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Pckts · 02-06-2022, 09:16 PM

(02-06-2022, 02:20 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:55 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:34 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:22 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:10 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

Would agree with most part except the cattle killer thing, that´s a baseless argument.

For all I know, that lion was a well reputed cattle killer.
Depends on the location, same as Tigers. But for Lions in E. Africa for instance, cattle killing will not be tolerated by the Masai. They’ll hunt down any Lion that kills their cattle and take any cat they can find. It’s pretty crazy when you’re driving through the Serengeti and you see children walking their livestock by themselves with little worry of Lions attacking since they’ve been trained to not take their cattle. But in Botswana they take cattle much more often.
Were the things same in 90s? The research paper said he was one of 7 or 8 lions who had serious reputation as cattle killers

No idea,
I’m just speaking on the Serengeti/Crater.
I’m sure he was definitely bulked up on cattle. You see that with most cattle killers, generally they have more of a soft appearance from the easy kills. Also his skull is large but not the top tier which again leads me to believe he was probably a bit overweight. But regardless he was a massive lion, no doubt about it.

Note the skull was one of the biggest. A small look at the skull should be enough to understand that it was pretty robust. For a east african lions 387mm is really long and 267mm is equal to the RECORD width for wild lions. But his skull overall is extremely broad. The skeleton of that lion was also pretty long and really robust according to the guys who observed the skeleton. The lion had a total length of 300+ cm looking at the answer from Richard Kock to the user Waveriders.

Even with good amount of food..... no one reached 272 kg. For such a weight good genetics are a must have and especially body size. Also lions in that weight category are nearly always overweights except some really long individuals

There are multiple 400mm Lion skulls if I remember correctly and the claim of 300+ cm length isn’t valid, estimating length based on a visual observation scaled against your vehicle holds no weight.

The weight is obviously impressive and the Lion itself is top tier, there’s no doubt about it.

~~SpinoRex~~ · 02-06-2022, 10:57 PM

(02-06-2022, 09:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 02:20 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:55 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:34 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:22 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:10 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

Would agree with most part except the cattle killer thing, that´s a baseless argument.

For all I know, that lion was a well reputed cattle killer.
Depends on the location, same as Tigers. But for Lions in E. Africa for instance, cattle killing will not be tolerated by the Masai. They’ll hunt down any Lion that kills their cattle and take any cat they can find. It’s pretty crazy when you’re driving through the Serengeti and you see children walking their livestock by themselves with little worry of Lions attacking since they’ve been trained to not take their cattle. But in Botswana they take cattle much more often.
Were the things same in 90s? The research paper said he was one of 7 or 8 lions who had serious reputation as cattle killers

No idea,
I’m just speaking on the Serengeti/Crater.
I’m sure he was definitely bulked up on cattle. You see that with most cattle killers, generally they have more of a soft appearance from the easy kills. Also his skull is large but not the top tier which again leads me to believe he was probably a bit overweight. But regardless he was a massive lion, no doubt about it.

Note the skull was one of the biggest. A small look at the skull should be enough to understand that it was pretty robust. For a east african lions 387mm is really long and 267mm is equal to the RECORD width for wild lions. But his skull overall is extremely broad. The skeleton of that lion was also pretty long and really robust according to the guys who observed the skeleton. The lion had a total length of 300+ cm looking at the answer from Richard Kock to the user Waveriders.

Even with good amount of food..... no one reached 272 kg. For such a weight good genetics are a must have and especially body size. Also lions in that weight category are nearly always overweights except some really long individuals

There are multiple 400mm Lion skulls if I remember correctly and the claim of 300+ cm length isn’t valid, estimating length based on a visual observation scaled against your vehicle holds no weight.

The weight is obviously impressive and the Lion itself is top tier, there’s no doubt about it.

These skulls came from the lions more located in the sourthern areas. Thats the reason why 387mm for east african lion is pretty large and even for kruger lions its at least 7mm above the average.

Finally i was able to find it. Here it is.

