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The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

United States tigerluver Offline
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Bergmann's rule is simply not that accurate as more data rolled in historically and the assumptions made by the rule are much too volatile and to a degree paradoxical. Cold regions are hostile to high biomass and diversity as compared to warmer regions usually, thus the assumptions of the Bergmann's rule are very difficult to meet. For instance, P. atrox and P. spelaea from Alaska were rather small compared to the counterparts in California and Germany, respectively. 

Copious fossil data shows that P. atrox was definitely larger than the late Pleistocene P. spelaea. This as of yet cannot be argued as there are relatively plenty of fossils for these species. P. fossilis, on the other hand, seems to have matched and surpassed P. atrox. Do note that P. fossilis is a very likely candidate to be the progenitor group of P. atrox.

Lastly, the idea of being further northern would be less accurate than saying the further one goes from the equator. Remember, temperature, the factor behind Bergmann's rule, drops as one moves toward both poles.
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( This post was last modified: 11-19-2017, 10:35 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(11-19-2017, 10:20 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Bergmann's rule is simply not that accurate as more data rolled in historically and the assumptions made by the rule are much too volatile and to a degree paradoxical. Cold regions are hostile to high biomass and diversity as compared to warmer regions usually, thus the assumptions of the Bergmann's rule are very difficult to meet. For instance, P. atrox and P. spelaea from Alaska were rather small compared to the counterparts in California and Germany, respectively. 

Copious fossil data shows that P. atrox was definitely larger than the late Pleistocene P. spelaea. This as of yet cannot be argued as there are relatively plenty of fossils for these species. P. fossilis, on the other hand, seems to have matched and surpassed P. atrox. Do note that P. fossilis is a very likely candidate to be the progenitor group of P. atrox.

Lastly, the idea of being further northern would be less accurate than saying the further one goes from the equator. Remember, temperature, the factor behind Bergmann's rule, drops as one moves toward both poles.

Now it has been widely theorized that Panthera atrox could have spawned from the Panthera fossilis population in East Asia, namely Panthera (fossilis) youngi.

Since now they are already a lot of confirmed fossil records of Panthera fossilis in Asia, and the timeline of Panthera youngi also seems to fill the void perfectly to precede Panthera atrox.

If this hypothesis is correct, then Panthera youngi could be served as a right bridge to connect the missing link between Panthera fossilis and Panthera atrox.
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United States Polar Online
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@GrizzlyClaws,


Ah, sorry, forgot to account for the relatively higher levels of genetic mixing in Amurs. Genes are important as well.
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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(11-19-2017, 10:30 AM)Polar Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws,


Ah, sorry, forgot to account for the relatively higher levels of genetic mixing in Amurs. Genes are important as well.

The Amur tiger has also showed quite diversity, from the mildly sized Korean tiger to the gargantuan Manchurian tiger.

Some group must have showed higher level of genetic throwback to the prehistoric population than others.
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(11-19-2017, 09:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: When we make size comparisons between Cave lions (P.fossilis and Pspelaea) and American lion, probably there are too scenarios:

1. IF two carnivores  from same clade enjoy SIMILAR abundance of food, SIMILAR prey base, the carnivore inhabiting Northern and colder latitudes will grow larger,more massive.

2 IF the carnivore inhabiting more Southern and warmer latitudes enjoys MORE abundant food resources, MORE prey base than the carnivore from same clade inhabiting to the North due to scarcity of prey in that northern region than the case is getting a bit more complicated, but probably too animals would be similar in size, as now we can see from Bengal and Siberian tigers, which are roughy equal in size. Bengal has in his side great abundance of food, Amur - Bergman's rule.

In other words Cave lions (fossilis and spelaea) who had inhabited subarctic regions of the Earth - Siberia, Alaska, Beringia could be or larger or same in size to P.atrox, who inhabited continental United States but they cant be smaller then him. No way. To rich compromise we probably could state that Cave lions and American lion are roughly equal in size.

