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The Mighty Mapogos
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Since I was mentioned here, some remarks. I haven´t had really time to look closer what is the problem so I write more in general.
Firstly, there are some unclear things, what comes to some incidents and lions of this coalition. That creates speculation and disagreements and when some people are very... passionate so to say, easily heating up feelings. That should be avoided. If you see some speculation which you disagree or can prove to be wrong, do so with reasoning and back up with information. Avoid for instance calling some theory stupid etc. Just tell why you think, that some theory is wrong or improbable. Secondly its good thing to remember, that Mapogos were lions and now they are gone. They lived and died like lions do, joined forces as young ones, then became rulers of vast area in their prime, but as all lions at some point, were finally dethroned by younger and stronger lions. How did some vanished lion die...? Who knows, one theory is as good as any other. Poachers, another lion or lions, crossing paths with wrong elephant or rhino.... getting seriously injured in hunting, multiple possibilities and when some death has been speculated for years, only one thing is sure. No-one knows really. This seems to be the case with Rasta and making claims to one direction or another without really solid proof, which at this point is impossible to get, is just pointless. He died at some point, that´s it.´ If here is now some unclear issue remaining, someone could write clearly what is now the problem and why. If not, good. These are the words of James Tyrrell from Londolozi concerning Majingilanes, but suitable here too, same goes with Mapogos etc.: "The sun sets on one of the great lion coalitions of Southern Africa. The scar-nosed Majingilane is now the third of this illustrious coalition to depart this earth, with the fourth and final male (Dark-maned) still unaccounted for but very possibly dead as well. There is a lot of social media side-taking when it comes to lions, which I find ironic, as to do what we do to and for sports teams or athletes in terms of support and idolizing really has no place here. These lions are not superstars. Our cheering from the sidelines or favouritism in no way prolongs their lives or helps them hunt or reproduce. Despite having the keenest hearing, they are essentially deaf to all that is said about them on blogs, Facebook or Instagram. What they SHOULD be lauded for – and I’ll gladly join in and sing their praises here – is their continued legacy as ambassadors for their species. True icons in a world that, more than ever, needs to recognize the value of its wild places, in which utterly magnificent creatures such as these still roam free." 
I never claimed that there was documented confrontation, but that by that time PB carry some nasty injures which are suggesting some fight happened there. That if Rasta was part of it is only a theory, but since it is not documented how Rasta die theorys are only thinks we are left with.
 (03-16-2020, 10:13 PM)Potato Wrote: I never claimed that there was documented confrontation, but that by that time PB carry some nasty injures which are suggesting some fight happened there. That if Rasta was part of it is only a theory, but since it is not documented how Rasta die theorys are only thinks we are left with. I agree with you. We dont know what happened to Rasta and never will, but claiming that 100% he isnt killed by Majingilanes is false info too, because we dont know, we dont have evidence that he was poached either. People on Youtube comment section are crazy about this topic, even claiming that 4 Majingilanes would lose to PB and Rasta.. Cmon, this is no fairy tale. 
"And then how came up with this: "Most likely there was a confrontation between Mapogos and Majingilanes, possibly 4vs2."???"
I simply think it is the most likely scenario of all possibilities. (03-17-2020, 12:39 AM)AbcXyz Wrote: Cmon, you can't predict the outcome of a fight between 2 experienced male lions and 4 rookies. Please keep these comments for YouTube, where you are so active, and don't confuse a reputed forum with the comments section of YT. So we cant said our personal opinions and theories here? Idk why are you so heated up because somebody said that he thinks that Rasta was most likely killed by Majingilanes. He even said at the end that we will never know exactly. Idk how is this spreading false info, its just his theory..
Ok, now I understand better what is the problem here and it seems to be death of Rasta and what caused it. Obviously no-one knows that, so people can speculate.
Some people think, that Majingilanes could have killed him. When speculating that is as good theory as anything else I think. When speculation is something like 4-2 situation, people who like Mapogos a lot seem to think, that more experienced lions would handle easily situation in which they are outnumbered so, that both should face 2 lions at the same time. In this we have to remember, that for other lions Mapogos were nothing special. For younger males searching for new prides to rule Mapogos were just other lions, nothing more or less. And when we talk about "rookies" we are talking about young and strong lions in the end of their nomadic phase or about lions, which have already fought successfully against some other coalitions. Rookies.... maybe less experienced, but already gone through harsh lessons, no jokes. And when we speculate with 4-2 situation, it can (as seen many times) be actually 4-1 and again 4-1, when pair is separated for some reason and then lone male is roaring and calling his coalition partner to help while being mauled. So if that kind of situation has happened, it would be no miracle at all, that situation went bad for 2 Mapogos. There are no "fair play" rules out there, those lions aren´t and weren´t there to prove anything to us or anyone else. They use opportunities when seeing those and 4-1 or 4-2 etc. is a very good one to get rid of competition. There is no male lion coalition with any reputation among other lions, which haven´t confronted them. They gain respect through fights and of course by numbers, Mapogo coalition was a big one demanding respect from smaller coalitions. And yes, of course they knew how to fight, but any lion meeting 2 others (or more) which choose to fight, is in big trouble and victory isn´t guaranteed. In all threads there has been some room for speculation, when it has been clearly said, what is speculation and what is proven fact(s). I don´t see any big problems if there is discussion like that and facts and speculation are separated. So fact is, that Rasta vanished suddenly and no-one knows what was the reason. Naturally he most certainly was killed for some reason. If not caused by people, then possible probable reasons are fight with other lion or lions, mortal injury while hunting or being sloppy and got stomped or gored by some big hervbivore(s) in some other situation, that´s life of a lion. My advice is just to separate facts and speculation, but not to deny speculation when there is some reasoning too. Not just wild guesses or totally empty claims. When a male lion disappears and it´s known, that rival males are moving in close range, I can´t see it unreasonable to assume, that rival males could be the reason, it happens all the time.