Quote:“We carried the animal back on the roof rack of my 110 Land Rover which extended along the whole roof length of the vehicle and I recall the nose was at the front and the tail could hang over the back. If you check the 110 Land Rover dimensions you can get a rough idea of the nose to tail base length”

I remind that the wheelbase of the Land Rover Defender 110 measures 2794 mm and the roof has virtually the same length. Based on the suggestions from Prof. Kock the 272 kg lion could have easily had an equivalent total length in straight line between pegs well in excess of 300 cm and therefore a probable head-and-body length in excess of 205 cm in straight line between pegs.

It should at least give an idea of how large this male was

Pckts · 02-06-2022, 11:18 PM

(02-06-2022, 10:57 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 09:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 02:20 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:55 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:34 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:22 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:10 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

Would agree with most part except the cattle killer thing, that´s a baseless argument.

For all I know, that lion was a well reputed cattle killer.
Depends on the location, same as Tigers. But for Lions in E. Africa for instance, cattle killing will not be tolerated by the Masai. They’ll hunt down any Lion that kills their cattle and take any cat they can find. It’s pretty crazy when you’re driving through the Serengeti and you see children walking their livestock by themselves with little worry of Lions attacking since they’ve been trained to not take their cattle. But in Botswana they take cattle much more often.
Were the things same in 90s? The research paper said he was one of 7 or 8 lions who had serious reputation as cattle killers

No idea,
I’m just speaking on the Serengeti/Crater.
I’m sure he was definitely bulked up on cattle. You see that with most cattle killers, generally they have more of a soft appearance from the easy kills. Also his skull is large but not the top tier which again leads me to believe he was probably a bit overweight. But regardless he was a massive lion, no doubt about it.

Note the skull was one of the biggest. A small look at the skull should be enough to understand that it was pretty robust. For a east african lions 387mm is really long and 267mm is equal to the RECORD width for wild lions. But his skull overall is extremely broad. The skeleton of that lion was also pretty long and really robust according to the guys who observed the skeleton. The lion had a total length of 300+ cm looking at the answer from Richard Kock to the user Waveriders.

Even with good amount of food..... no one reached 272 kg. For such a weight good genetics are a must have and especially body size. Also lions in that weight category are nearly always overweights except some really long individuals

There are multiple 400mm Lion skulls if I remember correctly and the claim of 300+ cm length isn’t valid, estimating length based on a visual observation scaled against your vehicle holds no weight.

The weight is obviously impressive and the Lion itself is top tier, there’s no doubt about it.

These skulls came from the lions more located in the sourthern areas. Thats the reason why 387mm for east african lion is pretty large and even for kruger lions its at least 7mm above the average.

Finally i was able to find it. Here it is.

Quote:“We carried the animal back on the roof rack of my 110 Land Rover which extended along the whole roof length of the vehicle and I recall the nose was at the front and the tail could hang over the back. If you check the 110 Land Rover dimensions you can get a rough idea of the nose to tail base length”

I remind that the wheelbase of the Land Rover Defender 110 measures 2794 mm and the roof has virtually the same length. Based on the suggestions from Prof. Kock the 272 kg lion could have easily had an equivalent total length in straight line between pegs well in excess of 300 cm and therefore a probable head-and-body length in excess of 205 cm in straight line between pegs.

It should at least give an idea of how large this male was

Wheel base is wider than the roof, it has fender flares which extend outside the roof as well. It also sounds like he’s saying vertically not horizontally.
And again that’s not a reliable measurement.
Also, even if we say the tail is 100cm, 200cm hbl is considered large but nothing extraordinary, it’d still be within the range of large male lions.

~~SpinoRex~~ · 02-07-2022, 12:04 AM

(02-06-2022, 11:18 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 10:57 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 09:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 02:20 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:55 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:34 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:22 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 01:10 AM)Khan85 Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

Would agree with most part except the cattle killer thing, that´s a baseless argument.

