There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Of course it was Kzt 085. At this point is anyone surprised at Kzt 085 anymore?! Isn’t he the one that killed Kzt023 (who I still believe is one of the largest tigers I have seen on a camera trap)?
11-19-2019, 01:35 AM( This post was last modified: 11-19-2019, 02:12 AM by Shadow )
(11-19-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 11:41 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 10:41 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 10:47 AM)Shadow Wrote: One more photo concerning that 600 kg (estimated by Sharma) calf carcass. This photo shows in more clear way eaten part of it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big animal, definitely not what I'd consider to be a calf but certainly not full grown either.
Also like Rishi said, very rare for Tigers to start with the front, usually they prefer the rump but with a Rhino it may not matter.
Photos of this calf are good examples how perspective can make same carcass to look like small and big depending about is, that is object or animal used to comparison in front or behind.
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Small carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Those photos are the reason why I trust mostly to it, what Sharma say, 600 kg heavy and that means a calf about 1 years old or a bit older. Nice prey and a lot of eat for a tiger.
There is a big difference between a Tiger and Human being, of course a carcass will look smaller in front of a Tiger compared to a human and it never looked small to me even with the Tiger in front of the Carcass and the People behind the carcass.
That's a big animal, a 600kg animal with that much meat removed (estimated) is huge, it's as large as most Buffalo bulls and if you've ever seen a Cape buffalo, you know they are big animals.
In regards to it's age, I'm not sure if it's a year or a couple of years, since I assume the only thing you're going off of was the post about a 600kg Rhino in captivity celebrating it's first bday, but I've already posted a few animals that are being weighed and you can see just how large a 200kg Rhino is, something that is 3-4 times their size will most likely need more time to grow into it.
Here you can see a one year old Rhino estimated to be 857lbs or 388kg
"Baby White Rhino "Sawyer" Turns 1!
Rhinoceros baby celebrates his birthday with rhino sized treats
Natural Bridge, VA – August 24th – It's been one year since the Virginia Safari Park welcomed its first baby white rhinoceros, a monumental birth for a critically endangered species. The healthy baby boy was born after a 16-month pregnancy to “Samira” a 6 year-old female. Baby Sawyer weighed about 100 pounds at birth and has gained weight steadily. His zookeepers estimate he weighs roughly 875 pounds today, which is still relatively small compared to the weights of adult females like his mother, Samira, who weigh roughly 3,000 to 4,000 pounds and adult males that can weigh up to 5,000 pounds." http://www.virginiasafaripark.com/News/TabId/226/ArtMID/1002/ArticleID/26/Baby-White-Rhino-Sawyer-Turns-1.aspx
and here is another one year old in the 800lb area
"February 7 calls for celebration--at least at Cleveland's Metropolitan Zoo.
The Zoo is celebrating the first birthday of baby rhino Lulu.
Gaining 850 pounds in one year, the zoo says Lulu is thriving. "
In honor of Lulu's special day and throwback Thursday, the zoo posted photos from her first mud bath.
My guess would be that Rhino is older than 1 for sure, it's a large animal.
Especially if it's mother was no longer with it, it most certainly was older than that.
This is very simple actually, here were posted two cases concerning adult rhinos and one was a calf because too small to be something else if we trust Sharma and his weight estimation.
"Maternal calves: a calf drinks on average 20-30 litres of milk per day and grows by 1-2 kg daily. They start nibbling and feeding on roughage at the age of 3-5 months, but may continue to suck up to the age of 20 months. Young calves are also vulnerable to the predation of tigers in the wild" https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino-info/rhino-species/greater-one-horned-rhino/
"The calves were rescued in Kaziranga National Park (NP) when they were about one to five months old when they were swept away by flood waters. The calves were hand reared and nursed at the Centre for Wildlife Rehabilitation and Conservation (CWRC) with the aim of releasing them into their natural habitat. They were fed human milk formula until they reached two years of age, and then with concentrates and greens in paddocks in CWRC. At the age of about three years the calves were translocated to Manas NP, about 500 km away from Kaziranga and placed in a pre-release area measuring 600 acres." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287892702_Rehabilitation_of_greater_one-horned_rhinoceros_calves_in_Manas_National_Park_a_World_Heritage_Site_in_India
I think, that we can safely use the word calf in this case when we look how professional sources define that word when talking about rhinos.