This debate is very sterile and useless. It seems to bring out a lot of misunderstanding and acrimony. I don't think anyone can prove or disprove anything at this point: most of the debate is emotional and just outright juvenile.
I value everyone's contribution on this broad and I encourage everyone to focus on the lions that are living and breathing. (03-17-2020, 02:06 AM)Matimbalani Wrote: This debate is very sterile and useless. It seems to bring out a lot of misunderstanding and acrimony. I don't think anyone can prove or disprove anything at this point: most of the debate is emotional and just outright juvenile. Excellent conclusion and proposal.
This is from Londolozi blog discussion thread in which some people gave comments and told, that Rasta would have been killed by Majingilanes. Here is what Adam Bannister wrote in discussion thread:
Adam Bannister Member Guest Okay, well firstly thank you so much to everyone for responding. This post has been up for about 20 hours and has had already had a huge response. I have collated information from blog, facebook and emails and have established that another 5 lions need to be added to the list as seen above in the text… So this is the list as it stands so far (please feel free to keep adding, subtracting or questioning this as this is the only way we will get a clear idea of the impact they have had.) 2 Mapogo Males 4 Tsalala Youngsters 1 Sparta Female 1 Sparta sub-adult Male 3 Breakaway Sparta Youngsters 1 Southern Pride/Selati Male 1 Male from the 2 + 1 Pride 1 Styx adult Female 2 Styx sub-adult Females = 16 lions Can anyone give clarity about whether they have had any impact on the Toulon Males. In terms of the Golf Course Male, we basically watched him deteriorate and die. The Majingilane may have influenced his death but I don’t think his death came as a result of a Majingi tooth or claw So also Bannister keeps it probable, that Rasta was killed in fight with Majingilanes here. I have no idea if he has changed his mind after this. If someone has doubts, read this: https://blog.londolozi.com/2011/06/30/majingilane-coalition-one-year-down-the-lion/ Now then what comes to discussion overall. This thread is about Mapogos. With Rasta, situation is that he disappeared and there isn´t 100% certainty about his destiny. So people speculate. When we look at male lions in their prime, there aren´t too many reasons why a prime male lion just vanish. 1. People, someone shot a lion etc. 2. Other lion or lions, many males die in fights with rival lions/coalitions. Maybe most probable reason to assume, when some animal disappears like Rasta did. 3. Some unlucky incident with some big herbivore, elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, giraffe etc. 4. Confrontation with some other predator. Big crocodile in deep water (in areas where rivers with crocodiles) might be one even though I´ve never heard about such case, actually surprising a bit. Big clan of hyenas, even though very unlikely scenario when talking about healthy adult male lion. If a prime male lion dies in fight with another predator, there simply is almost only one real possibility, another lion (In Africa at least). So how did Rasta die.... everyone can think which one above is most probable. I assume personally, that he met another male lion/lions. Speculation, but in this thread some speculation has to be allowed, when it´s with reasoning. We can´t deny civilized discussion from people, who are interested about these lions and like to change thoughts. There is no need to be emotional really. One can keep one theory more probable, someone else thinks that some other theory is closer to the truth. In situation like this different people can say what they assume that happened and why, then people who read can decide themselves what they keep as the most probable. (03-17-2020, 02:19 PM)AbcXyz Wrote: For people who still believe in a fight between Mapogos and Majingilanes after Kinky Tail's death I suggest this useful writing from March 2, 2011: https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-mapogos-lions-of-sabi-sand/the-myth-rasta-the-missing-mapogo/1705143389787135/?__tn__=HH-R You can see PB's ugly wounds and obviously they did not come out from nowhere. (03-18-2020, 12:26 AM)AbcXyz Wrote:(03-17-2020, 07:47 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is from Londolozi blog discussion thread in which some people gave comments and told, that Rasta would have been killed by Majingilanes. Here is what Adam Bannister wrote in discussion thread: First Bannister was very important, now then when you see something you don´t like, you don´t care. Think a moment now how you make yourself to look like. Then again, read that blog and all comments, typo there? Not looking like to be so. But of course if Bannister is as you say, meaningless person when talking about Mapogos... interesting. You don´t need to agree to my support for some speculation, but you need to change your attitude if you want to participate to discussion here. You demean now other posters with no reason, like your latest reply to potato. If you can´t write with reasoning and if you keep showing animosity towards posters who tell what they think in civilized way, then here is a problem. You are free to say what you think, that happened to Rasta, what made it to disappear. But if you still try to demean other posters with no good reason, that will be stopped. (03-18-2020, 01:51 AM)AbcXyz Wrote:(03-18-2020, 12:37 AM)Shadow Wrote:(03-18-2020, 12:26 AM)AbcXyz Wrote:(03-17-2020, 07:47 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is from Londolozi blog discussion thread in which some people gave comments and told, that Rasta would have been killed by Majingilanes. Here is what Adam Bannister wrote in discussion thread: You act like you would be some well known Mapogo expert, but you lack now a lot of reasoning. Do you find it unrealistic to assume, that a male lion which suddenly disappear has been killed by some other lion or lions? I don´t see any reason to call anyone back from anywhere when discussing about such possibility. And if you don´t want to participate to some discussion, then don´t. Others are still allowed to do it. This isn´t your thread, this is open to all who are interested about Mapogos and want to discuss about that coalition.
Othawa males by November/December at Leopard Hills
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