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The Tumbela Coalition
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 (08-28-2022, 02:49 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:Every coward strives for self preservation. It takes guts to achieve more than that.(08-28-2022, 02:31 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: And I dont think Skorro has it in him to successfully keep a pride. Take for instance the Gijima males. They showed up, saw opportunities despite being outnumbered by the N'was. So they put up a fight, stood their ground and got rewarded with territory and a pride for it. And again, I am not saying I don't understand why he runs. But fleeing is only good for Skorro Tumbella now. Its not good for anyone else. He needs to go nomadic permanently to either find coalition partners or some tactic that works for him. Like trying to ambush Nym. Not flee when there is the risk of a potential future fight only to then flee back to the pride because nomadic life is harsh. Otherwise this is just going to repeat itself, over and over. With the Othawas or with any future pride he may hold.  (08-28-2022, 04:07 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Every coward strives for self preservation. It takes guts to achieve more than that. Comparing 3 Gijimas vs 4 Ndhzengas to 1 lone male against 2 males is bad comparison, 3 males can easily isolate, catch and kill even outnumbered (and btw Gijima lost that clash, they didnt get rewarded by anything, they lost 1 member, and got chased out Ndhzengas territory, they settle in territory which was vacant by Ndhzengas before they came). Chances for 3 vs 4 are far greater then 1 vs 2. Lone male cant even kill another male in a 1 vs 1 (1vs1 kills between 2 adult/healthy males very rarely happen, in fact i dont know any example of it in Kruger, even if it happened, it comes to lucky bite/strike so other male bleeds out), let alone 1 vs 2. Skorro Jr. didn't flee for half a year, yet stood his ground, fight and manuevere 2 invading coalitions (lets not change history), he even fight and beat Nhenha 1vs1, but he couldn't win the war, its impossible. You need to understand, that there is no lion in history who beat 2 adult invading males in a 1 vs 2, you are expecting something from Skorro Jr. which was never achieved. So you are "bashing" Skorro Jr., saying he is "coward" and "uncapable" for something which never has been done by any male. You seriously think that any other male, even the strongest, biggest and most confident male in Kruger would be able to hold that territory vs Nhenha and Nkuhuma? He wouldn't.
Again, I understand the odds are incredibly against him and I understand why he fled. I just don't believe its good news he is back.
I am just not going to say that he is such a brave lion for leaving and that now he is back with the pride, everything is going to be fantastic now. Especially for Sassy and the cubs. And one day, his name is going to be called along with all the great lions in the past. Jr's mom was brave enough to fight for the cubs. Auntie was brave enough to fight for the cubs. Why is it too much to ask for Skorro to do the same? I am not asking of him to tear them to pieces, just a short distraction while the rest flees would be more than enough. It is his job afteral. (08-28-2022, 06:56 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Jr's mom was brave enough to fight for the cubs. Auntie was brave enough to fight for the cubs. Why is it too much to ask for Skorro to do the same? I am not asking of him to tear them to pieces, just a short distraction while the rest flees would be more than enough. It is his job afteral. Skorro did the same lol, for half a year he was doing "distraction" and fighting, he didn’t run on a first sight of intruders, but at some point he needs to confort 2 males together, and that would be fatal for him, just as it was for 2 old females.
Well. It would be the brave thing to do right now. But no longer fleeing and trying to help would be enough.
Whether or not it would prove his worth. It depends on to who. To us, not really. We have no stakes in this fight and can see why he fled. Being a cowardly lion or a brave lion are purely characterisation we give to a lions personality as we try to predict what happens next. Its a curse now. But may be a blessing tomorrow. We may think Skorro is worth less now because he fled from a fight. But had Nguvu been a bit more cowardly he would be alive right now. But from the perspective of the Othawa pride. They dont care about what happens to Skorro. They are stuck feeding him and aren't getting anything in return anymore. For them, Skorro is a liability. He needs to give them something  (08-28-2022, 06:56 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Again, I understand the odds are incredibly against him and I understand why he fled. I just don't believe its good news he is back. Every time Skorro Jr learns something. Everyone agrees that the lionesses had a real mother's instinct. They had a lot of experience, too, and they knew how costly it is to keep peace and safety in their area. Nhenha has a lot of experience, too, so he's not learning, he's doing what he remembers needs to be done. Skorro Jr is younger, but he will see very soon what's left of the pride. He will see the price they paid. Perhaps it will ignite in him something that needs to be burning brighter. He lucked out when he ran into the old Matimba male and took over the pride. He and his brothers did not have to really fight for what they got. He's not a seasoned fighter at all. But with lions, if you don't realize the fighting is necessary, you get nowhere. From what I can see a nice lion doesn't last as long. I heard that he Othawa male didn't kill the subs, did he? He was pretty tolerant. Perhaps he thought other lions were like he was and not overly aggressive. Perhaps the Othawa male learned too late that his neighbor lions weren't as nice as he was. He was DEAD wrong. I'm hoping Skorro Jr becomes something he isn't right now. I hope his learning curve is quick, too. I hope he uses his size, strength, wits and presence to help the pride now. He may help them and still leave later. So many possibilities. We'll see. 
