There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
08-13-2018, 08:30 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2018, 09:27 PM by Pckts )
(08-12-2018, 10:39 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(08-11-2018, 04:25 AM)peter Wrote: c - Elephants
A century ago, in the northern part of India, elephant herds often had a tusker guarding the calves. According to Knowles (see above), male tigers and tuskers clashed at times. In his book, some of these were described.
I could confirm by personal experience that elephants do afraid of tigers. In Palamau (Betla) national park in 1993 our riding tourist elephant faced a tiger who was resting in a cave in distance 10-15 meters from us. Since I'm a bit short sighted I was not able to see the eyes of tiger in the cave darkness despite my fellow and the mahout several times told me that tiger is watching us. I asked the mahout to move elephant closer to the cave. When we approached in distance 10-15 meters from cave entrance suddenly the elephant started to tremble violently, with shake waves through all the animal's body from trunk to the tail. The animal was quite scared or at least very nervous in the presence of the big cat. This violent vibrations continued several minutes. I started to offer to mahout money to move the elephant even closer but he refused. Than I got mad to him because I didn't succeed to see the burning eyes of the tiger despite my other tourist fellow clearly saw.
But we have to take into account that Asiatic elephants in general are bit coward animals, they easily panic. There are cases when only a close roar of panther could cause whole elephant heard to flee away or start panic.
Here as pointed Rishi the important question is how tiger kill a giant herbivore (bovines excluded because they are not so gigantic). As we can see from this videos even for big prides of lions consisting of 14-20 cats is quite difficult to hunt subadult elephant and kick it down even when the lions in big numbers like grapes cover the victim's body: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgx8Ah-hNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4nG4JsAyKY
For solitary cat as tiger this should be very-very-very difficult...
I think it also has to do with the captive Elephants that are used by the mahouts are not accustomed to Tigers compared to their wild cousins, they do have many encounters with Tigers obviously but it's always with a Mahout atop of them, even so, I've seen captive Elephants charge at Tigers as well but usually after the Tiger charges first maybe if they lived in their wild herds and had developed the natural hatred that comes from the natural circumstances, they'd probably be more like the one below.
A century ago, in the northern part of India, elephant herds often had a tusker guarding the calves. According to Knowles (see above), male tigers and tuskers clashed at times. In his book, some of these were described.
I could confirm by personal experience that elephants do afraid of tigers. In Palamau (Betla) national park in 1993 our riding tourist elephant faced a tiger who was resting in a cave in distance 10-15 meters from us. Since I'm a bit short sighted I was not able to see the eyes of tiger in the cave darkness despite my fellow and the mahout several times told me that tiger is watching us. I asked the mahout to move elephant closer to the cave. When we approached in distance 10-15 meters from cave entrance suddenly the elephant started to tremble violently, with shake waves through all the animal's body from trunk to the tail. The animal was quite scared or at least very nervous in the presence of the big cat. This violent vibrations continued several minutes. I started to offer to mahout money to move the elephant even closer but he refused. Than I got mad to him because I didn't succeed to see the burning eyes of the tiger despite my other tourist fellow clearly saw.
But we have to take into account that Asiatic elephants in general are bit coward animals, they easily panic. There are cases when only a close roar of panther could cause whole elephant heard to flee away or start panic.
Here as pointed Rishi the important question is how tiger kill a giant herbivore (bovines excluded because they are not so gigantic). As we can see from this videos even for big prides of lions consisting of 14-20 cats is quite difficult to hunt subadult elephant and kick it down even when the lions in big numbers like grapes cover the victim's body: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgx8Ah-hNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4nG4JsAyKY
For solitary cat as tiger this should be very-very-very difficult...
I think it also has to do with the captive Elephants that are used by the mahouts are not accustomed to Tigers compared to their wild cousins, they do have many encounters with Tigers obviously but it's always with a Mahout atop of them, even so, I've seen captive Elephants charge at Tigers as well but usually after the Tiger charges first maybe if they lived in their wild herds and had developed the natural hatred that comes from the natural circumstances, they'd probably be more like the one below.
