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Size comparisons
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  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://news.mongabay.com/2017/12/camera-traps-reveal-surprises-in-peru/  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.bocawina.com/panthera-wildlife-monitoring-in-belize-jaguar-cats   *This image is copyright of its original author White headed vulture harrassing tawny eagle.  *This image is copyright of its original author Wait your turn tawny eagle.  *This image is copyright of its original author Size comparison between a white headed vulture, white backed vulture, and bateleur's eagle  *This image is copyright of its original author White headed vultures and tawny eagle  *This image is copyright of its original author Shes seen a ton of cats, mostly captive but still she has quite the impressive collection if you check her page out.   (03-27-2019, 09:00 PM)Pckts Wrote: I spoke with Marlon Dutoit yesterday on Pantanal Jaguar Size compared to the Largest Leopards he's seen, he said Jaguars are "much, much bigger" I guess Marlon Dutoit has yet to see those who live in the equatorial forests:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
1.Equatorial forests or not, pantanal Jags are going to be 1.5 to 2 times the size.
2. Two different camera trap photos from two different continents is hardly a realistic comparison. Let's say they just so happen to be the biggest population of Leopard on earth, let's even say they have an average of 80kg with freak individuals reaching 100kg, they'd still be outweighed by 40kg-80kg on an individual basis. But more realistically is that the leopard population weighs similar to its Southern and Eastern cousins which average 60kgs. (03-29-2019, 04:19 PM)Pckts Wrote: 1.Equatorial forests or not, pantanal Jags are going to be 1.5 to 2 times the size. 2 times the size of Central African (male) leopard? I doubt it becouse even though there are no scientific weight measurements, I'm confident that these particular leopards easily weigh 80-100kg. Their skull measurements rival male Pantanal jaguars and skull measurements are a good indication of how big an animal is. Not 100% accurate, but still. Skulls of some Central African leopards and Persian leopards have measured the size of a Caspian tigress. For your information, a Caspian tigress has a weight between 85–135 kg. And another problem is that you're using a freak of a jaguar, 160kg is exceptional for any jaguar. Males from the Pantanal region usually weigh between 90-130kg. Here's a weight chart of Persian leopards who were weighed:  *This image is copyright of its original author As you can see, the males easily weigh 75-80kg and multiple males weigh even more. I'm not saying any leopard is bigger than a Pantanal male jaguar, especially the larger ones but the size difference really depends on which leopard you're using to compare it with. I doubt that the largest Pantanal jaguar will look 'much much bigger' than the 115kg male leopard from the chart above.
The fact is, 80kg-100kg leopards are exceptional. And while skulls are big in Congo leopards they arent larger than pantanal skulls nor have I seen anyone look into a correlation of skull size to body size in Jags and Leopards.
This is a massive skulled decent sized Bolivian jaguar. Also, we still have 1 individuals weight of 40kgs from the congo. In regards to persians, the 115 kg claim is hardly convincing considering that cat was missing a paw and looked fairly small on the table. What you do see is many in the 45-70kg range which is your standard leopard weight.
"The fact is, 80kg-100kg leopards are freaks."
Maybe for most of leopard subspecies but not for the larger ones, such as Sri lankan, Persian and Central African leopards and the exception of some large Sabi Sands male leopards. You shouldn't fixate just on African or Indian leopards and think their appearance and weight are the norm. There are 9 subspecies and each one is different from another. Just becouse African savannah leopards average 60-65kg doesn't mean other subspecies can't reach higher. I guess those 9 Persian leopards of the weight chart I shared are all freaks, since they weigh between 75-115kg. Lucky researchers I must say. "We dont even have a reliable weight above 80kgs for any African leopards" Well there are other subspecies who do have a reliable weight above 80kg so that argument is invalid. And it's also unfortunate that those from the equatorial forests are one of the least documented leopards. Based on what we have (skull measurements, camera traps, ...), these leopards are most likely the biggest subspecies. "And while skulls are big in Congo leopards they arent larger than pantanal skulls" The biggest male leopard skull from scientific source is 290+mm long, 186mm wide from D.R. Congo (Van Neer 2013). Which is higher than +90kg male jaguars:  *This image is copyright of its original author I'm not saying it's larger than the largest of all jaguars, but they definitely overlap in size. The single most impressive leopard specimen is the skull KBIN 8640 held in the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences. It is that of an old male leopard killed in the North Eastern DR Congo