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The Matimba coalition
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 (08-18-2024, 03:08 PM)Mohawk Wrote:(09-27-2021, 01:49 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(09-26-2021, 09:55 PM)Mohawk Wrote: @Tr1x24 @Timbavati @Potato Since the Torchwood Pride is not followed at all by rangers/guides, we are not sure how many of the S. Matimba offspring reached adulthood. At the very least, one daughter and son did for sure and had offspring.... There could be more. The lone male that made it has sired many cubs with 2 other males in Kruger in about 3 prides, becoming very successful males. The daughter, Smudge Nose, has had surviving cubs and was seen alive up until at least 8 years old... No recent photos of her though. They both look much more like HB Matimba than Ginger.  (12-03-2024, 02:36 PM)KM600 Wrote:(12-03-2024, 02:21 PM)DE_66 Wrote: Southern Matimbas used it successfully against the Majingis. HB gave Ginger time to escape but was briefly caught if I remember correctly. I for sure remember that Londolozi ranger who was a big time Majingilane fan basically clowned the Matimbas for not going out in a 4v2 blaze of glory, but I respect HB for saving his brother and living to fight another day. @KM600 Moving this to the Matimba thread to avoid further clogging the behemoth that is the Sabi Sands thread. You're referring to the previous tactic @Tr1x24 said was T/KT vs Majingis, if it's from the N. Avoca's perspective. I would call it the "bait and switch," luring an overconfident male into a trap. It's possible, but I don't really think that's what happened. I think it's more likely the "fake it 'til you make it," one lion splitting and attempting to lure the trouble away from his partner or pride. HB and Ginger were older when that happened. They weren't the same lions who were willing to go toe-to-toe with the Majingis in 2015 anymore. Not really possible to know what a lion is thinking, but HB suddenly deciding to reclaim his youth and chase 3 males despite knowing Ginger is injured and can't help would have been "out of character" for him. Versus the Tumbelas, he was bluffing and hoped they wouldn't call it. They did, so he abdicated. I don't think there was ever any possibility of it getting past roaring. 13/14 year old HB wasn't looking for a fight, regardless of previous lessons learned.  (12-03-2024, 03:15 PM)DE_66 Wrote: HB and Ginger were older when that happened. They weren't the same lions who were willing to go toe-to-toe with the Majingis in 2015 anymore. Not really possible to know what a lion is thinking, but HB suddenly deciding to reclaim his youth and chase 3 males despite knowing Ginger is injured and can't help would have been "out of character" for him. That is exactly what made that confrontation noteworthy, that an older HB decided to turn around on 3 young males and literally fought them back by himself. It's hard to tell why he did that, one thing was clear that had the young Avocas gotten their hands on a helpless Ginger, it would have been a painful way to go. I think all coalition members feel a certain level of obligation to save their partners, I have seen countless videos where the second male repeatedly comes back to try to do something, but only goes as far as distracting from a distance when they don't feel confident enough to join the fight. HB could have done this too and it would have been a wise decision too, but he did the much braver thing and decided to engage the 3 Avocas. What I would like to know is if a stronger bond means between two males means they will go to further lengths to stand and fight. I don't think the answer is too clear. 
Confidence and bond definitely plays the major roles.
Young Avoca watched Guernsey getting killed from a distance, if they had a stronger bond it's quite possible he would try something like younger, weaker 1/2 Fourways briefly attacked HB and got his attention leaving only Ginger with the other 4ways. Or how that Addo Boy tried to save his brother, attacking Mono from behind, briefly. Or the most well-known and impressive case of Mr.T with the Majingis, savagely attacking one of the enemies and only retreating when he was ganged up by 2. In a 2v2, I think that if the losing coalition is still well bonded and aren't pushovers, chances are big that even after being split and 1/2 caught, the other will return to try to save his partner. A recent example would be the last PCM-Ndhzenga clash, when the PCM turns back and split the Ndhzenga, if they caught one, I doubt the other wouldn't try something to help once he realizes what's happening. 
I think Mohawk saved blondie from being killed by the ndzengas then mr T and makuhuku saved pretty boy from the selatis… I’m not sure if Dozie tried to save blondie from the mapogo but I think it all depends on age confidence and bond look at vurhami Mo and his brothers I don’t think they tried to save eachother at all they just got picked off one by one and that was an age and confidence thing I believe… then the southern avocas attacked dreadlocks the nkhulu males didn’t try to save dreadlocks
 (12-03-2024, 09:57 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Confidence and bond definitely plays the major roles. The Addo Boys situation was hard to watch, made even more so because of what you mentioned, the one returning to try and help his brother. I will remain convinced that the remaining S Avoca was with his brother in his final moments, given his condition and injuries right after he disappeared. I also believe that so long as they are within ear shot of a given situation, none of the three main powerhouses in Sabi Sands (Nwas, PCMs, and Gijimas) would stand by as their brother was being attacked, if they could hear it, they would absolutely respond. That is what always surprised me about the Mjejane situation. I am of the impression that at least one brother was near-by, and the third was off mating, but possibly was also within ear shot. If true, it is surprising, as I would always have expected those boys to respond in that same way.  (12-03-2024, 10:24 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: I’m not sure if Dozie tried to save blondie from the mapogo but I think it all depends on age confidenceI think he did, but Blondie's spine was broken and well... Not much to be done in a '2' against 5 (12-03-2024, 10:24 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: then the southern avocas attacked dreadlocks the nkhulu males didn’t try to save dreadlocksNot their brother so it could be they never have such bond with him, no wonder he was usually apart. Not to mention the age and confidence you well mentioned. In both cases (Nkuhlu and Vurhami) i think both parties were fairly young and not confident enough to back up their partners. I think Vurhamis and Kambulas are the only coalitions i recall that had their brothers mauled multiple times within a 'short' span of time.
