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Size comparisons
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I put here one hunting case about pumas. Weight is unconfirmed, but here is quote about text and skull measurements. Impossible to say too much from photo, but obviously looking quite same as many leopards in similar photos. That article is also giving interesting information about it, how internet is full of rumors and misinformation.
Quote: "The viral nature of the photos is understandable, because the cat looks, well, enormous. For reference, Klein stands 6 feet tall and weighs 260 pounds. Klein says the lion weighed more than 200 pounds and has an official Boone & Crockett score of 15 4/16 inches (the world record cat scored 16 4/16 inches)." https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2013/04/true-story-behind-viral-monster-mountain-lion-photos  (04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more. Quote:While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting These three big cats overlap in size. Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1) Length: 134.5cm Head: 63.5cm Neck: 55.9cm Chest: 92.1cm Adult female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number) Length: 133.4cm (n4) Head: 60.5cm Neck: 54.5cm Chest: 91.4cm Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4) Length: 130.5cm Head: 59.1cm Neck: 58.4cm Chest: 86.6cm Adult male cougars from Canada (n7) Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 129cm straight) Head: 52cm Neck: 43cm Chest: 81cm Bear in mind that we're comparing 2 larger jaguar subspecies and a large cougar subspecies with a mediocre leopard subspecies. A Persian or Central African male leopard would come out on top. Probably rivaling an average Pantanal male jaguar. Also, here's a picture of a male leopard from Taï national park in Ivory Coast, estimated at 3-5 years old.  *This image is copyright of its original author He was captured and weighed 56kg. He had a 54cm neck girth, and measured 138cm in body length (probably over the curves). Although nothing extraordinary in overall size, his neck girth is impressive for his size and suggests his head girth would've easily been around 56cm or more. For comparison, the average measurements of 5 mature adult male jaguars captured by Rabinowitz in Belize were: Weight:55.8kg Body length: 133.6cm Head girth: 56.4cm So this leopards proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.girth. So his proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size. (04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more. I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge. But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards. Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world. It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :) (04-23-2019, 03:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:(04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more. Quote:I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge. I never said otherwise. But you ignoring or not bothering that there is overlapping between them is up to you. Quote:But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards. Take another look at the measurements I just shared. The leopard has clearly a far bigger skull and massive neck compared to the cougar. Overall the cougar is differently proportioned than the 2 pantherine cats. The difference in neck and chest girth is also indicated by a few other samples and this is also the impression you get from photographs, cougars of either sex generally do not appear as compact in build as jaguars and male leopards which often appear more deep chested and with a more massive head/neck area. Instead, the cougar appears to be a leggier animal with more of its weight probably coming from the limbs which often do look quite muscular. Quote:Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world. Again, I never said otherwise. Also my agenda? All I do is show people with PROOF that there is overlapping. The jaguar is the bigger overall which is indeed why it's the third largest cat. Quote:It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :) It's not even a debate. It's a FACT. Also, I don't have to convince anyone. I'm just glad that there's a forum where I can share this knowledge. Too bad you're being hostile towards me. (04-23-2019, 03:42 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-23-2019, 03:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:(04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more. One has bigger skull, another longer legs..... skull measurements when comparing different species are one detail, not telling what is overall situation. So when you look at weights of animals, you get best overall indicator. You can have side by side a jaguar and leopard about same shoulder height, still as for instance wolverine explained here earlier, jaguars in reality look like two leopards in size because so much more robust. But to make it more clear, I wonder which one is really larger big cat, leopard or puma, when we compare average weights and weights of the biggest individuals? It has been interesting to notice, that there seem to be more mentionings about pumas weighing 100+ kg. So is leopard really 4th largest big cat if we take puma in comparison? I find it interesting if pumas really are able to produce more big individuals than leopards.
This is for Luipaard concerning thread rainforest leopards:
I was just checking, that I remembered right some charts. Sometimes it is easier to take one detail at the time. I find those skull measurements interesting just in that way, that what differences there are when compared to other leopards. Comparing to jaguars based on skull size, like it would mean something in overall sizes is much more complicated matter and I haven´t found your reasoning convincing in it. When looking at heads of jaguars and leopards, there just is that difference, I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have. But of course jaguars are famous of their bite and they for sure look like to have muscle structure made for it. A bit same as if you look at German shepherd and rottweiler. I am not sure about skull sizes, but it takes one look to know, which one has more robust muscles in head and jaws. So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has... then I have to say, that I haven´t yet found you convincing. But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing. (04-25-2019, 02:37 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is for Luipaard concerning thread rainforest leopards: Quote:I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have. Correct, but as I've showed already, Central African males have a more robust head than a South African leopard. These leopards have skulls closer to jaguars than any other leopard subspecies (bar Persians). Quote:So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has... No I just use this comparison to show that Central African leopards are larger than their South African counterpart. Isn't it interesting that their average skull size is about the same of Amazon jaguars (80kg) and Pantanal jaguaresses (78kg)? I find that interesting and proves to me that Central African males PROBABLY average around the same size. If some particular South African males average 70kg, why can't a more robust and larger subspecies like the Central African leopard average higher? There are a lot of indicators that this is the case. Quote:But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing. Well do that comparison and you'll see that Central African leopards have a way higher average skull size than South African leopards. South African leopards usually average around 60-70kg depending which region. What are the odds that a Central African leopard will average the same? As you may know, skull measurements are a good indicator of how large an animal is. Researchers use this method to estimate an animal size aswell. I'm just really into these particular leopards. Not a lot of people know all this information. These leopards, alongside Persian leopards are in a different league. (04-25-2019, 03:35 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(04-25-2019, 02:37 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is for Luipaard concerning thread rainforest leopards: You can of course believe what you want, but I don´t believe that any leopards are as robust as jaguars with about same skeletal size because, as said, jaguars are overall more robust. Skull size alone doesn´t convince me and as said, you also ignore all the time it, that when you look head of jaguar and leopard, jaguar head is massive and looks like to have a lot more volume than leopard. You are comparing here an overall slender animal to an overall robust animal and it just doesn´t make sense. I am very interested to hear when this "Jo" replies to you more and if she has some real information, not just "I think", "it might", "it looks like"... I have seen now some Gabon leopards and overall nothing so special yet. Are they a few kilos more in average than some other leopards, difficult to say from some photos or videos. Might be, but comparable to jaguars, that I don´t see there.