1. Genetic lineage also plays an important part in determining size, even if temperature changes. Amur tigers, as described by @GrizzlyClaws description in post #107, is an example of this. Amur tigers are pretty genetically varied within their own domain as well: large Manchurian giants vs smaller inner-Korean counterparts. Genetic variance is either a positive or negative depending on how one looks at it.


2. This is much more true, although genes still play an important role. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of how much of a difference more abundant food resources affects potential size, which is, in turn, tied into genetics. Extinct Sunda tigers had more robustness due to the need to hunt larger prey and from their internal genetics. Amur tigers (and Wanhsien tiger in Siberia) were/are smaller than the extinct Sunda tigers mostly because of genes and the difference of environment. Note that back then, Siberia was rich with prey before human expansion.
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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( This post was last modified: 11-19-2017, 10:50 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(11-19-2017, 10:40 AM)Polar Wrote:
(11-19-2017, 09:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: When we make size comparisons between Cave lions (P.fossilis and Pspelaea) and American lion, probably there are too scenarios:

1. IF two carnivores  from same clade enjoy SIMILAR abundance of food, SIMILAR prey base, the carnivore inhabiting Northern and colder latitudes will grow larger,more massive.

2 IF the carnivore inhabiting more Southern and warmer latitudes enjoys MORE abundant food resources, MORE prey base than the carnivore from same clade inhabiting to the North due to scarcity of prey in that northern region than the case is getting a bit more complicated, but probably too animals would be similar in size, as now we can see from Bengal and Siberian tigers, which are roughy equal in size. Bengal has in his side great abundance of food, Amur - Bergman's rule.

In other words Cave lions (fossilis and spelaea) who had inhabited subarctic regions of the Earth - Siberia, Alaska, Beringia could be or larger or same in size to P.atrox, who inhabited continental United States but they cant be smaller then him. No way. To rich compromise we probably could state that Cave lions and American lion are roughly equal in size.

1. Genetic lineage also plays an important part in determining size, even if temperature changes. Amur tigers, as described by @GrizzlyClaws description in post #107, is an example of this. Amur tigers are pretty genetically varied within their own domain as well: large Manchurian giants vs smaller inner-Korean counterparts. Genetic variance is either a positive or negative depending on how one looks at it.


2. This is much more true, although genes still play an important role. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of how much of a difference more abundant food resources affects potential size, which is, in turn, tied into genetics. Extinct Sunda tigers had more robustness due to the need to hunt larger prey and from their internal genetics. Amur tigers (and Wanhsien tiger in Siberia) were/are smaller than the extinct Sunda tigers mostly because of genes and the difference of environment. Note that back then, Siberia was rich with prey before human expansion.

The hybridization could also trigger the potential gigantism.

For example, the Amur tiger is genetically confirmed to be the offspring population of the Caspian tiger, but there were possibly few Amur tiger populations being genetically affected by the autosome of the northern population of the Wanhsien tiger. The Bengal tiger in Northeast India is just a also prime example of hybridization with Indochinese tiger that becomes larger.

Some Amur tigers could have been genetically affected by the autosome of the Wanhsien tiger, even though their Y-DNA and mtDNA are both descended from the Caspian tiger.
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United States Polar Online
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(11-19-2017, 10:49 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(11-19-2017, 10:40 AM)Polar Wrote:
(11-19-2017, 09:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: When we make size comparisons between Cave lions (P.fossilis and Pspelaea) and American lion, probably there are too scenarios:

1. IF two carnivores  from same clade enjoy SIMILAR abundance of food, SIMILAR prey base, the carnivore inhabiting Northern and colder latitudes will grow larger,more massive.

2 IF the carnivore inhabiting more Southern and warmer latitudes enjoys MORE abundant food resources, MORE prey base than the carnivore from same clade inhabiting to the North due to scarcity of prey in that northern region than the case is getting a bit more complicated, but probably too animals would be similar in size, as now we can see from Bengal and Siberian tigers, which are roughy equal in size. Bengal has in his side great abundance of food, Amur - Bergman's rule.