For all I know, that lion was a well reputed cattle killer.
Depends on the location, same as Tigers. But for Lions in E. Africa for instance, cattle killing will not be tolerated by the Masai. They’ll hunt down any Lion that kills their cattle and take any cat they can find. It’s pretty crazy when you’re driving through the Serengeti and you see children walking their livestock by themselves with little worry of Lions attacking since they’ve been trained to not take their cattle. But in Botswana they take cattle much more often.
Were the things same in 90s? The research paper said he was one of 7 or 8 lions who had serious reputation as cattle killers

No idea,
I’m just speaking on the Serengeti/Crater.
I’m sure he was definitely bulked up on cattle. You see that with most cattle killers, generally they have more of a soft appearance from the easy kills. Also his skull is large but not the top tier which again leads me to believe he was probably a bit overweight. But regardless he was a massive lion, no doubt about it.

Note the skull was one of the biggest. A small look at the skull should be enough to understand that it was pretty robust. For a east african lions 387mm is really long and 267mm is equal to the RECORD width for wild lions. But his skull overall is extremely broad. The skeleton of that lion was also pretty long and really robust according to the guys who observed the skeleton. The lion had a total length of 300+ cm looking at the answer from Richard Kock to the user Waveriders.

Even with good amount of food..... no one reached 272 kg. For such a weight good genetics are a must have and especially body size. Also lions in that weight category are nearly always overweights except some really long individuals

There are multiple 400mm Lion skulls if I remember correctly and the claim of 300+ cm length isn’t valid, estimating length based on a visual observation scaled against your vehicle holds no weight.

The weight is obviously impressive and the Lion itself is top tier, there’s no doubt about it.

These skulls came from the lions more located in the sourthern areas. Thats the reason why 387mm for east african lion is pretty large and even for kruger lions its at least 7mm above the average.

Finally i was able to find it. Here it is.

Quote:“We carried the animal back on the roof rack of my 110 Land Rover which extended along the whole roof length of the vehicle and I recall the nose was at the front and the tail could hang over the back. If you check the 110 Land Rover dimensions you can get a rough idea of the nose to tail base length”

I remind that the wheelbase of the Land Rover Defender 110 measures 2794 mm and the roof has virtually the same length. Based on the suggestions from Prof. Kock the 272 kg lion could have easily had an equivalent total length in straight line between pegs well in excess of 300 cm and therefore a probable head-and-body length in excess of 205 cm in straight line between pegs.

It should at least give an idea of how large this male was
Wheel base is wider than the roof, it has fender flares which extend outside the roof as well. It also sounds like he’s saying vertically not horizontally.
And again that’s not a reliable measurement.
Also, even if we say the tail is 100cm, 200cm hbl is considered large but nothing extraordinary, it’d still be within the range of large male lions.

Therefore i said just a idea of how big he must have been

peter · 02-07-2022, 09:30 PM

(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

Our former member 'WaveRiders' informed us about the skull of the cattlelifter some years ago during a debate. He had been to Kenya himself and posted a number of photographs of the skull of the lion. The, interesting, debate was on this forum. Most unfortunately, I don't remember the thread.

I've seen lion skulls of similar size or a bit longer, but they were not as robust. Same for the skull of a very large and robust captive male lion that died in 1974 during a transport in the Netherlands. He was measured by Dr. P. van Bree himself, meaning the results are very reliable. The lion was 300,7 cm in total length measured 'between pegs' (HB 216,7 cm, Tail 84,0 cm) and 280 kg directly after his death.

I measured and weighed his skull in the former Zoological Museum of Amsterdam in April and November 2004. He's a scan of the table based on the notes I made:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Skull 21903 (No. 14 in the table) was about as long as the skull of the 280 kg lion (skull 16470 - No. 15 in the table), but a bit wider. The skull of the 280 kg lion, however, was more robust, more elevated at the orbit and heavier. Most unfortunately, the skull hadn't been cleaned in the proper way, meaning the 'real 'weight would have been a bit lower.