I think the perception Skorro Jr would be useless and just a nuisance for the remains of Othawa pride is incorrect. Just very rcently they took a kill from Mhangeni pride, mostly because Mhangeni prefer to avoid other lions and supposedly were not sure if there are any males with Othawas. If they keep meeting each other Mhangenis will figured out it is just Sassy and cubs, co Skorro Jr (even occasional) presence would be great help, an intimidating factor. He would probably claim the warthog for himself, but he could help Othawa to steal a bigger kill next time. He would ofc be useful for his power taking down bigger prey, just him and Sassy is not much for a buffalo in normal circumstance but it is doable (his very own father took on whole herd alone and killed one for himself and Sizanani). But there are smaller prey, as long as the flight is not the key part of the hunt, rather the power to overcome the prey, he would be priceless if he bothered to help. Also just his presence would a great detterent from hyenas trying something towards the pride.
He could still be net negative at times through eating his lion share, but that's how it is with males.
08-28-2022, 11:05 PM
( This post was last modified: 08-28-2022, 11:06 PM by Wyld@Heart
Edit Reason: Grammar
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Some people on here are very guilty of perpetuating the myth of male lions only being fit for stealing food, eating most of everything and that being all. The same people are saying he is better off away from the pride because he'll attract attention etc etc etc. Lucky he stayed away then because then the pride wouldn't have lost its two most senior members. Oh wait, they did. Even without a male to 'draw attention'. We can't recommend actions, anthropomorphize these animals and hold them to a set of rules and guidelines and/or expect them to live their lives on paper.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it just doesn't work that way out in the bush. These animals are instinct driven for the most part and we should be wary of looking at them through the lens of a human view point. All we can do is observe and see what plays out. Assigning a definitive outcome to an as yet to be determined conclusion of events while labeling wild animals with human attributes is foolhardy.
Imagine if Skorro was with them on that warthog scraps?
No cub would have gotten any piece. I bet he would have eaten the most of that giraffe too. I mean, does having him around outweigh the potential cost of him getting the most food in such circumstances? (08-28-2022, 11:38 PM)Bellateda Wrote: Imagine if Skorro was with them on that warthog scraps? Imagen if Mhangenis didn't back off and attacked Othawas there, and killed few cubs? This might very well happen next time they meet. Skorro Jr. cant protect them against NK/Nhenha or PC males (although he would be useful even then as males will go after him and left room for Othawas to escape) but having Skorro with them is useful as no other lion group like Mhangenis or hyenas will not touch them, also would help them on bringing bigger pray down, so its not like having him around is useless.  (08-29-2022, 12:29 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(08-28-2022, 11:38 PM)Bellateda Wrote: Imagine if Skorro was with them on that warthog scraps? Agree with u my friend!!
Ultimately its a matter of cost benefit.
Keeping a male lion around is a huge drain for food. If he keeps hogging food and the pride doesn't catch enough. That's a death sentence for some of the cubs right there. If things grow dire enough, he may even end up killing Sassy himself and ending the pride right there. So the first question is going to be whether or not they can get enough food. Unless there is a famine or Sassy ends up breaking a paw. This likely wont be much of an issue. But it will force the group to take more risks as they need to go after bigger prey. Going after big kills is going to be a risk for the two. Not only is there a big chance of getting hurt, there is always the risk that the rival groups are hunting the same herd or are attracted to the kill in the time it would take to finish it. Another downside is that rival coalitions are a lot less tolerant of other groups nearby if they are or are known to associate with other male lions. If he starts to roar now, it would just invite a fight. Luckily Skorro has long abandoned his claims over any territory in the region. So he likely wont be drawing attention to himself. The upside is Skorro being able to participating in hunts and keeping away threats. And this is where things get a bit murky. Male lions do hunt, but they don't do well hunting together with lionesses as those employ different tactics. Only when hunting big game male lions typically are useful so the two would need to work out a system to prevent each other from ruining their chances. Defense is no doubt the biggest advantage of keeping a male lion around. Against the local coalitions its clear he wont win a fight, but that does not mean he cant win time distracting them or perhaps even ambush other male lions on his own. Against hyenas he without a doubt will be a good asset, and perhaps against rival prides as well depending on the circumstances. And lets not underestimate the sheer imposing image of having a healthy male lion around to begin with. He may not be able to beat the Birminghams in a fair fight. But his presence alone may have convinced the Birminghams to not risk starting a fight to begin with. But offcource he needs to be actually around for that and become a team player with the pride. So no more only popping in for a few meals and then chickening out again so he doesn't have to confront his rivals. Because if he keeps doing that. His presence isn't worth the food he takes. But if he chooses to stick around and help. He can still do a lot of good and reach the ultimate goal of raising cubs to adulthood. 
