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Ngandong Tiger (Panthera Tigris soloensis)

United States smedz Offline
Regular Member
***
#1

After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#2

1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf
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United States smedz Offline
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#3

(02-11-2019, 04:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf

Thanks, that was rather informal. 

486 kg= 1,071 lbs 
If that was this tigers real size, then it was a beast. But of course, this may be an overestimate. But we know for sure this was the biggest tiger to ever live. Something that would definitely make early humans crap themselves. Although, what kind of hyenas lived in that region?
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#4

(02-11-2019, 04:39 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf

Thanks, that was rather informal. 

486 kg= 1,071 lbs 
If that was this tigers real size, then it was a beast. But of course, this may be an overestimate. But we know for sure this was the biggest tiger to ever live. Something that would definitely make early humans crap themselves. Although, what kind of hyenas lived in that region?


Hard to say the exact species of the local hyenas, and I did remember when I read it, the species remained anonymous.

Perhaps @tigerluver could interpret the whole thing better than I did, since he has continuously studied on Ngandong tiger with the actual fossil under his possession.
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United States smedz Offline
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#5

(02-11-2019, 05:13 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:39 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf

Thanks, that was rather informal. 

486 kg= 1,071 lbs 
If that was this tigers real size, then it was a beast. But of course, this may be an overestimate. But we know for sure this was the biggest tiger to ever live. Something that would definitely make early humans crap themselves. Although, what kind of hyenas lived in that region?


Hard to say the exact species of the local hyenas, and I did remember when I read it, the species remained anonymous.

Perhaps @tigerluver could interpret the whole thing better than I did, since he has continuously studied on Ngandong tiger with the actual fossil under his possession.

Could you maybe let tigerluver and the other prehistoric feline experts about this thread? I'd love to hear their input. Just thought the creation of this thread would make researching this tiger easier for any curious person.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#6

(02-11-2019, 05:18 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 05:13 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:39 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf

Thanks, that was rather informal. 

486 kg= 1,071 lbs 
If that was this tigers real size, then it was a beast. But of course, this may be an overestimate. But we know for sure this was the biggest tiger to ever live. Something that would definitely make early humans crap themselves. Although, what kind of hyenas lived in that region?


Hard to say the exact species of the local hyenas, and I did remember when I read it, the species remained anonymous.

Perhaps @tigerluver could interpret the whole thing better than I did, since he has continuously studied on Ngandong tiger with the actual fossil under his possession.

Could you maybe let tigerluver and the other prehistoric feline experts about this thread? I'd love to hear their input. Just thought the creation of this thread would make researching this tiger easier for any curious person.


I have already summoned him in my previous post, and he will be here later to answer your curiosity.
Reply

United States smedz Offline
Regular Member
***
#7

(02-11-2019, 05:20 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 05:18 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 05:13 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:39 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 04:09 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. The largest specimen probably exceeded 1000 lbs.

2. All those even-toed ungulates available in the Pleistocene Southeast Asia; mostly bovids, sometimes also on tapirs, young elephants and rhinos.

3. Abundant preys available, also no peer competitor.

4. This tiger was the apex predator on the region, other local predators were much smaller like leopards, dholes, hyenas. Maybe other primitive humans like Homo erectus whose technologies weren't advanced enough to pose a significant threat.

5. Likely one of the largest prehistoric felids, and rivalled by the largest Pleistocene lions and Smilodon populator.


Here is the most recent paper that referred to the Ngandong tiger, if you are interested to read it.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1b74/4a3f6bab9689b2de3267c3d9cf0787e23fb9.pdf

Thanks, that was rather informal. 

486 kg= 1,071 lbs 
If that was this tigers real size, then it was a beast. But of course, this may be an overestimate. But we know for sure this was the biggest tiger to ever live. Something that would definitely make early humans crap themselves. Although, what kind of hyenas lived in that region?


Hard to say the exact species of the local hyenas, and I did remember when I read it, the species remained anonymous.

