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Plains Camp males

Ttimemarti Offline
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Only way it would be sustainable is if nkuhuma move to the west but you never know they’ve got 4 females to mate with they might not return to the west and potentially 3 more females to mate with but these guys don’t like younger adult females so yeah (2021 nkuhuma young females)
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RookiePundit Offline
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(05-14-2024, 10:57 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(05-14-2024, 10:50 PM)T I N O Wrote: Plains camp males featured finally on WildEarth! 

They had their "debut" on WE back in 2021 as young nomads.

Yes, I remember having high hopes for them how it would be neat to have impressive Mantimahle coalition progeny and unrelated blood become resident and have succes in 'Sabi Sands. Over time they came along nicely. Just bit too ruthless at times. Although one can only wonder what would happen if the encounter with Nkuhuma and Styx young males would go differently and the four would stick together instead of each duo going their own way. PCM being younger at the age when age difference mattered more seemed to be acting quite friendly.
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RookiePundit Offline
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(05-16-2024, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: They're definitely the Mapogo of this time.

I think there will be a big clash in the north soon, be it against Kambulas or Mantimahle/Ndhzengas coming to investigate.

I would like them more like Majingilane than Mapogos. Succesfully repoduce, don't kill indiscriminently but willing to make precision strikes with no qualms, however Majingilanes would nver let Tumbela to leave that airstip. So I'm lost to who to compared them to, they are after all a strong succeful coalition in their own right.
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RookiePundit Offline
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(05-17-2024, 04:12 AM)BA0701 Wrote: Personally, and yes subjectively, but I am not sure that the PCM or the Ndzengas want to mess with each other, otherwise we'd have seen the PCMs move east and go for the Kambulas, the biggest prize in all of SS, or we'd see the Nwas moving west to try and conquer all of the prides over there, we can toss the Gijimas in that mix as well. None of these three are pushing towards any of the others, I believe it is because the risk of doing so outweighs the possible reward. There is a lot of young cubs all around, so it would not take a lot to get drive those females into estrus, but regardless of which duo we are talking about, to go after any of those prides is to risk everything you have, I think they all understand the strength of the guardians that would await them.

We've seen, just recenty, some interactions between the Nkhulus and the Gijimas, it seems the Gijimas are more comfortable taking their chances with a splintered group of 6 than to push into the PCMs territory, but we haven't seen the PCMs moving into Gijima territory either.

Then again I don't think PCMs are even aware of Kambula and Ntsevu prides and their numbers. They could have moved through Mala Mala/Londolozi on their nomadic way to the north (seen on WE then) but that was far before the Ndzhengas takeover and I don't think they've come close enough to know about them since. They for sure hear roars of other males, but as for the prides itself, they would just instinctively know there are bound to be some females, especially if their consistently hear dominant males roars from there, but don't realize if that is really the case or how many and it is currently too far for them. (at least I would say :) )
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RookiePundit Offline
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(05-18-2024, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @BA0701 No, I meant that the Ximhungwe will be the new NK Breakaways in the sense they'll be another small pride ( 2 adults and 2 cubs ) that the PCM stops visiting after they take over a bigger pride.

PCM borderline stopped visiting the NK Breakaways after they took over the Mangheni pride. Luckily for the NK Breakaways though is that they were still in the core of the PCM territory so they didn't lose any members to other males, but in compensation lost the 2 adults to the Manghenis.

However the Ximhungwe are at a great risk of losing all their protection since in this case the PCM would be moving to another territory far away from the Ximhungwe. In the Mangheni case the Manghenis's historical territory was already in the PCM core territory so the PCM didn't shift their territory to take over them.

Another reason I think contributed for the PCM stopping visiting the NK Breakaways was Purple Eye's death. With only 1 adult lioness available the PCM were probably less motivated to visit, it's not like Ridge Nose could offer them much food. Solo females are rarely visited by their dominant males.

In the case of the Manghenis, it may be the case that the PCM are already not visiting them often anymore, in the past 2 months or so we only had 1 sighting of them together ( a few days ago ), it could be that it's because we don't get much sightings of Singita, but the sightings we had of them were never together, either we saw Manghenis by themselves or the PCM by themselves. Another member pointed out that this might also be because the cubs are over 1yo ( age the NK Breakaways were when the PCM stopped visiting ), the older Mangheni cubs are a few months over 1yo now and the youngest cub turns 1 next month.

2/5 Mangheni females are very old, let's not forget, they'll probably not live for much longer, with the cubs getting older and if 2 females die, the PCM will have even less motivation to visit, less food and in their eyes cubs that are already too big to need much attention.

We saw, however, what happens when dominant males abandon their cubs too early, the Styx pride was decimated and probably only still exists ( as well as the 2 Southern daughters of Ndhzengas ) because the Gijimas are surprisingly tolerant of female subadults.

We can also look at the Talamatis, S8 died and very quickly his subs followed him, currently I think only the male sub is accounted for... If we go back a little longer, Majingilanes died and 10/12 Mangheni subs died with them.