08-13-2018, 11:25 PM( This post was last modified: 08-13-2018, 11:55 PM by Pckts )
(08-13-2018, 10:57 PM)paul cooper Wrote:
(08-13-2018, 08:30 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(08-12-2018, 10:39 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(08-11-2018, 04:25 AM)peter Wrote: c - Elephants
A century ago, in the northern part of India, elephant herds often had a tusker guarding the calves. According to Knowles (see above), male tigers and tuskers clashed at times. In his book, some of these were described.
I could confirm by personal experience that elephants do afraid of tigers. In Palamau (Betla) national park in 1993 our riding tourist elephant faced a tiger who was resting in a cave in distance 10-15 meters from us. Since I'm a bit short sighted I was not able to see the eyes of tiger in the cave darkness despite my fellow and the mahout several times told me that tiger is watching us. I asked the mahout to move elephant closer to the cave. When we approached in distance 10-15 meters from cave entrance suddenly the elephant started to tremble violently, with shake waves through all the animal's body from trunk to the tail. The animal was quite scared or at least very nervous in the presence of the big cat. This violent vibrations continued several minutes. I started to offer to mahout money to move the elephant even closer but he refused. Than I got mad to him because I didn't succeed to see the burning eyes of the tiger despite my other tourist fellow clearly saw.
But we have to take into account that Asiatic elephants in general are bit coward animals, they easily panic. There are cases when only a close roar of panther could cause whole elephant heard to flee away or start panic.
Here as pointed Rishi the important question is how tiger kill a giant herbivore (bovines excluded because they are not so gigantic). As we can see from this videos even for big prides of lions consisting of 14-20 cats is quite difficult to hunt subadult elephant and kick it down even when the lions in big numbers like grapes cover the victim's body: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgx8Ah-hNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4nG4JsAyKY
For solitary cat as tiger this should be very-very-very difficult...
I think it also has to do with the captive Elephants that are used by the mahouts are not accustomed to Tigers compared to their wild cousins, they do have many encounters with Tigers obviously but it's always with a Mahout atop of them, even so, I've seen captive Elephants charge at Tigers as well but usually after the Tiger charges first maybe if they lived in their wild herds and had developed the natural hatred that comes from the natural circumstances, they'd probably be more like the one below.
Sorry to object that the #1371 and #1372 videos are the same, the former being the extended latter for one minute. And this tiger, if I don't make a mistake, kills an axis deer.
Sorry to object that the #1371 and #1372 videos are the same, the former being the extended latter for one minute. And this tiger, if I don't make a mistake, kills an axis deer.
Thanks for bringing it up.
The following 1 user Likes Apollo's post:1 user Likes Apollo's post • Spalea
08-29-2018, 03:23 PM( This post was last modified: 08-30-2018, 06:24 AM by Rishi )
(08-29-2018, 12:28 PM)paul cooper Wrote: @peter, on carnivora was going on a debate about gaur and buffaloes versus tigers. Do you know anything about this specific subject? What chance a tiger has a against a buffalo face to face?, and interactions between the two?
If you learn any interesting facts, do share it with us too.
Any tiger in the wild will try its best to not end up "face to face" against full grown animals five times its weight.
Dhamangaon male was photographed doing it once...
If it comes to that, then tigers rarely have a reason to not simply back away, instead of risking fatal injuries. Many of the (adult) gaur hunts consist of a tiger injuring the animal & tracking it down later to kill it in much weakened condition.
Water buffalo are now restricted to mostly Assam & much less documented. But earlier they were found in good numbers in the Chotanagpur Plateau region, when back in the '50s-'60s those were India's prime hunting areas (partially responsible for those forests being empty today).
From contemporary accounts, water buffalo were the most feared animals of the forests they were found in, still are. Unlike the shy gaurs, they're aggressive & vindictive, known to chase down tigers trying to call it a day. There are videos of tigers & lions of india against domestic/feral buffalos. Imagine how their larger & more vengeful wild cousins are like.