I compared the photographs posted by 'WaveRiders' with those I made of the skull of the 280 kg captive lion. The skull of the 600-pound cattlelifter seemed to be a bit more robust. Not that strange, as the former owner was quite old when he was shot, whereas the 280 kg lion was in his prime when he perished.

I wasn't aware of Yamaguchi's mail. Thanks for the info, 'SpinoRex'.

GuateGojira · 02-07-2022, 10:11 PM

(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Cattle killers are known to be large, fat and evasive, just like man-eaters. Check the cases of the Tsavo and the Mfuwe lions. We would like to see measurements of the skeleton, that will put weight to the argument, but even then now I understand why Dr Yamaguchi ignored this lion when he compare the biggest lions and tigers in the book of 2010, he consider this specimen as an outlier, a phenomenon and this support my point of view that as this animal was not normal it should not be included in the tables. I will save this email for future references on this.

A skull of 387 cm is not a record on the lion overall data, but definitelly it is for a lion in East Africa. Roosevelt says that is doubthfull if any skull over 15 inches existed in East Africa, and this is supported by the fact that from 15 skulls reported by Roosevelt and 20 reported by Allen and Hollister, the longest was of 380 mm. The zygomatic wide of 267 mm is trully exceptional, as the biggest in that list from East Africa is of 255 mm. This lion was truly a giant and definitelly an outlier specimen.

On the length, that is certainly only an estimation and should be taken like that, not a real measurement at all. Lions over 300 cm are very rare, and from realy big samples, but may happen. Now, in East Africa the lions had relative longer tails than those from South Africa, so a 300 cm lion in Kenya will be smaller than a 300 cm lion in Kruger, for example.

Thanks for sharing this data.

~~SpinoRex~~ · 02-08-2022, 01:54 AM

(02-07-2022, 10:11 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-06-2022, 12:44 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Information regarding Robert kocks 272 kg empty stomach lion revealed by a user on Discord named "YusufTutWlan"
@GrizzlyClaws @peter @GuateGojira

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Cattle killers are known to be large, fat and evasive, just like man-eaters. Check the cases of the Tsavo and the Mfuwe lions. We would like to see measurements of the skeleton, that will put weight to the argument, but even then now I understand why Dr Yamaguchi ignored this lion when he compare the biggest lions and tigers in the book of 2010, he consider this specimen as an outlier, a phenomenon and this support my point of view that as this animal was not normal it should not be included in the tables. I will save this email for future references on this.

A skull of 387 cm is not a record on the lion overall data, but definitelly it is for a lion in East Africa. Roosevelt says that is doubthfull if any skull over 15 inches existed in East Africa, and this is supported by the fact that from 15 skulls reported by Roosevelt and 20 reported by Allen and Hollister, the longest was of 380 mm. The zygomatic wide of 267 mm is trully exceptional, as the biggest in that list from East Africa is of 255 mm. This lion was truly a giant and definitelly an outlier specimen.

On the length, that is certainly only an estimation and should be taken like that, not a real measurement at all. Lions over 300 cm are very rare, and from realy big samples, but may happen. Now, in East Africa the lions had relative longer tails than those from South Africa, so a 300 cm lion in Kenya will be smaller than a 300 cm lion in Kruger, for example.

Thanks for sharing this data.

Well,

That remains for all cats in such a weight class (being overweight) as i said except for these really large ones but even then they need to find that amount of food. I agree with you partly but the lion was proven to be really robust and overaveragely large in terms of body size. So i think he definetely isnt falling in the obese category but more or less overweight. In the old Carnivora forum the user waveriders estimated the length of that lion at around 205 cm based on the skeleton. (If i find the post i will quote it as i wasnt able to find it).

I dont know if you saw it. The ecologist confirmed to me that the Homob male of Pilannesberg weighed 237 kg (Pers com with the Gus van dyk --> Wildlife Biologist and responsible for the wildlife conservation now in Tswalu Kalahari)

@peter yes i know Waveriders analyzed the skull but he didnt provide the measurements. So thankfully Yamaguchi provided it.