In other words Cave lions (fossilis and spelaea) who had inhabited subarctic regions of the Earth - Siberia, Alaska, Beringia could be or larger or same in size to P.atrox, who inhabited continental United States but they cant be smaller then him. No way. To rich compromise we probably could state that Cave lions and American lion are roughly equal in size.

1. Genetic lineage also plays an important part in determining size, even if temperature changes. Amur tigers, as described by @GrizzlyClaws description in post #107, is an example of this. Amur tigers are pretty genetically varied within their own domain as well: large Manchurian giants vs smaller inner-Korean counterparts. Genetic variance is either a positive or negative depending on how one looks at it.


2. This is much more true, although genes still play an important role. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of how much of a difference more abundant food resources affects potential size, which is, in turn, tied into genetics. Extinct Sunda tigers had more robustness due to the need to hunt larger prey and from their internal genetics. Amur tigers (and Wanhsien tiger in Siberia) were/are smaller than the extinct Sunda tigers mostly because of genes and the difference of environment. Note that back then, Siberia was rich with prey before human expansion.

The hybridization could also trigger the potential gigantism.

For example, the Amur tiger is genetically confirmed to be the offspring population of the Caspian tiger, but there were possibly few Amur tiger populations being genetically affected by the autosome of the northern population of the Wanhsien tiger. The Bengal tiger in Northeast India is just a also prime example of hybridization with Indochinese tiger that becomes larger.

Some Amur tigers could have been genetically affected by the autosome of the Wanhsien tiger, even though their Y-DNA and mtDNA are both descended from the Caspian tiger.

From what I've researched, there have been many tiger subspecies that have at least reached Siberia a couple times: Caspian, Wanhsien, maybe a bit of mainland Bengal through the Altai Mountains. Maybe the Cave lions in Siberia could have inter-mixed with the tigers there, or no evidence for that?
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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( This post was last modified: 11-19-2017, 12:03 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

Caspian tiger: The genetically confirmed progenitor of the Amur tiger.

Wanhsien tiger: Could have a played a significant role in the gene pool of the Amur tiger. It is the possible that the leftover population of the Wanhsien tiger could have been absorbed by the late arrival Caspian tiger. Even it is possible that we won't find any trace of the Wanhsien tiger in the Y-DNA and mtDNA of the modern Amur tiger, but it is still possible that their autosome is still there and played a significant role for Amur tiger's appearance alteration from its Caspian ancestor.

Bengal tiger: Its expansion was quite late, most likely some northern population of the Bengal tigers being genetically affected by the Caspian tiger from Central Asia, not the other way around.

Cave lion: It is nearly impossible for a lion and tiger to interbreed in the wild. So I doubt some morphological resemblance to tiger was the result of interspecies hybridization.

BTW, Panthera spelaea looked morphologically quite different from Panthera fossilis, so it was possible that they were not necessarily the pure descendant of Panthera fossilis, could have been hybridization with other unknown ancient lion population. And Panthera atrox on the other hand did look like a pure descendant of Panthera fossilis.
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( This post was last modified: 11-19-2017, 11:04 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

@Polar

The interbreeding is only possible between two closely related species within the same genus. Lion and tiger although belong to the same genus, but they are genetically the most far away between each other. Therefore, the interbreeding is less likely in the wild.

For instance, the Y-DNA of the Polar bear has been discovered with some unknown ancient lineage, and this ancient lineage could have possibly belonged to the Cave bear.

If this turns out to be true, then the formation of the Polar bear was created via the hybridization between the male Cave bear and female Brown bear. Not just for the environmental adaption, but the hybridization could be the main factor that triggered the radical appearance shift of the Polar bear from the Brown bear.

So if they use the genome of the modern lion to clone the Cave lion, although the clone would be hybridized, but it should still be a functionally viable species that is capable to reproduce just like the naturally hybridized Polar bear, unlike sterile the liger.
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