Perhaps @tigerluver could interpret the whole thing better than I did, since he has continuously studied on Ngandong tiger with the actual fossil under his possession.

Could you maybe let tigerluver and the other prehistoric feline experts about this thread? I'd love to hear their input. Just thought the creation of this thread would make researching this tiger easier for any curious person.


I have already summoned him in my previous post, and he will be here later to answer your curiosity.
Thank you.
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United States smedz Offline
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#8

I've read about the chalicothere known as Nestoritherium, which apparently lived at the same time and place as the Ngandong Tiger, that got me thinking. Was this tigers size an adaptation for preying on this animal? What was the bite force of this tiger?
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United States tigerluver Offline
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#9

(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?


Sorry for the delays.

@GrizzlyClaws is very knowledgeable in extinct cats and answered your questions well.

1. The largest femur was 480 mm. For comparison, the largest femur from any other pantherine is 470 mm, from a P. spelaea/fossilis. The longest known P. atrox femur was 460 mm. At the least, it was around the size of the giant lions. A younger fossil that can be found in the freak felids thread likely outsized the femur by a ways.

2. Probably young Stegodon, Hexoprotodon, Sus sp., and Bos sp. 

3 and 4. Niche partitioning was likely the reason. There was another felid in Hemimachairdous in the area that was about the size of a lion. The only way to not compete with such is to outgrow it and hunt larger prey.

5. It is very difficult to assign what specimen was the biggest ever as everyone is close at the top. New specimens keep shattering records as time goes on.
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United States smedz Offline
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#10

(02-26-2019, 03:42 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?


Sorry for the delays.

@GrizzlyClaws is very knowledgeable in extinct cats and answered your questions well.

1. The largest femur was 480 mm. For comparison, the largest femur from any other pantherine is 470 mm, from a P. spelaea/fossilis. The longest known P. atrox femur was 460 mm. At the least, it was around the size of the giant lions. A younger fossil that can be found in the freak felids thread likely outsized the femur by a ways.

2. Probably young Stegodon, Hexoprotodon, Sus sp., and Bos sp. 

3 and 4. Niche partitioning was likely the reason. There was another felid in Hemimachairdous in the area that was about the size of a lion. The only way to not compete with such is to outgrow it and hunt larger prey.

5. It is very difficult to assign what specimen was the biggest ever as everyone is close at the top. New specimens keep shattering records as time goes on.

Thank you very much! Sounds like Indonesia back then was quite the crazy place.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#11
( This post was last modified: 02-26-2019, 08:25 AM by GuateGojira )

(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author



3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.
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United States smedz Offline
Regular Member
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#12

(02-26-2019, 08:22 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author



3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.
WOW!! Thank you! Looks like the Ngandong Tiger episode will be a part of season one of my series.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#13

(02-26-2019, 08:22 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author



3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.


Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

BTW, I just got some private conversation with @tigerluver today, he got new updated information about the new fossil.

BTW, Ngandong tiger didn't seem to be the only standing giant, the gigantism was likely universal in the Pleistocene tiger world.
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United States smedz Offline
Regular Member
***
#14

(02-27-2019, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-26-2019, 08:22 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author



3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.


Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

BTW, I just got some private conversation with @tigerluver today, he got new updated information about the new fossil.

BTW, Ngandong tiger didn't seem to be the only standing giant, the gigantism was likely universal in the Pleistocene tiger world.
That's great! I'll be looking forward to the new information.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#15

(02-27-2019, 07:53 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:
(02-26-2019, 08:22 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 01:40 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author



3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.


Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

BTW, I just got some private conversation with @tigerluver today, he got new updated information about the new fossil.

BTW, Ngandong tiger didn't seem to be the only standing giant, the gigantism was likely universal in the Pleistocene tiger world.
That's great! I'll be looking forward to the new information.


The size of the prehistoric lion/tiger was likely symmetric compared to today's.

Back then, even the African lions used to be gargantuan.
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