in the 1940s. The skull has a condylobasal length of 264mm and a zygomatic width of 186mm. Its greatest length isn't stated as the occipital crest was probably damaged but would've easily been in the 290-300mm range. In any case the condylobasal length can be considered at least as good a measure of overall skull size and this skull well exceeds others I am aware of which are all below 255mm in this measurement. To put things in perspective this leopard skull would easily place among very big male Pantanal or Llanos jaguar skulls with respect to skull length at least. This leopard would've comfortably been 90kg+ and even 100kgs may be conservative. For comparison, the heaviest male jaguar weighed for which skull measurements are available (there are several) was a male from the Venezuelan Llanos documented by Hoogenstein and Mondolfi which weighed 121kg (empty stomach) with a condylobasal skull length of 272mm and a zygomatic width of 185mm. Admittedly, this huge jaguar had a relatively narrow skull for its species but nonetheless very impressive that a leopard can have a skull comparable in dimensions to one of the largest jaguars ever recorded. "nor have I seen anyone look into a correlation of skull size to body size in Jags and Leopards." Well I do  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author I can show you a dozen more examples but I think these are enough to make my point. "Also, we still have 1 individuals weight of 40kgs from the congo." That's only becouse they're barely being researched. There's a lot of skull documentation though, which is a pretty good indicator of how big an animal is. And those skull measurements clearly rival those of jaguars. "In regards to persians, the 115 kg claim is hardly convincing considering that cat was missing a paw and looked fairly small on the table." What about the other males? There are 3 more in the 90-95kg weight range and those weights aren't exceptional for Persian males. Here are some random big Persian males who I consider bigger than 75kg:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author "What you do see is many in the 45-70kg range which is your standard leopard weight" I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you about the sexual dimorphism with leopards. When they discovered leopards in Central Africa, they thought the males were a different subspecies just becouse of the massive size difference. Here's an example of 2 mating leopards in Gabon:  *This image is copyright of its original author Another great example:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author This shouldn't really be a discussion, there's a lot of scientific evidence that certain leopard subspecies overlap in size with Pantanal jaguars. I'd love to see the largest leopard ever against the largest jaguar.
Sri Lanken Leopards are smaller than their African cousins, I've heard this from numerous people who've seen both. Persian leopards are large, absolutely but that doesnt stop most of them from being under 80kg, especially verified weights. Again, the 115kg claim is hardly valid for the numerous reasons stated. Of the 21 persians measured and the additional LM1, now 22 individuals the average is less than 65kg with the heaviest weighing 91kg, there's also a 99kg ove seen as well but I believe he was weighed in his cage which leaves room for error, so yes, 80-100kg is a freak leopard regardless of sub species. And most importantly, a Persian leopard is a completely different sub species while we're talking about African Leopards that live in the rain forest.
Skull size, I'd need to look into all skull to weight ratio to even compare but at a quick glance Pantanal and Venezual skulls will be wider at the same length and they are wider and longer overall. Between the pantanal and Venezuela you have an average of 290mm length and 194mm width so using one that's an outlier doesnt change the fact that the largest leopard skull ever measured still doesnt exceed average sized pantanal and Venezuela skull size. Also, why are you using Amazon jaguars to compare to leopard skulls when were talking about pantanal jags? Amazon jags have much smaller dimensions. Read post #24 here https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...ars?page=2 Look at the monster class skulls, look at how many there are over 12", it's not an uncommon occurence for them compared to it being almost unheard of leopards. Sexual dimorphism is present amongst all cats, especially Panthera and no one panthera species is an outlier in this category, all show similar bw % differences. You say you'd love to see the largest leopard vs largest jaguar, I Suggest you look up the 115kg, pawless Persian leopard and compare him to some of the verified 110kg+ Jaguars and you will probably want to compare a different leopard. I will say this, I absolutely think there are 100kg leopards throughout Africa and Asia but I also think those are extremely rare, it's as rare as a 150kg Pantanal Jaguar, which still maintains the size discrepancy I was speaking on. Jaguars will be 1.5 to 2 times the size *weight* of a Leopard. But of course a large leopard will overlap with Jaguars, but when the tables are even *outlier to outlier* you see the same descrepencies regardless.