Debates are ok, but what comes to definition of rhino calf, time to end it. Also it should be clear, that calves do get separated from their mothers and that makes them very vulnerable. Where a 600-800 kg buffalos or gaurs are formidable opponents, same sized rhino calf is... just a kid. When alone.... lost, scared and confused, there is nothing to debate in these things.
Only thing is, that does someone want to question weight estimation of Sharma and by that say, that this third case was adult rhino too. I see there a carcass with only some flesh missing from neck area. It looks like a good time to focus to cases with adult rhinos.
11-19-2019, 02:43 AM( This post was last modified: 11-19-2019, 02:51 AM by Pckts )
(11-19-2019, 01:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-19-2019, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 11:41 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 10:41 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-18-2019, 10:47 AM)Shadow Wrote: One more photo concerning that 600 kg (estimated by Sharma) calf carcass. This photo shows in more clear way eaten part of it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big animal, definitely not what I'd consider to be a calf but certainly not full grown either.
Also like Rishi said, very rare for Tigers to start with the front, usually they prefer the rump but with a Rhino it may not matter.
Photos of this calf are good examples how perspective can make same carcass to look like small and big depending about is, that is object or animal used to comparison in front or behind.
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Small carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Those photos are the reason why I trust mostly to it, what Sharma say, 600 kg heavy and that means a calf about 1 years old or a bit older. Nice prey and a lot of eat for a tiger.
There is a big difference between a Tiger and Human being, of course a carcass will look smaller in front of a Tiger compared to a human and it never looked small to me even with the Tiger in front of the Carcass and the People behind the carcass.
That's a big animal, a 600kg animal with that much meat removed (estimated) is huge, it's as large as most Buffalo bulls and if you've ever seen a Cape buffalo, you know they are big animals.
In regards to it's age, I'm not sure if it's a year or a couple of years, since I assume the only thing you're going off of was the post about a 600kg Rhino in captivity celebrating it's first bday, but I've already posted a few animals that are being weighed and you can see just how large a 200kg Rhino is, something that is 3-4 times their size will most likely need more time to grow into it.
Here you can see a one year old Rhino estimated to be 857lbs or 388kg
"Baby White Rhino "Sawyer" Turns 1!
Rhinoceros baby celebrates his birthday with rhino sized treats
Natural Bridge, VA – August 24th – It's been one year since the Virginia Safari Park welcomed its first baby white rhinoceros, a monumental birth for a critically endangered species. The healthy baby boy was born after a 16-month pregnancy to “Samira” a 6 year-old female. Baby Sawyer weighed about 100 pounds at birth and has gained weight steadily. His zookeepers estimate he weighs roughly 875 pounds today, which is still relatively small compared to the weights of adult females like his mother, Samira, who weigh roughly 3,000 to 4,000 pounds and adult males that can weigh up to 5,000 pounds." http://www.virginiasafaripark.com/News/TabId/226/ArtMID/1002/ArticleID/26/Baby-White-Rhino-Sawyer-Turns-1.aspx
and here is another one year old in the 800lb area
"February 7 calls for celebration--at least at Cleveland's Metropolitan Zoo.
The Zoo is celebrating the first birthday of baby rhino Lulu.
Gaining 850 pounds in one year, the zoo says Lulu is thriving. "
In honor of Lulu's special day and throwback Thursday, the zoo posted photos from her first mud bath.
My guess would be that Rhino is older than 1 for sure, it's a large animal.
Especially if it's mother was no longer with it, it most certainly was older than that.
This is very simple actually, here were posted two cases concerning adult rhinos and one was a calf because too small to be something else if we trust Sharma and his weight estimation.
"Maternal calves: a calf drinks on average 20-30 litres of milk per day and grows by 1-2 kg daily. They start nibbling and feeding on roughage at the age of 3-5 months, but may continue to suck up to the age of 20 months. Young calves are also vulnerable to the predation of tigers in the wild" https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino-info/rhino-species/greater-one-horned-rhino/
"The calves were rescued in Kaziranga National Park (NP) when they were about one to five months old when they were swept away by flood waters. The calves were hand reared and nursed at the Centre for Wildlife Rehabilitation and Conservation (CWRC) with the aim of releasing them into their natural habitat. They were fed human milk formula until they reached two years of age, and then with concentrates and greens in paddocks in CWRC. At the age of about three years the calves were translocated to Manas NP, about 500 km away from Kaziranga and placed in a pre-release area measuring 600 acres." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287892702_Rehabilitation_of_greater_one-horned_rhinoceros_calves_in_Manas_National_Park_a_World_Heritage_Site_in_India
I think, that we can safely use the word calf in this case when we look how professional sources define that word when talking about rhinos.