For everyone who wants to know contact details from officials in general may use cats org and especially rocketreach.

Regards

GuateGojira · 02-08-2022, 02:44 AM

(02-08-2022, 01:54 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: That remains for all cats in such a weight class (being overweight) as i said except for these really large ones but even then they need to find that amount of food. I agree with you partly but the lion was proven to be really robust and overaveragely large in terms of body size. So i think he definetely isnt falling in the obese category but more or less overweight. In the old Carnivora forum the user waveriders estimated the length of that lion at around 205 cm based on the skeleton. (If i find the post i will quote it as i wasnt able to find it).

I dont know if you saw it. The ecologist confirmed to me that the Homob male of Pilannesberg weighed 237 kg (Pers com with the Gus van dyk --> Wildlife Biologist and responsible for the wildlife conservation now in Tswalu Kalahari)

I did not say "obese", there are not obese wild cats. I say large, fat, bulky, that is more correct for this outsider lion. I did not knew about this "Homob" male from South Africa, sound interesting. Is this a wild or a private reserve? I ask it because in South Africa is very important to know, if not we will get a semi-wild lion included in a real wild sample. Did they recorded if it had stomach content?

About what Waveriders said, honestly I don't care because that guy was more biased than a Russian in the middle of the Cold War. So I prefer to use my data to get the size of that lion, based in skulls, but even then it will be just an estimation, not the real size, and with lions we need to be very carefull as some times there are robust but short animals and others that are longer with light builds, like in any other cat honestly. At the end, any estimation can't be used as a real data, specfically for body size.

~~SpinoRex~~ · 02-08-2022, 03:33 AM

(02-08-2022, 02:44 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 01:54 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: That remains for all cats in such a weight class (being overweight) as i said except for these really large ones but even then they need to find that amount of food. I agree with you partly but the lion was proven to be really robust and overaveragely large in terms of body size. So i think he definetely isnt falling in the obese category but more or less overweight. In the old Carnivora forum the user waveriders estimated the length of that lion at around 205 cm based on the skeleton. (If i find the post i will quote it as i wasnt able to find it).

I dont know if you saw it. The ecologist confirmed to me that the Homob male of Pilannesberg weighed 237 kg (Pers com with the Gus van dyk --> Wildlife Biologist and responsible for the wildlife conservation now in Tswalu Kalahari)

I did not say "obese", there are not obese wild cats. I say large, fat, bulky, that is more correct for this outsider lion. I did not knew about this "Homob" male from South Africa, sound interesting. Is this a wild or a private reserve? I ask it because in South Africa is very important to know, if not we will get a semi-wild lion included in a real wild sample. Did they recorded if it had stomach content?

About what Waveriders said, honestly I don't care because that guy was more biased than a Russian in the middle of the Cold War. So I prefer to use my data to get the size of that lion, based in skulls, but even then it will be just an estimation, not the real size, and with lions we need to be very carefull as some times there are robust but short animals and others that are longer with light builds, like in any other cat honestly. At the end, any estimation can't be used as a real data, specfically for body size.

Generally those reserves called having semi-wild individuals (canned hunting and small area) have very few lions and you can easily seperate them between wild ones. The Homob male was weighed in Pilannesberg National Park and was reported that he ate before he have been weighed.

Though Waverider on that regard i think was helpful. The indications from the land rover and his estimate from the skeleton are torwards a large lion without a doubt however he estimated the height to be 100-105 cm. I saw some of your discussions with him so i can judge really as i just read some posts of him.

~~SpinoRex~~ · 02-08-2022, 03:47 AM

(02-08-2022, 02:44 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 01:54 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: That remains for all cats in such a weight class (being overweight) as i said except for these really large ones but even then they need to find that amount of food. I agree with you partly but the lion was proven to be really robust and overaveragely large in terms of body size. So i think he definetely isnt falling in the obese category but more or less overweight. In the old Carnivora forum the user waveriders estimated the length of that lion at around 205 cm based on the skeleton. (If i find the post i will quote it as i wasnt able to find it).