 
If the PCM abandons any of their 2 prides before the cubs are at least 3yo, things might not end well for them, especially if they get abandoned before they are even 2y, and the oldest Mangheni cubs need 9 more months till they turn 2yo, Ximhungwe and youngest Mangheni cub need around a year.
Let's just hope it won't lead to Mhangeni 12 2.0.
(OT, sorry)
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NLAL11 Offline
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(05-21-2024, 06:27 PM)RookiePundit Wrote:
(05-18-2024, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @BA0701 No, I meant that the Ximhungwe will be the new NK Breakaways in the sense they'll be another small pride ( 2 adults and 2 cubs ) that the PCM stops visiting after they take over a bigger pride.

PCM borderline stopped visiting the NK Breakaways after they took over the Mangheni pride. Luckily for the NK Breakaways though is that they were still in the core of the PCM territory so they didn't lose any members to other males, but in compensation lost the 2 adults to the Manghenis.

However the Ximhungwe are at a great risk of losing all their protection since in this case the PCM would be moving to another territory far away from the Ximhungwe. In the Mangheni case the Manghenis's historical territory was already in the PCM core territory so the PCM didn't shift their territory to take over them.

Another reason I think contributed for the PCM stopping visiting the NK Breakaways was Purple Eye's death. With only 1 adult lioness available the PCM were probably less motivated to visit, it's not like Ridge Nose could offer them much food. Solo females are rarely visited by their dominant males.

In the case of the Manghenis, it may be the case that the PCM are already not visiting them often anymore, in the past 2 months or so we only had 1 sighting of them together ( a few days ago ), it could be that it's because we don't get much sightings of Singita, but the sightings we had of them were never together, either we saw Manghenis by themselves or the PCM by themselves. Another member pointed out that this might also be because the cubs are over 1yo ( age the NK Breakaways were when the PCM stopped visiting ), the older Mangheni cubs are a few months over 1yo now and the youngest cub turns 1 next month.

2/5 Mangheni females are very old, let's not forget, they'll probably not live for much longer, with the cubs getting older and if 2 females die, the PCM will have even less motivation to visit, less food and in their eyes cubs that are already too big to need much attention.

We saw, however, what happens when dominant males abandon their cubs too early, the Styx pride was decimated and probably only still exists ( as well as the 2 Southern daughters of Ndhzengas ) because the Gijimas are surprisingly tolerant of female subadults.

We can also look at the Talamatis, S8 died and very quickly his subs followed him, currently I think only the male sub is accounted for... If we go back a little longer, Majingilanes died and 10/12 Mangheni subs died with them.

 
If the PCM abandons any of their 2 prides before the cubs are at least 3yo, things might not end well for them, especially if they get abandoned before they are even 2y, and the oldest Mangheni cubs need 9 more months till they turn 2yo, Ximhungwe and youngest Mangheni cub need around a year.
Let's just hope it won't lead to Mhangeni 12 2.0.
(OT, sorry)

This has been my concern. The two original Mangheni lionesses left will be turning 15 this year (born 2009) or have already turned 15, and most likely won't be around much longer. This will leave 3 lionesses taking care of 10 cubs/subs, possibly with no pride males around. Very similar to the situation that lead to the Mhangeni 12.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@RookiePundit 

Majingilanes left a young Sand River Male go with his life in 2012, and 4 Majingilane left a Selati male go with his life in 2014. All lions sometimes leave a enemy to go.

I'd prefer them to be like Majingilane too, but they aren't, they are like the 2 youngest Mapogo, I just hope they don't meet a similar fate. Mr.T and KT had a huge territory too, acted in the same way and had a lot of cubs as well, and we know what happened, eventually the big coalition stopped avoiding them, 1 died fighting the big coalition and lots of cubs followed him to the grave, all would have died if there weren't 4 other Mapogo and if Tailless Tsalala had not worked a miracle raising 4 cubs as a nomad.

PCM don't have 4 other brothers.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@NLAL11 Old females have turned 15 already.

The hope is that even if the PCM take over the NK pride, they don't abandon Manghenis and also don't get killed by Kambulas or other coalitions. Then if the 2 OG females can survive in good form for one more year, the burden on the 3 younger females will be much smaller as the cubs, being 2yo now, will be able to hunt too.
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BA0701 Offline
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(05-21-2024, 10:10 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Old females have turned 15 already.

The hope is that even if the PCM take over the NK pride, they don't abandon Manghenis and also don't get killed by Kambulas or other coalitions. Then if the 2 OG females can survive in good form for one more year, the burden on the 3 younger females will be much smaller as the cubs, being 2yo now, will be able to hunt too.

That is what I am hoping for as well. They have already shown us a willingness to traverse great distances, regularly, to keep an eye on those other prides. The question is, for how long will they be willing to do that, along with the fact that traveling those distances takes time, and it only take a brief minute or two for a pair of males to wipe out all of a prides cubs, especially younger cubs. That is the fear with Skorro Jr and NYM being out west currently. @Tr1x24 mentioned he doesn't believe that those two will make such a move, due to their experience with the PCMs. I hope he's right, but what happens if the Gijimas or the Nwas don't hear those roars for a minute, and decide to go investigate?
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NLAL11 Offline
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(05-21-2024, 10:10 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Old females have turned 15 already.