Debates are ok, but what comes to definition of rhino calf, time to end it. Also it should be clear, that calves do get separated from their mothers and that makes them very vulnerable. Where a 600-800 kg buffalos or gaurs are formidable opponents, same sized rhino calf is... just a kid. When alone.... lost, scared and confused, there is nothing to debate in these things.
Only thing is, that does someone want to question weight estimation of Sharma and by that say, that this third case was adult rhino too. I see there a carcass with only some flesh missing from neck area. It looks like a good time to focus to cases with adult rhinos.
Let's not jump to assumptions on why the Rhino was alone, we don't know if the mother was poached or flooding was involved or the if the Rhino was actually on it's own because of naturally leaving it's mother like they do around 2-3 Years old.
Considering that Rhino was large and alone, your definition of Calf doesn't necessarily apply, in professional sources Rhinos being 800lbs tend to be 1 year old, that is less than half the size of this Rhino killed, so I would think the term Sub Adult fits nicely.
Just like big cats, Sub Adults aren't fully grown nor are they cubs, but yet they still are with their mothers or they are on their own. The age cut off is subjective, but when one thinks of "cub or calf" they think of an animal dependent on it's mother to survive, this is most likely not the case with this Rhino.
Lastly is that I'm not comparing the Danger of a 700kg Rhino to a 700kg Buffalo but if you think that a Rhino of that size isn't formidable, you'd be mistaken. You can see examples of this with Elephant Calves and youngsters fighting off entire Lion Prides.
(11-18-2019, 10:47 AM)Shadow Wrote: One more photo concerning that 600 kg (estimated by Sharma) calf carcass. This photo shows in more clear way eaten part of it.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big animal, definitely not what I'd consider to be a calf but certainly not full grown either.
Also like Rishi said, very rare for Tigers to start with the front, usually they prefer the rump but with a Rhino it may not matter.
Photos of this calf are good examples how perspective can make same carcass to look like small and big depending about is, that is object or animal used to comparison in front or behind.
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Small carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Big carcass:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Those photos are the reason why I trust mostly to it, what Sharma say, 600 kg heavy and that means a calf about 1 years old or a bit older. Nice prey and a lot of eat for a tiger.
There is a big difference between a Tiger and Human being, of course a carcass will look smaller in front of a Tiger compared to a human and it never looked small to me even with the Tiger in front of the Carcass and the People behind the carcass.
That's a big animal, a 600kg animal with that much meat removed (estimated) is huge, it's as large as most Buffalo bulls and if you've ever seen a Cape buffalo, you know they are big animals.
In regards to it's age, I'm not sure if it's a year or a couple of years, since I assume the only thing you're going off of was the post about a 600kg Rhino in captivity celebrating it's first bday, but I've already posted a few animals that are being weighed and you can see just how large a 200kg Rhino is, something that is 3-4 times their size will most likely need more time to grow into it.
Here you can see a one year old Rhino estimated to be 857lbs or 388kg
"Baby White Rhino "Sawyer" Turns 1!
Rhinoceros baby celebrates his birthday with rhino sized treats
Natural Bridge, VA – August 24th – It's been one year since the Virginia Safari Park welcomed its first baby white rhinoceros, a monumental birth for a critically endangered species. The healthy baby boy was born after a 16-month pregnancy to “Samira” a 6 year-old female. Baby Sawyer weighed about 100 pounds at birth and has gained weight steadily. His zookeepers estimate he weighs roughly 875 pounds today, which is still relatively small compared to the weights of adult females like his mother, Samira, who weigh roughly 3,000 to 4,000 pounds and adult males that can weigh up to 5,000 pounds." http://www.virginiasafaripark.com/News/TabId/226/ArtMID/1002/ArticleID/26/Baby-White-Rhino-Sawyer-Turns-1.aspx
and here is another one year old in the 800lb area
"February 7 calls for celebration--at least at Cleveland's Metropolitan Zoo.
The Zoo is celebrating the first birthday of baby rhino Lulu.
Gaining 850 pounds in one year, the zoo says Lulu is thriving. "
In honor of Lulu's special day and throwback Thursday, the zoo posted photos from her first mud bath.
My guess would be that Rhino is older than 1 for sure, it's a large animal.
Especially if it's mother was no longer with it, it most certainly was older than that.
