorye. The averages of a century ago are more reliable, My guess is that lions in southwestern Africa top the list for Africa (total length), but I'm not quite sure about the way the method is applied. Your job is to find out a bit more. It's about the details. Good luck.
Is the 419 mm skull actually the record holder for world biggest lion skull that was mentioned in Rowland Ward archives (for your info, according to the owner's measurement it was 432 mm long)? I got the info from an online shop.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
@johnny rex @peter , I have moved the posts regarding lions in "On the edge...Tigers" thread here.
08-10-2018, 07:11 PM
( This post was last modified: 04-22-2020, 09:57 AM by BorneanTiger
Edit Reason: Subspecies
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Before 2017, the following were recognised as subspecies (Heptner and Sludskiy: https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...4/mode/2up, Wozencraft: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/biol...d=14000228, and Haas et al.: https://web.archive.org/web/201707281311...ra_leo.pdf):
1) 1758: The nominate subspecies, the Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo) in North Africa Photo by Nelson Robinson, the New York Zoological Society, 1897 (https://archive.org/stream/annualreporto...#page/n141)  *This image is copyright of its original author 2) 1826: the Persian lion (Panthera leo persica) in Asia, and the Senegal lion (Panthera leo senegalensis) in West Africa Photo of an Asiatic lion in Natureinfocus.com (https://hive.natureinfocus.in/photo_sharing/royal-walk/)  *This image is copyright of its original author Photo of a Senegal lion by Panthera (http://am1070theanswer.com/news/entertai...icas-lions)  *This image is copyright of its original author 3) 1842: The Cape lion(Panthera leo melanochaita) in the Cape of Good Hope, South Africa Photo by an unknown photographer in Jardin des Plantes, Paris, circa 1860 (https://books.google.dk/books?id=15AsyQ8...&q&f=false)  *This image is copyright of its original author 4) 1843: The Nubian lion (Panthera leo nubica) in Northeast Africa (treated as belonging to the Barbary subspecies by Wozencraft, and the Masai subspecies by Haas et al.), and the Gambian lion (Panthera leo gambianus) in West Africa (treated as belonging to the Senegalese subspecies by Wozencraft and Haas et al.) Photo of a young Nubian lion in the New York Zoological Gardens by Elwin Sanborn (https://archive.org/stream/annualreportn...9/mode/1up)  *This image is copyright of its original author Photo of a Gambian lion in BookAllSafaris (https://www.bookallsafaris.com/sam-s-tou...ark-gambia)  *This image is copyright of its original author 5) 1891–1964: The Somali lion (Panthera leo somaliensis or Panthera leo webbiensis) in the Horn of Africa (treated as belonging to the Barbary subspecies by Wozencraft, and the Masai subspecies by Haas et al.) Photo of a lion in the Horn of Africa by Feisal Omar of Reuters (https://www.businessinsider.com/the-self...of-china-1)  *This image is copyright of its original author 6) 1892–1895: The Masai lion (Panthera leo massaica) in East Africa Photo of a Masai lion by Alison Buttigieg (http://www.alisonbuttigieg.com/border_galleries/lions/)  *This image is copyright of its original author 7) 1900: The Kilimanjaro lion (Panthera leo sabakiensis) in East Africa (treated as belonging to the Masai subspecies by Wozencraft and Haas et al.), and the Cameroon lion (Panthera leo kampzi) in Cameroon or West-Central Africa (treated as belonging to the Senegalese subspecies by Haas et al., and as a subspecies of its own by Wozencraft) Photo of a Kenyan lion in front of Mount Kilimanjaro by Stuart Abraham of Alamy (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-male-l...71851.html)  *This image is copyright of its original author Photo of a Cameroon lion by photo316 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/29844852@N06/2790086463)  *This image is copyright of its original author 8) 1913: The Ugandan lion (Panthera leo nyanzæ) in East Africa (treated as belonging to the Masai subspecies by Haas et al., and as a subspecies of its own by Wozencraft) Photo in the website of Marianah Tourist Hotel (https://marianahthotel.wordpress.com/saf...onal-park/)  *This image is copyright of its original author 9) 1914: The Katanga lion (Panthera leo bleyenberghi) in what is now southern D R Congo and Southwest Africa, the Sotik lion (Panthera leo hollisteri) in what is now Kenya in East Africa (treated as belonging to the Masai subspecies by Haas et al., and as a subspecies of its own by Wozencraft), and the Ethiopian lion (Panthera leo roosevelti) in Northeast Africa (treated as belonging to the Masai subspecies by Haas et al. and Wozencraft) Photo of a Namibian lion by Minden (https://www.mindenpictures.com/search/pr...09167.html)  *This image is copyright of its original author Stuffed Sotik lion shot by US President Theodore Roosevelt, photo by Jayne Orenstein in The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spea...ad97648320)  *This image is copyright of its original author Ethiopian lion in Bale Mountains National Park, video by the National Geographic (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017...d-species/)  *This image is copyright of its original author 10) 1924: The Congolese lion (Panthera leo azandica) in the northeastern part of what is now D R Congo Photo by Adrian Treves (https://savevirunga.com/2012/07/02/1-000...irunga-10/)  *This image is copyright of its original author 11) 1929: The Transvaal lion (Panthera leo krugeri) in what is now the Greater Kruger or Transvaal region of South Africa, and Southeast Africa Photo of a Kruger lion by Bernard Dupont (https://www.flickr.com/photos/berniedup/16757912564/)  *This image is copyright of its original author 12) 1945: The Kalahari lion (Panthera leo vernayi) in Southwest Africa (treated as belonging to the Transvaal subspecies by Haas et al.) Photo by Alison Buttigieg (http://www.alisonbuttigieg.com/border_galleries/lions/)  *This image is copyright of its original author In 2017, the Cat Classification Taskforce of the Cat Specialist Group (Pages 71–73: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y) revised lion subspecies. They recognised lions in Asia and Northern, Western and Central Africa as belonging to the subspecies Panthera leo leo, and those in Eastern and Southern Africa as belonging to the subspecies Panthera leo melanochaita, but there is a problem, the 2 subspecies appear to overlap in the Northeast African country of Ethiopia, which would mean that Ethiopian lions (formerly Panthera leo roosevelti or Felis leo roosevelti, in honor of the US President Theodore Roosevelt (https://archive.org/stream/smithsonianmi...3/mode/2up), but also treated as belonging to the Masai subspecies by Haas et al. and Wozencraft) are neither purely Panthera leo leo nor Panthera leo melanochaita, but a mixture (Panthera leo leo × Panthera leo melanochaita or Panthera leo leo + Panthera leo melanochaita), and the Cat Specialist Group put a question mark over the Horn of Africa in Page 72: Credit: the Cat Specialist Group Ethiopian lions have been in the news for their genetic makeup before. In 2012, Bruche et al. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...012-0668-5) had tested them, and found them to be genetically different to other lions. Photo of a captive Ethiopian lion at Addis Abeba Zoo in an article by ZeHabesha (https://www.zehabesha.com/ethiopias-iron...ding-fast/)  *This image is copyright of its original author
The tallest lion measured between pegs is 114 cm tall at the shoulder. But there are many sources said the tallest lion is at 124 tall at the shoulder which is equal to 4 feet. Which one is the accurate measurement?