One video about jaguars and leopards and such, where there are these animals in same enclosure. When stopping video at 0:47 it is a good place to see the difference what comes to bodies of these animals.
In this kind of videos it is actually possible to compare two individuals when they are side by side.
But that's not the right thing to do either, I'm comparing a Central African male with a jaguar and you're showing me 2 random, captive animals for comparison.
That's like me showing a random video of a Mexican jaguar in the same enclosure with a Central African male, and saying that jaguars are smaller than these leopards. Comparing them is difficult as they overlap in size. Yes, I already agreed on the fact that jaguars are bigger and more robust overall. That still doesn't mean that Central African leopards will look small and slender like in that video you shared. I'm convinced that the difference would be marginal. As for Jo, I assume she knows what she's talking about being a Panthera researcher. Her opinion shouldn't be ignored. (04-26-2019, 12:55 AM)Luipaard Wrote: But that's not the right thing to do either, I'm comparing a Central African male with a jaguar and you're showing me 2 random, captive animals for comparison. Central African males are in many cases slender as some examples from Gabon show. Some have bigger head but still body doesn´t look like to be so different. I have noticed in some videos, that when taking a still photo in right spot, leopard can be made to look like more robust than it is. That is the reason why I am waiting if anyone is able to give some real information, not just photos proving nothing else, than what is well known, from random photos can´t be made big conclusions. And what comes to Jo, she isn´t ignored, but she didn´t give yet any real information in that one message. I remember that she was going to discuss more and see if she can get some good information. Wasn´t it so. Everything else were more or less assumptions, nothing so concrete. I have been waiting what more she has to say, I understood, that she was going to write again later or do I remember wrong? Btw, did you notice one thing on that rare video where you can actually see leopard and jaguar body side by side. That leopard looked like to be a bit higher when looking shoulder height etc. Still clearly more slender. And when you look at Central African leopards, they look quite same when looking at body. That is the reason why I am not convinced, that even Central African leopards would be comparable with jaguars. I have checked some photos taken from videos where leopards have looked like to be really massive, from video it has been fun to notice, that still shot has been taken in perfect spot to exaggerate leopard size :) 
Central African Leopard
 *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.africahunting.com/media/leopard-hunted-in-central-african-republic.14744/ *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14757&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501 *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14756&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501 *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author Not that I condone any of this but as you can see, Central African Leopards aren't producing any larger Leopard in comparison to E. African For instance  *This image is copyright of its original author Actual Size of Red River Hog *This image is copyright of its original author and Dulkier *This image is copyright of its original author The 2 Favorite Prey Items of C. African Leopards and as you can see, no larger than a Warthog  *This image is copyright of its original author For Comparison, this is a Bali Tiger hunted by M. Zanveld in 1920s  *This image is copyright of its original author Bali Tigers are said to be 100kg and assuming this fellow here is 100kg it's safe to say no Leopard shown would be close to this guys size. (04-26-2019, 02:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: Central African Leopard Yeah, photos are interesting. They can tell more than thousand words is said sometimes. But when purpose is to exaggerate, it is easy to make a better lie than could be made with thousand words I think. For instance there is a photo where a woman holds up a killed leopard and it looks like to be huge. But when thinking, that, should I say an average woman should pick up a huge dead and limp 90 kg leopard and keep it there with smile on her face... that is easier said than done. But even 50-60 kg leopard can be made to look like quite big/huge when taking photo from right angle. But it looks like, that there is less information about weights of leopards than I though (I haven´t been looking around a lot) because this latest discussion has provided very little such information really. (04-26-2019, 02:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: Central African Leopard None of those are from Gabon/Congo. Here's one from Congo, estimated to have weighed 220lbs  *This image is copyright of its original author As for the Bali tiger and leopard comparison, here's a comparison between a Congo leopard and a Sumatran tiger. According to wiki: "The Sumatran tiger is one of the smallest tigers, and about the size of big leopards and jaguars. Males weigh 100 to 140 kg (220 to 310 lb)".  *This image is copyright of its original author As for the red river hog and warthog, here's a better comparison:  *This image is copyright of its original author
I've seen sumatrans in person and what their weights were, that is a tiny sumatran you're comparing it to. Sumatrans I've seen outsize any leopard by quite a margin.
Also, what would it matter? You know Java Tigers are in the 100kg category and that one obviously outsized any leopard we've posted, cherry picking a small tiger to compare to a leopard isn't looking for answers but more so trying to skew a fact to back a claim. Also, how many times are you going to post the same leopard? You've already seen numerous leoprd from the S/E Africa who easily match it. In regards to the hog, as you can see they are warthog sized and obviously that is in a Leopards prime prey category. In fact, leopards are specialized killers of warthogs and deliver a bite to the chest to kill them and avoid their large tusks. Its probably not far fetched to say a warthog is actually more dangerous prey due to the superior tusks they possess. |
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