Also theirs long, curved horns make frontal attack to the neck unsafe. A sideways jerk of the head would skewer any big-cat & disembowel it or puncture a lung.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Both species are hunted regularly by tigers. They are making buffalo reintroduction in Chitwan difficult by killing off the inexperienced newcomers.
(@Jimmy it's probably the subcontinent's only tiger habitat with both gaurs & buffalos. Keep us updated.)
But gaurs & water buffalos are big, dangerous prey by whom a tiger or two gets killed every year too. You could find reports on various Indian newspapers if you search.
Even Wagdoh male's facial scar was from a gaur's horn. Had it caught him a few inches further, it could have been his throat & we would have never known him.
08-31-2018, 02:55 AM( This post was last modified: 08-31-2018, 04:22 AM by Wolverine )
@Spalea , since we have a friendly conversation about behavior of the two cats, that's what I think. Tiger is not "smarter" than lion in human sence, he is just more concentrated hunter, he has just a higher ability to concentrate on particular subject, in this case on one single particular prey, while lions are more easily dispersed and change their attention easily from one to other subject. Lets imagine a classroom with many students, one of the students always listen what the teacher is saying, while other student is more dispersed and often check his cell phone, chat with his friends. Does the first student is "smarter" than the second one? No, he is just more concentrated. If tiger decides to kill a particular big animal, for example a gaur, he will finally kill it, he will hunt the gaur for many days. He will withdraw for hours to drink a water, to smell a signs for females or intruders, but he always keep in "mind" that he is hunting that particular animal. Even if the tiger during this period of time sees many other prey animals like deer he probably will not turn his attention to them. Lions from other hand if they have opportunity will turn their attention to other prey animals. Lion hunts, tiger hunts down. This probably is a tiger's evolutionary adaption for living in habitat with dense vegetation, where the herbivores often hide and disappear among the trees, so the tigers have evolved a capability to "project" in their brain the hunted animal even the hunted animal is not in the front of their eyes. Lion inhabit open habitats where all animals are in the front of their eyes, so evolution didn't require from lions to develop such a ability to project the herbivore in brain for long period of time.
Completely agree with you that both cats are not even close in their intelligence to some other really inteligent species like canids, bears, dolphins, elephants and of course apes. If the civilization didnt evolved from apes it would probably evolved from bears or maybe dogs... Could you compare a domestic dog which is almost half-human with a domestic cat who is simply "stupid". We love tigers and lions not because they are smart but because they are powerful, majestic, royal, charismatic etc.
Wolverine Wrote: No, he is just more concentrated. If tiger decides to kill a particularbig animal, for example a gaur, he will finally kill it, he will hunt the gaur for many days. He will withdraw for hours to drink a water, to smell a signs for females or intruders, but he always keep in "mind" that he is hunting that particular animal.
So you telling that tiger takes many days to kill a adult gaur? No you're wrong at this. It doesn't take much time for a Tiger to kill a healthy adult gaur. The last post of "Peter" has shown few cases of Tiger killing adult bull wild buffalos instantly.
There are cases of Tiger killing adult rhinos in recent times. Where in one case a subadult male tiger and adult female rhino found dead after a prolonged fight. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kaziranga-national-park.com/blog/royal-bengal-tiger-and-rhinoceros-found-dead-in-kaziranga/&ved=2ahUKEwjxw7252JbdAhWYXn0KHQNcBmMQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0W9yDL_g-p5BTss0HRuYMx
What that means? It may take several hours to manage to kill a adult rhino in a fight but still succeed. A buffalo is not a formidable opponent than a adult rhino.
And another I liked to say is. No gaur contain a weak neck circumstance. Gaur bulls in particular contain much thicker necks than females and subadults. Here are some pictures for example...
*This image is copyright of its original author
And....