This is very simple actually, here were posted two cases concerning adult rhinos and one was a calf because too small to be something else if we trust Sharma and his weight estimation.
"Maternal calves: a calf drinks on average 20-30 litres of milk per day and grows by 1-2 kg daily. They start nibbling and feeding on roughage at the age of 3-5 months, but may continue to suck up to the age of 20 months. Young calves are also vulnerable to the predation of tigers in the wild" https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino-info/rhino-species/greater-one-horned-rhino/
"The calves were rescued in Kaziranga National Park (NP) when they were about one to five months old when they were swept away by flood waters. The calves were hand reared and nursed at the Centre for Wildlife Rehabilitation and Conservation (CWRC) with the aim of releasing them into their natural habitat. They were fed human milk formula until they reached two years of age, and then with concentrates and greens in paddocks in CWRC. At the age of about three years the calves were translocated to Manas NP, about 500 km away from Kaziranga and placed in a pre-release area measuring 600 acres." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287892702_Rehabilitation_of_greater_one-horned_rhinoceros_calves_in_Manas_National_Park_a_World_Heritage_Site_in_India
I think, that we can safely use the word calf in this case when we look how professional sources define that word when talking about rhinos.
Debates are ok, but what comes to definition of rhino calf, time to end it. Also it should be clear, that calves do get separated from their mothers and that makes them very vulnerable. Where a 600-800 kg buffalos or gaurs are formidable opponents, same sized rhino calf is... just a kid. When alone.... lost, scared and confused, there is nothing to debate in these things.
Only thing is, that does someone want to question weight estimation of Sharma and by that say, that this third case was adult rhino too. I see there a carcass with only some flesh missing from neck area. It looks like a good time to focus to cases with adult rhinos.
Let's not jump to assumptions on why the Rhino was alone, we don't know if the mother was poached or flooding was involved or the if the Rhino was actually on it's own because of naturally leaving it's mother like they do around 2-3 Years old.
Considering that Rhino was large and alone, your definition of Calf doesn't necessarily apply, in professional sources Rhinos being 800lbs tend to be 1 year old, that is less than half the size of this Rhino killed, so I would think the term Sub Adult fits nicely.
Just like big cats, Sub Adults aren't fully grown nor are they cubs, but yet they still are with their mothers or they are on their own. The age cut off is subjective, but when one thinks of "cub or calf" they think of an animal dependent on it's mother to survive, this is most likely not the case with this Rhino.
Lastly is that I'm not comparing the Danger of a 700kg Rhino to a 700kg Buffalo but if you think that a Rhino of that size isn't formidable, you'd be mistaken. You can see examples of this with Elephant Calves and youngsters fighting off entire Lion Prides.
There was no assumption in my reply, I quoted some reasons why calves get separated from their mothers to reply to your assumptions.
"My guess would be that Rhino is older than 1 for sure, it's a large animal.
Especially if it's mother was no longer with it, it most certainly was older than that."
What comes to other things I don´t see any need to write again what I already said. My last posting said all what I think about this already and shared links.
11-19-2019, 04:54 AM( This post was last modified: 11-19-2019, 04:57 AM by Shadow )
(11-19-2019, 03:56 AM)Pckts Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The sub adult looks to be with in the range of the Rhino killed in question.
Also in regards to using zoo figures compared to wild figures
*This image is copyright of its original author
And here are measurements for different age groups
*This image is copyright of its original author
Unfortunately no weights to go along with them.
I didn´t see there anything in contradiction with a calf about one year old or a bit older to be around 600 kg. But your main point in this seems to be, that this rhino would have been much heavier and older. When only eaten part in photos is neck area, it´s impossible for me to share that. You are naturally free to believe so if you like.
So basically situation is, that I see there a calf about 600-700 kg and you see something more. Unless more information comes up, there is no point to continue this anymore.
That last sentence I wrote as a moderator. Nothing wrong in disagreeing, but enough is enough when talking about this irrelevant things concerning topic of this thread. If there is more about rhino size, weight etc. that can be written in thread concerning Greater one-horned rhino, no more in this thread :)
My main point is that the Rhino looks like a sub adult, the weight is an estimation and I have shown year old rhinos at less than half that estimation. Moderator or not, you've cotinued to speak your piece as I have as well, I agree that it doesnt need to be discussed further though.