I dont know if you saw it. The ecologist confirmed to me that the Homob male of Pilannesberg weighed 237 kg (Pers com with the Gus van dyk --> Wildlife Biologist and responsible for the wildlife conservation now in Tswalu Kalahari)

I did not say "obese", there are not obese wild cats. I say large, fat, bulky, that is more correct for this outsider lion. I did not knew about this "Homob" male from South Africa, sound interesting. Is this a wild or a private reserve? I ask it because in South Africa is very important to know, if not we will get a semi-wild lion included in a real wild sample. Did they recorded if it had stomach content?

About what Waveriders said, honestly I don't care because that guy was more biased than a Russian in the middle of the Cold War. So I prefer to use my data to get the size of that lion, based in skulls, but even then it will be just an estimation, not the real size, and with lions we need to be very carefull as some times there are robust but short animals and others that are longer with light builds, like in any other cat honestly. At the end, any estimation can't be used as a real data, specfically for body size.

I will mention the recorded weights for SA lions that are 100% confirmed by emails (at least the records im aware of). Peter Buss(SanParks, Kruger) heaviest lion weighed 225 kg. Based on a picture where he is standing behind a lion (that was on a scale) he said that the lion should be around 220 kg. From Tintswalo the read road male was weighed at 205 kg empty stomach. A 163 kg male lion from Selati Game Reserve. A 237 kg male from Pilannesberg NP.

GuateGojira · 02-08-2022, 04:11 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:33 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Generally those reserves called having semi-wild individuals (canned hunting and small area) have very few lions and you can easily seperate them between wild ones. The Homob male was weighed in Pilannesberg National Park and was reported that he ate before he have been weighed.

Though Waverider on that regard i think was helpful. The indications from the land rover and his estimate from the skeleton are torwards a large lion without a doubt however he estimated the height to be 100-105 cm. I saw some of your discussions with him so i can judge really as i just read some posts of him.

Is interesting to see where he got the information of the lion skeletons. If you check the litterature, there are several bones reported with they measurements, but only one is tied with a body measurement, a captive lion courtesy of Dr Per Christiansen, and that is all. So if he was guessing based in his appreciation, I will not trust at all on his measurements.

Thank you for the data on the "Homob" lion, can you please put the email here? In my next review on the lion data I will certainly include it.

Now, returning to the size of the 272 kg lion, we do have 5 adult wild males that we can use, measured by scientists in straight line with they skulls, and one big record male from Rowland Ward, which I think may be reliable (I included him in my tables after all, but on the skull, I am not quite sure). I put togheter all the information and here is the final image, check it:

*This image is copyright of its original author

What we can see is that the inclution or exclution of the Ward male do affect greatly the results. For example, if we use the equation of GSL-TL using RW the relation is somewhat strong (r=0.68) and produce a total length of 2971 mm, but if we use the sample without RW, the relation drop a lot and is no longer significant (r=0.47) but produce a total length of 3000 mm, remember that I am using the figure of 387 mm for the GSL.

Now, for the HB length, if we use RW the relation is again relatively high (r=0.65) and produce a figure of 1969 mm, but if we remouve the RW value, the relation drop incredible and became unreliable (r=0.19) and produce a HB of 1917 mm.

Finally, as the TL - HB relation is high, r=88 with RW and r=0.79 with no RW, I decided to check what could I get if I use these equations with the total length gathered via the first results. I got this:

Using the TL with RW (2971 mm), I got a HB of 1966 with RW and 1938 with no RW.
Using the TL with no RW (3000 mm), I got a HB of 1991 with RW and 1959 with no RW.

These are the results in base of the sample that we have, but interestingly is that in none of these estimations the HB passed the 2000 mm, probably because the sample is too small or maybe a lion with that skull is just scratching that figure. On the total length we reached the 3000 mm, but remember that the relation is low (r=47) so the result should be taken with caution.