Also with the matimbas we know nduna was from another pride but he was their cousin… so are hairy belly and ginger littermates or they just close in age and that’s why they stayed together. Mr T and kinky tail littermates stayed together k3 k4 k5 stayed together not sure about whiteface shake and slitnose either
Vurhami were very young, some not even 4yo it seemed, and were against 3 monstrosities, I only "blame" them for sticking around and roaring, nothing else.
Kambulas are 4 big primed brothers against strong, but still only 2 males coalitions. In the case of the Nkhulu, I think it was similar to the Majingilane scenario, they didn't save Delaporte after being ambushed and split, but soon after ( questions of days at best ) the Avocas left their territory and moved several km away and it's unlikely simple passive pressure caused it just after such decisive S.Avoca victory. Nkuhlu quite possibly regrouped and launched a counter-attack chasing the Avocas off. As for Matimbas, very unlikely for Ginger to be HB's littermates as he seems to be several months older. Despite HB having arguably the most impressive mane of any of the Matimba, he was barely developed in mid-2011, only a small mohawk, while Ginger had already a mostly fully-developed mane on the top. White Face was much closer to HB in development at that time so it's more likely he was littermate, though also possible HB had no littermate brothers, we have pics of Matimbas and sisters aa big cubs in October 2006, but HB only shows up in March or May 2007, and too small to be as old as the other siblings from previous photos. While I think littermates have a bigger chance of having a stronger bond, sometimes other males within a coalition just click better despite not being born together, we've to keep in mind that they are introduced to one another at a very young age and basically spend almost their entire lives together, regardless if they are littermates or not. 
I don’t believe Hairy Belly & Ginger were littermates, from my understanding of the Marimbas and piecing together bits and pieces of information over the years I would describe the make up of their coalition as the below;
Ndhuna leader and oldest male was their cousin (also sired by Skybed Males from another pride). Shaka and Ginger potential litter mates and the 2 oldest males of the younger 5. Then Slit Nose who looks fairly unique and different to the rest, then I think White Face and Hairy Belly may have been the two youngest and also litter mates. I come to these conclusions from information I’ve read from credible sources, similar appearance of the males mentioned and also their size and mane development when the Matimbas were young and nomadic males. Could be wrong, just my opinion and people are entitled to disagree if they feel differently or can prove otherwise. One thing that is clear though is the bond became strongest between HB and Ginger in the end as they ended up splitting from the rest of their brothers after the disappearance of Ndhuna and then as they say, the rest is history.
Gotcha! I just find it fascinating how coalitions split up and who goes with who like the black dam males they split up and now 3 of the 4 northern brothers are together all the time and the 4th is on his own and the 2 southern brothers one left the other and with the black dam males I believe 9 males where born into the black dam pride but only 6 survived
If I were to guess, I'd say Slitnose was the oldest with Shaka possibly being the same age or born around the same time, maybe littermate. Ginger maybe a little bit younger or also born around the same time. WF either younger or he was slow to develop.
We have to keep in mind that it is far from unlikely for littermate cats to have different fathers. Look-wise, for instance, K5 seems to have different father from his 2 littermates, same with Mr.T and KT from the Mapogo. But I believe the white-faced Old Skybed was likely father to most of the Matimba, at least HB, Ginger and WF "for sure", maybe Ndhuna and Shaka as well, but the less-known third Skybed also has a decent shot with Ndhuna and Shaka I think. Boss Skybed very likely ST's father, they are very similar, him and his less know brother probably sired most of the young Skybeds, going by looks. It's worth noticing though, that it is speculated that the 3 Old Skybeds were sons of the Birmingham pride males that they ousted, and looking at a photo of 1/3 Old Skybed with a Birmingham female who looks a lot like Slitnose Matimba and 1/2 Mbiri Matimba daughter and Scar Mbiri, I don't doubt it, she could even be ST's mother and at least half-sister to Boss Skybed. But anyway the point is that the inbreeding may go so far back that guessing parentage by looks may be more unreliable than what normally it already is. (12-04-2024, 09:10 PM)adamstocks16 Wrote: I don’t believe Hairy Belly & Ginger were littermates, from my understanding of the Marimbas and piecing together bits and pieces of information over the years I would describe the make up of their coalition as the below; Hi four Matimbas, Southern Matimbas, oldest Matimba and slit nose went to Sabi sand around t, mak and other lion. Wouldn’t that most likely mean the four were the oldest? Also southern Matimbas lasted longer but with Othowas. The three Matimbas in Kruger were around more lions. Southern Matimbas maybe older.
@Guillermo94 Often this can be the case but not necessarily. If you take some examples from well known large coalitions a pattern can be seen in terms of the level of ‘bond’ between certain brothers usually ones who are littermates or closer in age. The Matimbas are probably an exception to the general rule in this respect.
Some of the best examples I can think of to prove this theory would be most obviously Kinky Tail and Mr T from Mapogos, Smudge and Snip Tail from Nkhulus, Amahle and Eorenji from Ndhzengas, then also a few from Maasai Mara with Black Rock boys you had Oloshipa and Olobor the two oldest and enforcers then also Oloimina and Lorkulup the two youngest and ‘family men’ who often stick with the pride. Also Baba Yao and Doa from Bila Shaka coalition were two oldest males and had the closest bond, none of them are with us now unfortunately. Perhaps another example more similar to the Matimbas might be Majingilane as it was often said how close Dark Mane and Scar Nose were although Golden Mane was very likely to be a littermate or even twin to Scar Nose so would have expected those two to have the strongest bond. As many people on this forum have said before, fascinating to observe these dynamics and relationships even within coalitions and trying to come to a conclusion why we are observing this behaviour and the reasons for it. |
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