I think once a male has lost his territory, his job is effectively done. He isn't a coward or anything like that, cowardness isn't a thing in the wild and you aren't gonna survive trying to be a hero. It's up to the pride now to have a strategy to save any subadults if they can. At the end of the day, cubs are expendable in the lion world. Bottom line, I think a male's presence with a nomadic pride is probably a net loss. He's gonna eat the most, potentially make noise at the dinner table which will definitely attract attention, and be the first to run cuz he has nothing to defend. A nomadic pride has to be discreet and they aren't gonna be that with a big male without a territory on their tale. A male will deter hyenas but does a nomadic pride with one lioness and 5 subadults even wanna be engaged in such a battle? they should just leave the kill to the hyenas to protect themselves, let alone have a male loudly and aggressively defend the kill.
(08-28-2022, 02:49 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:Yes, against two invading males, its not easy for a solitary male. We have seen almost exactly the same thing with Mo a few moths ago. He roared for a short while against the two young lions and then did a similar run leaving his tiny cub and the female. But people had so much love for this poor chap, I haven’t seen a single negative comment about him. Prior to that, he did so many runs against Mjejane coalition, I lost count. Everyone was like, “ Run Mo, Run.. Please do. Survive, we love you”. I haven’t seen that kind of love on internet for a lion. Skorro Jr. must be a frustration case as Tumbela take over turned out to be a complete disaster for the pride. It’s unfortunate his brothers didn’t last.(08-28-2022, 02:31 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: And I dont think Skorro has it in him to successfully keep a pride. Don’t want to take focus too much away from Skorro Jr here but have questions on Imbali male.. Agreed, a 2 lion coalition didn’t invade his territory and fight him yet but seems he roared towards the 2 Avocas. Every day he is roaring like crazy without fear and seems that alone is keeping invasions away from his territory for now. Isn’t that defending against larger coalitions? Yes, if a two lion coalition locks up on him and tracks him down, it might be over. But how is he managing from that not happening? What is he doing correctly that Skorro Jr didn’t do in the final days of his territorial hold? Skorro Jr seems to be in just as good condition (or almost) as Imbali male is. Is it because of pure luck of not having strong males like PC males next to his territory that this Imbali chap is managing to hold his territory? Or is it because of his fearlessness? (08-29-2022, 04:42 AM)Horizon Wrote:(08-28-2022, 02:49 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:Yes, against two invading males, its not easy for a solitary male. We have seen almost exactly the same thing with Mo a few moths ago. He roared for a short while against the two young lions and then did a similar run leaving his tiny cub and the female. But people had so much love for this poor chap, I haven’t seen a single negative comment about him. Prior to that, he did so many runs against Mjejane coalition, I lost count. Everyone was like, “ Run Mo, Run.. Please do. Survive, we love you”. I haven’t seen that kind of love on internet for a lion. Skorro Jr. must be a frustration case as Tumbela take over turned out to be a complete disaster for the pride. It’s unfortunate his brothers didn’t last.(08-28-2022, 02:31 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: And I dont think Skorro has it in him to successfully keep a pride. I think the Imbali male had luck. DM was limping and RR stayed north. The Avocas seemed to leave him alone. He didn't have the same pressure on his area, and he didn't have a fence keeping him pinned in with only one way out. So yes, I think he is in a better situation. When Red Road male fought with 2 of the Tinstmalo boys, he fought and ran. He stayed at the bottom of his territory for 2 weeks or so before coming back to the Nharus, a pretty big pride with many lionesses. I've seen the Ross males get pretty injured in fights, and they'd lay low with their large pride and each other until they healed well. Skorro Jr had always had a brother there before his last brother died. Of course he knew 2 of his lionesses were old, too. He had no substantial backup or lioness unit. Skorro Jr stood his ground with Nhenha alone and did not leave his post. He left the area when he had no partner anymore. If he got injured what good would that do? Nhenha did absolutely nothing aggressive to any lion after he was dethroned until he partnered up with his son. He didn't want to get injured either. Even now he doesn't defend his nomad lionesses and cubs. Skorro Jr is not so different than these other lions. |
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