The hope is that even if the PCM take over the NK pride, they don't abandon Manghenis and also don't get killed by Kambulas or other coalitions. Then if the 2 OG females can survive in good form for one more year, the burden on the 3 younger females will be much smaller as the cubs, being 2yo now, will be able to hunt too.

I don't think things will necessarily be better for the Mhangenis when the cubs are 2 year old subs. If I remember correctly the M 12 were abandoned when they were subs, not cubs. 2 year olds can hunt, if they need to, but I don't think they participate in hunts that much if they're part of a bigger pride and have a few lionesses to bring down the prey. And yet, as they get bigger, their appetites grow. So they don't necessarily add anything to the hunts, but demand more and more food.

If the older girls were to last one more year, and say died a year from now, I think that would (will) put a huge burden on the three younger lionesses, just as things were reaching a critical point. And if the PC males have gone?...
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@NLAL11 Mangheni 12 were below 2yo IIRC, they were abandoned as nomads and got sick.

In a pride, being territorial, 2+ year old subs are unlikely to starve to death.
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RookiePundit Offline
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(05-22-2024, 12:20 AM)NLAL11 Wrote:
(05-21-2024, 10:10 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Old females have turned 15 already.

The hope is that even if the PCM take over the NK pride, they don't abandon Manghenis and also don't get killed by Kambulas or other coalitions. Then if the 2 OG females can survive in good form for one more year, the burden on the 3 younger females will be much smaller as the cubs, being 2yo now, will be able to hunt too.

I don't think things will necessarily be better for the Mhangenis when the cubs are 2 year old subs. If I remember correctly the M 12 were abandoned when they were subs, not cubs. 2 year olds can hunt, if they need to, but I don't think they participate in hunts that much if they're part of a bigger pride and have a few lionesses to bring down the prey. And yet, as they get bigger, their appetites grow. So they don't necessarily add anything to the hunts, but demand more and more food.

If the older girls were to last one more year, and say died a year from now, I think that would (will) put a huge burden on the three younger lionesses, just as things were reaching a critical point. And if the PC males have gone?...
The significnant issue was also that males:females ratio of the 12 was 9:3 iirc. 9 subadult males to feed will put pressure on any pride. Not sure what's the ration of the current cubs, afaik Kambula cubs sex ratio is allegedly skewed heavily towards more males.
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United States GhostCatP-22 Offline
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(05-22-2024, 12:34 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Mangheni 12 were below 2yo IIRC, they were abandoned as nomads and got sick.

In a pride, being territorial, 2+ year old subs are unlikely to starve to death.

I believe only 2 of the 12 was over 2 years old and the youngest was a year younger. There was an adult that did initially leave with them but I don’t know what happened to her, if she passed away or went back to the pride. Very strange that the lionesses didn’t have enough of a bond with the cubs for a couple to leave and lead the cubs.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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It was the 4th mhangeni that passed away no idea how… my belief is that the Birmingham males would’ve come and killed the cubs so they left only 3 of them left and the last females stayed back with the 12 and the 3 majinagline males but soon after the 3 males and the lone mother died but I didn’t follow these lions back then but from I was told and read up on that’s what happened potentially
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lionuk Offline
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(05-22-2024, 01:34 AM)RookiePundit Wrote:
(05-22-2024, 12:20 AM)NLAL11 Wrote:
(05-21-2024, 10:10 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 Old females have turned 15 already.

The hope is that even if the PCM take over the NK pride, they don't abandon Manghenis and also don't get killed by Kambulas or other coalitions. Then if the 2 OG females can survive in good form for one more year, the burden on the 3 younger females will be much smaller as the cubs, being 2yo now, will be able to hunt too.

I don't think things will necessarily be better for the Mhangenis when the cubs are 2 year old subs. If I remember correctly the M 12 were abandoned when they were subs, not cubs. 2 year olds can hunt, if they need to, but I don't think they participate in hunts that much if they're part of a bigger pride and have a few lionesses to bring down the prey. And yet, as they get bigger, their appetites grow. So they don't necessarily add anything to the hunts, but demand more and more food.

If the older girls were to last one more year, and say died a year from now, I think that would (will) put a huge burden on the three younger lionesses, just as things were reaching a critical point. And if the PC males have gone?...
The significnant issue was also that males:females ratio of the 12 was 9:3 iirc. 9 subadult males to feed will put pressure on any pride. Not sure what's the ration of the current cubs, afaik Kambula cubs sex ratio is allegedly skewed heavily towards more males.

The Mhangeni pride has 5 males and 5 females cubs. Looks like that the Plains Camp males probably have realized there's power vacuum in the north i.e. no resident pride males, which it's why they have been spending time up there lately. But hopefully they will return to the west soon to reassure their prides.
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