11-19-2019, 10:44 AM( This post was last modified: 11-19-2019, 11:19 AM by Shadow )
(11-19-2019, 05:37 AM)Pckts Wrote: My main point is that the Rhino looks like a sub adult, the weight is an estimation and I have shown year old rhinos at less than half that estimation. Moderator or not, you've cotinued to speak your piece as I have as well, I agree that it doesnt need to be discussed further though.
Yes I did, because I was curious to see a bit how it goes and in this conversation there was nothing surprising really. And in the end typical outcome, I didn´t see you proving your point and of course it was impossible for me to prove 100% sure, what was the case with this calf (as I see it) because there isn´t enough information available.
I didn´t say, that time to end this discussion here to kill conversation if there is still will to continue about sizes of calves and adults etc. Just to put it to right place, because it changed to be only about rhino age and size and basically polluting this thread. And when some discussion goes to this level, that possible to continue endlessly, at some point it has to be stopped. Now this matter should be clear and if still something, there is thread Greater one-horned rhinos to discuss about those more. As I have said before, sometimes disagreement is outcome of debate, no matter what and that´s ok, there is nothing wrong in it.
(11-12-2019, 11:31 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: Wildlife Institute of India’s tiger expert, Rabin Sharma’s documented cases of Adult Rhino predation by tigers.
A small story about rhino & tiger in Kaziranga NationalPark
28th February,2008. I was supervising the field preparation for upcoming Population Estimation for Asiatic Wild Buffalo (Bubalus Arnee). With me was Tarun Gogoi(for mapping), Prabhat Hazarika (Armed Guard) & Lakhi Das(Driver). At around 2.40 pm we were travelling eastwards from Rutikhowa junction.
Suddenly, we saw a rhino was running very fast from our left side to right side crossing the road just in front of us. A deer(we presumed) ran (blurred) after the rhino. I immediately asked Lakhi to switch off the vehicle because I was anticipating a tiger to cross the road after the fleeing rhino & deer. In the meantime we heard a loud crashing sound towards our right. We waited for two minutes. No tiger. We thought that tiger has sensed us and aborted the hunt. So, we got down from the vehicle and gone to inspect the place from where crashing sound came. Behold! An adult female rhino was lying down in agony. Hamstrings of the hind legs were severed, no other injury. The rhino was fully alive. We returned to Rutikhowa Camp and brought the staff to show the location of the injured rhino. When, we reached the spot, fresh blood was oozing out from the hind portion. My friends insisted on taking few photos with a live wild rhino! Then I had fleeting glimpse of TIGERS (may be 3 or 4) approx. 40 feet behind my friends. Hurried back to the road and sent the msg to the Director Surendranath Buragohain & DFO Bankim Sarma. Next day rhino was found half devoured. (First 4 photos of that incident.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Second case involving an adult male rhino and a tiger. in this case, it seems the tiger died in the fight as well.
#WONDERFUL NATURE
It happens (only?) in Kaziranga National Park, a wildlife paradise.
11th November, 2017. Deep inside the Kaziranga Tiger Reserve widerness.
After thorough observation by Research Officer, Range Officer, Forest Veterinery Officer, Field Director, Deputy Field Director, Vets from CWRC, Honorary Wl Warden in presence of NTCA representatives, staff, media persons and after thorough Post Mortem, it was concluded that cause of death of two flagship species is 'interspecific fight', which is perfactly natural.
(Procedures had been completed at 9.30 pm)
Photo: Manik Ali responding to request of the angle with my camera.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
A dead rhino and a dead tiger 38 feet away from it. 7th November, 2017.
(Do not worry, no poaching involved. Only interspecific fight)
06-22-2021, 02:09 AM( This post was last modified: 06-22-2021, 02:09 AM by Apex Titan )
Adult rhinos are on the tigers menu:
"Tiger attacks on rhinos are not unheard of. Bengal tigers are known to prey on rhino calves and in some cases even adult rhinos make an appearance on the menu.Indian rhinos are listed as ‘Vulnerable’ on the IUCN Red List, while tigers are classified as 'Endangered'."
10-17-2022, 07:29 PM( This post was last modified: 10-17-2022, 07:34 PM by Apex Titan )
Although this case didn't happen in Kaziranga, its still relevant to this thread.
Tiger kills two rhinos in Chitwan
February, 2022
A tiger killed an adult rhino and its calf. Both dead rhinos were found pierced and scratched (mauled), indicating that they were attacked and killed by a tiger, thus removing any doubts against poachers:
Predation of Adult Rhino By Kaziranga Tigers: WII Expert Rabin Sharma’s Documentation