"Sri Lanken Leopards are smaller than their African cousins, I've heard this from numerous people who've seen both"
People think that just becouse they're weighted liked only once back in the 30's, with the heaviest weighing 77kg. That doesn't stop them from being one of the larger subspecies though. Meet Ivan, a Sri Lankan male leopard who BBC claims to weigh 100kg (link):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Although never weighed, he for sure weighs more than the so called largest Sri Lankan leopard of 77kg. "Persian leopards are large, absolutely but that doesnt stop most of them from being under 80kg, especially verified weights. Again, the 115kg claim is hardly valid for the numerous reasons stated. Of the 21 persians measured and the additional LM1, now 22 individuals the average is less than 65kg with the heaviest weighing 91kg, there's also a 99kg ove seen as well but I believe he was weighed in his cage which leaves room for error, so yes, 80-100kg is a freak leopard regardless of sub species. And most importantly, a Persian leopard is a completely different sub species while we're talking about African Leopards that live in the rain forest." Again, how can you call leopards weighing above 80kg freaks? There are 9 males weighing more than 75kg. I say they reach these weights quite frequently. "Between the pantanal and Venezuela you have an average of 290mm length and 194mm width so using one that's an outlier doesnt change the fact that the largest leopard skull ever measured still doesnt exceed average sized pantanal and Venezuela skull size. Also, why are you using Amazon jaguars to compare to leopard skulls when were talking about pantanal jags?" That was just to give everyone an idea of how large that particular would be. Also, that leopard isn't a one of a kind leopard. There are several males from different subspecies reaching those measurements. It's not just one large, it's several large males. But yes, this only applies to the larger males and not your average leopard. Doesn't mean large leopards overlap with South American jaguars. Here are some skull measurements of Persian leopards. Notice how several males have skull measurements 270mm length and 170mm width:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's a list of the biggest skulls from scientific sources. Notice how Persian and Central African leopards dominate the list. Of the 20 huge skulls listed, 11 are from Central Africa (DR Congo, Gabon, and Sudan). Then, 7 are from Iran, the northern part of the country specifically. No Sri lankan males since there only about 10 measurements from scientific sources. Most of them are from from the Bilhulaya area (central highlands). Problem is that the larger leopards there are from Yala NP (Ivan is from there for example).  *This image is copyright of its original author So the largest for leopards so far is 297mm x 186mm, for jaguars this is a male from the Venezuelan Llanos with 312.5mm x 225mm as far as I'm aware. Another jaguar had 305mm x 222mm. Photograph of the biggest jaguar skull documented. (from Hoogesteijn and Mondolfi's 1993 book). Make sure you read the text next to the photo aswell!  *This image is copyright of its original author "Sexual dimorphism is present amongst all cats" It's more extreme with leopards than with jaguars. Pantanal males average 100kg and females 78kg if I remember correctly. That's like 20% larger? Meanwhile we have some leopard subspecies (like the Central African ones) where the males literally dwarf the females. Like I said before, when researchers discovered the leopards out there, they thought the males were another subspecie! "You say you'd love to see the largest leopard vs largest jaguar, I Suggest you look up the 115kg, pawless Persian leopard and compare him to some of the verified 110kg+ Jaguars and you will probably want to compare a different leopard." I've seen the injured, pawless leopard. I'm not gonna use that specimen. I don't even have to use the largest leopard, I just have to use some fine mature males, regardless which subspecies. A mature male from Aberdares, Kenya  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author The famous Vind Diesel leopard (okay he's exceptional for a South African leopard, weighing over 90kg)  *This image is copyright of its original author Or this pitbull  *This image is copyright of its original author See, I don't even have to use a mature male from Central Africa. Who knows what the largest leopard would look like. Definitely impressive, even next to the largest jaguar. "I will say this, I absolutely think there are 100kg leopards throughout Africa and Asia but I also think those are extremely rare, it's as rare as a 150kg Pantanal Jaguar" Yeah I disagree, it's easier to find a 100kg leopard than a 150kg jaguar becouse some subspecies are just that large. They just need more research for people to open their eyes. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do here on this forum. 
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 In sri lanka, tiger, lion and cheetah are extinct (about 30 kya) and island insular effect lead to insular giagantism. In Persia too, recently tiger, lion and cheetah were extinct. In central congo basin or rain forest, no lions (except in fringes), spotted hyena or bear and cheetahs are present (except in fringes). These gaps in niches helped them to occupy in those levels to become apex predator from meso predator over these thousands of yrs (not for persian). similar to leopard-lion ancestor evolved to lions (in east africa) and leopards resply.  (04-01-2019, 12:15 PM)Luipaard Wrote: "Sri Lanken Leopards are smaller than their African cousins, I've heard this from numerous people who've seen both" Spectacular, those leopards look robust. |
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