A shoulder height of 100 - 105 cm seems reliable to me.

Well, this is what I can get using the few information available, but at least is a reliable for to calculate it, based in facts and no assumptions.

Pckts · 02-08-2022, 04:30 AM

(02-08-2022, 03:33 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 02:44 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 01:54 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: That remains for all cats in such a weight class (being overweight) as i said except for these really large ones but even then they need to find that amount of food. I agree with you partly but the lion was proven to be really robust and overaveragely large in terms of body size. So i think he definetely isnt falling in the obese category but more or less overweight. In the old Carnivora forum the user waveriders estimated the length of that lion at around 205 cm based on the skeleton. (If i find the post i will quote it as i wasnt able to find it).

I dont know if you saw it. The ecologist confirmed to me that the Homob male of Pilannesberg weighed 237 kg (Pers com with the Gus van dyk --> Wildlife Biologist and responsible for the wildlife conservation now in Tswalu Kalahari)

I did not say "obese", there are not obese wild cats. I say large, fat, bulky, that is more correct for this outsider lion. I did not knew about this "Homob" male from South Africa, sound interesting. Is this a wild or a private reserve? I ask it because in South Africa is very important to know, if not we will get a semi-wild lion included in a real wild sample. Did they recorded if it had stomach content?

About what Waveriders said, honestly I don't care because that guy was more biased than a Russian in the middle of the Cold War. So I prefer to use my data to get the size of that lion, based in skulls, but even then it will be just an estimation, not the real size, and with lions we need to be very carefull as some times there are robust but short animals and others that are longer with light builds, like in any other cat honestly. At the end, any estimation can't be used as a real data, specfically for body size.

Generally those reserves called having semi-wild individuals (canned hunting and small area) have very few lions and you can easily seperate them between wild ones. The Homob male was weighed in Pilannesberg National Park and was reported that he ate before he have been weighed.

Though Waverider on that regard i think was helpful. The indications from the land rover and his estimate from the skeleton are torwards a large lion without a doubt however he estimated the height to be 100-105 cm. I saw some of your discussions with him so i can judge really as i just read some posts of him.

Interesting enough, Pilannesberg looks to be the Ngorongoro Crater of S. Africa. If it's characteristics are comparable to it's E. African Counterpart, it should be a place we look into more in regards to Lion size. Especially if they're weighing cats there since the Crater cats is impossible to get any info on. You should see if body measurements were taken, what protocol used and if they have any other cats measurements/weights available.

Just doing a quick search on them though, they seem to possess the sleeker S. African Lion frame and don't have the notorious shoulder mane seen in the Ngorongoro Crater but still look to be big cats.

*This image is copyright of its original author

GuateGojira · 02-08-2022, 04:36 AM

(02-08-2022, 04:30 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Hi,

give me your mail(no matter which one) in PM so i can forward it to you. Its the most reliable share method. Please contact the ecologist when i "allow" it because im in a conversation with him. He will check the weight this weekend. I tried everything to not publish the mail and after you got it i hope you will keep it secret

Don't worry. We will disclosure the informaton together, if you want and in the correct moment.

Right now, been honest, I don't have plans to update the table of lions, so we have plenty of time to get more information.

Hello · 02-13-2022, 04:35 PM

Lions - examples of extreme size variation of the skulls in sub-Saharan adult lions. Size variation is something relatively easy to assess and demonstrate. But virtually any trait/character used in morphology is a subject of one or another type of variation, some quite intricate and hard to assess and study. The life of paleozoologists is a complicated one.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Dark Jaguar · 02-15-2022, 03:12 AM

Adult Tapir Skull Predated by the Big and Old male Fantasma (Ghost in Portuguese)

Fazenda Caiman - Miranda - Pantanal - Brazil

onçafari

''This skull belonged to a very large tapir that was hunted by Fantasma, one of the largest male jaguars here in the Caiman Ecological Refuge''

https://www.facebook.com/Oncafari/photos...020644076/

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fantasma with a Tapir Kill.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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