08-31-2018, 04:24 PM
( This post was last modified: 09-21-2018, 09:43 PM by BorneanTiger
Edit Reason: Roderigues
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(08-30-2018, 01:35 PM)johnny rex Wrote: The tallest lion measured between pegs is 114 cm tall at the shoulder. But there are many sources said the tallest lion is at 124 tall at the shoulder which is equal to 4 feet. Which one is the accurate measurement? It is hard to say which one is more accurate, but measurements like that vary by region or subspecies, and depend on the length of the forelimbs. For example, the Barbary lion of North Africa (Panthera leo leo) was believed to be short at the shoulder, measuring 2 feet 7 inches (79 centimetres) to 3 feet 3 inches (99 centimetres), due to having short but powerful limbs. Sources: - Sir William Jardine, 1834: https://archive.org/stream/naturalistsli...0/mode/2up - Sir Alfred Edward Pease, 1914, who said that Barbary lions were 'enormous', not necessarily in terms of height, but in terms of weight, due to preying on abundant livestock, meaning that they were short and fat: https://archive.org/stream/bookoflion191...0/mode/2up - Nowell and Jackson, 1996, quoting Leyhausen (1975) in Page 37, who said that he and Hemmer identified the lions of Morocco's Rabat Zoo, also known as Temara Zoo, as having the characteristics of the Barbary lion, such as short legs: http://carnivoractionplans1.free.fr/wildcats.pdf Photo of a lion at Rabat Zoo by Maroc-maroc.com (http://www.maroc-maroc.com/voirPhoto-72-28-place.html):  *This image is copyright of its original author By contrast, Kalahari lions in Southern Africa (formerly Panthera leo vernayi, currently Panthera leo melanochaita: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y) were claimed by Roderigues (1997) to be quite tall: https://www.worldwildlife.org/ecoregions/at1309 Photo of a Kalahari lion by Allison Buttigieg (http://www.alisonbuttigieg.com/border_galleries/lions/): *This image is copyright of its original author
 (08-30-2018, 01:35 PM)johnny rex Wrote: The tallest lion measured between pegs is 114 cm tall at the shoulder. But there are many sources said the tallest lion is at 124 tall at the shoulder which is equal to 4 feet. Which one is the accurate measurement? Male lions normaly measure from 90-100 cm, the maximum taken "between pegs" is of 114 cm (Pitman 1942). The figures of up to 120 cm, in scientific documents at least, came from the study of Smuts et al. (1980), however the documents clearly says that the "shoulder" height recorded is not the standing height, but a measure from the shoulder to the tip of the paw taken along the curves. So no wild lion ever will measure 120 cm in standing height. In fact, the figure of 125 cm in shoulder height belongs to the largest Panthera atrox specimen, according with Turner & Anton (1997). Hope this helps. Greetings. 
09-04-2018, 06:34 PM
( This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 06:37 PM by BorneanTiger
Edit Reason: Okavango lions
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(09-04-2018, 10:38 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(08-30-2018, 01:35 PM)johnny rex Wrote: The tallest lion measured between pegs is 114 cm tall at the shoulder. But there are many sources said the tallest lion is at 124 tall at the shoulder which is equal to 4 feet. Which one is the accurate measurement? I have a question, are you sure that the figure of 120 cm in standing height cannot be reached by any lion, considering the limited populations of lions used in the study of Smuts et al. (https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wi....tb01433.x)? For Southern Africa in particular, Smuts et al. used samples from Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), the Kalahari region (divided between Botswana, Namibia and South Africa) and Kruger National Park in South Africa, and I would like to mention that Botswanan lions in the Okavango Delta have a peculiar physique, in which the front part of the body is noticeably more prominent than the rear, or the front limbs are noticeably more prominent than the hind limbs, making them somewhat similar to hyenas and saber-toothed cats, and this has to do with their unusual lifestyle of swimming or going through water or swamps: Photo of an Okavango lion by Steve Jurvetson on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/6758587589/  *This image is copyright of its original author
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