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a image of odin in his old age. But still impressive neck...
*This image is copyright of its original author
The important thing we have to notice is the thick skin hanging behind neck makes a curve at the neck part. While there's no hanging skin in cape buffalos.
Which makes it looks gaurs having thinner necks in some angles. Which means the hanging skin at neck circumstance is less as compared to that of the skin hanging in the middle of fore legs. And this is significant in young and prime bulls.
But the muscle part of the neck is totally thick and formidable. Tigers kill both buffalos and gaurs through throat bites. It doesn't mean prey has weaker neck. Gaurs evolved to be regular prey for tigers, why they tend to have thinner necks? As the predator always target throats....
Wolverine Wrote: No, he is just more concentrated. If tiger decides to kill a particularbig animal, for example a gaur, he will finally kill it, he will hunt the gaur for many days. He will withdraw for hours to drink a water, to smell a signs for females or intruders, but he always keep in "mind" that he is hunting that particular animal.
So you telling that tiger takes many days to kill a adult gaur? No you're wrong at this. It doesn't take much time for a Tiger to kill a healthy adult gaur. The last post of "Peter" has shown few cases of Tiger killing adult bull wild buffalos instantly.
There are cases of Tiger killing adult rhinos in recent times. Where in one case a subadult male tiger and adult female rhino found dead after a prolonged fight. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kaziranga-national-park.com/blog/royal-bengal-tiger-and-rhinoceros-found-dead-in-kaziranga/&ved=2ahUKEwjxw7252JbdAhWYXn0KHQNcBmMQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0W9yDL_g-p5BTss0HRuYMx
What that means? It may take several hours to manage to kill a adult rhino in a fight but still succeed. A buffalo is not a formidable opponent than a adult rhino.
And another I liked to say is. No gaur contain a weak neck circumstance. Gaur bulls in particular contain much thicker necks than females and subadults. Here are some pictures for example...
*This image is copyright of its original author
And....
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a image of odin in his old age. But still impressive neck...
*This image is copyright of its original author
The important thing we have to notice is the thick skin hanging behind neck makes a curve at the neck part. While there's no hanging skin in cape buffalos.
Which makes it looks gaurs having thinner necks in some angles. Which means the hanging skin at neck circumstance is less as compared to that of the skin hanging in the middle of fore legs. And this is significant in young and prime bulls.
But the muscle part of the neck is totally thick and formidable. Tigers kill both buffalos and gaurs through throat bites. It doesn't mean prey has weaker neck. Gaurs evolved to be regular prey for tigers, why they tend to have thinner necks? As the predator always target throats....
While I agree that Tigers can kill Gaur quickly, a large Bull is NOT being taken down quickly and especially not by a throat hold, at least not by anything other than an exceptional specimen and predation. Even the last photo you show is from a very old Bull named Odin, he fought the Tiger all night long and lived to tell the tale.
Not sure where people get that Gaur have small necks either, you see them in person and their is nothing small about them, especially the Bulls.
Cape buffalo are more round and stocky than Gaur are, but overall Gaur are fairly larger and much more muscular obviously, I really want to see Wild Water Buffalo next, they look to be absolute monsters of a Bovine as well.
Pckts Wrote:a large Bull is NOT being taken down quickly and especially not by a throat hold, at least not by anything other than an exceptional specimen and predation. Even the last photo you show is from a very old Bull named Odin, he fought the Tiger all night long and lived to tell the tale.
Yeah I just got this quote from famous book "wild cats of the world" by "Mel sunquist"!
Gaur bulls are more immune to tiger predation (you guys know that). Maybe it takes a little more time in a face to face encounters, but in ambush tigers indeed kill them in a little time.
But it doesn't take days to kill a gaur! Tiger is not a house cat. That quote from @Wolverine is totally wrong!
I didn't said a Gaur can't fought off a tiger. Odin just fought off a tiger didn't killed either. Yet there are cases of gaur killing tigers,bu b most of them are not adult males.
