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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - B - THE LION (Panthera leo)

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-04-2018, 12:34 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

Does this mean that the Lionzilla was actually a Barbary lion?

Since Egypt belonged to the former range of the Barbary lion.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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Is posible, and that also may explain the large skull in the sample of J. H. Mazák for the Barbary population in his document about the skull of lions. However, until know, the only sure thing is that this animal was from Egypt, and probably from captive origin which will explain the great size and expecially the great wide of the skull.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-04-2018, 01:41 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

(11-04-2018, 01:25 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Is posible, and that also may explain the large skull in the sample of J. H. Mazák for the Barbary population in his document about the skull of lions. However, until know, the only sure thing is that this animal was from Egypt, and probably from captive origin which will explain the great size and expecially the great wide of the skull.

If it belonged to the Barbary lion which was also known for having proportionally wider skull.

This may also explain the variation of size within the Barbary lion populations. Some population with more available food sources may grow larger than others, just like the difference between the Sub-Sarahan lion.
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-05-2018, 12:16 AM by johnny rex )

(11-04-2018, 12:07 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wow, well done @johnny rex!!! Ok, let's take a look to these pictures. Did you take it, or it was another person?

To be honest is very hard to see the exactly size in the meter to the 1/16 of an inch, specially because of the curvatures and that some parts are not completelly flat, but IF I see correctly, the greatest length from incisors to the posterior end of the inion is about 16 1/4 in (413 mm) which means that excluding the incisors and taking the length from the anterior end of the premaxillary it will be about 407 mm; the byzigomatics arches are about 11 1/2 in (292 mm). This is in fact the widest skull from a lion that I know.

To make a comparison, the largest and widest wild-origin skulls from scientific records are 401 X 247 mm and 393 x 256 mm respectively, both from Southern Africa (Roberts, 1951). From captive specimens, the longest and widest skull that I know is a specimen of 410 X 300 mm from Egypt, probably a captive "Barbary" lion (Saber & Gummow, 2014). From Rowland Ward edition of 1975 the longest and widest skulls are 420.7 X 273 mm and 384.2 X 288.9 mm (it doesn't say if are "owner's measurements" or measured by Rowland Ward's company staff). Finally the extra large lion from Boneclones.com is of 393 X 278 mm.

With all these skulls for comparison, it seems that this "Lionzilla" skull match almoust perfectly with the giant lion skull from the Egypt museum. I will corroborate with the authors if the large skull is the same specimen from the National Circus in Egypt.

I have a very large database of wild and captive skulls, and the only "real" specimen that match the measurements of the "Lionzilla" skull is the the Egyptian specimen. Is posible that these two skulls are, in fact, one and the same?

No, this skull is not mine. The other day I asked the owner of the Lionzilla skull to measure the skull with the same measurement method like the previous slightly exceeded 12-inch wide liger skull that was posted somewhere in this forum. In conclusion, both male tigers and lions attained the same skull dimensions. Remember the 15.75 inch long and 11.5 inch wide tiger skull? The tiger skull and this Lionzilla skull got the same skull width with the lion skull being a little bit longer. I'm not sure if this skull is the same as the Egyptian specimen, because the owner of the skull cast said the lion was shot in the 50s-60s according to the owner of the original skull. I'm still not sure.
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-05-2018, 12:14 AM by johnny rex )

Anyway, we just have to wait for the real measurements of Altai's skull.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(11-04-2018, 12:33 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Does this mean that the Lionzilla was actually a Barbary lion?

Since Egypt belonged to the former range of the Barbary lion.

Though the Barbary lion of North Africa is the same subspecies as other formerly described subspecies, such as the Asiatic (https://web.archive.org/web/200708081825...0lions.pdf) and West African lions (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep3080..._evolution; Page 72: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y), Egypt has another formerly described subspecies which, unlike the Atlas lion, did not inhabit the rather temperate region of the Atlas Mountains, but the desert region of Nubia, which Egypt shares with Sudan. This was the Nubian lion (Panthera leo nubica), whose scientific name was often used for the East African lion (formerly Panthera leo massaica: https://web.archive.org/web/201707281311...ra_leo.pdf).

Nubian lion in New York Zoo, 1903: https://archive.org/stream/annualreportn...9/mode/1up

*This image is copyright of its original author


Do you know the MGM lion called 'Jackie'? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SowXXsl8Xys 

He was said to be from the Nubian desert of Sudan, so there you go, a Nubian lion: https://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/201...l_tid.html
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(11-11-2018, 08:28 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(11-04-2018, 12:33 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Does this mean that the Lionzilla was actually a Barbary lion?

Since Egypt belonged to the former range of the Barbary lion.

Though the Barbary lion of North Africa is the same subspecies as other formerly described subspecies, such as the Asiatic (https://web.archive.org/web/200708081825...0lions.pdf) and West African lions (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep3080..._evolution; Page 72: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y), Egypt has another formerly described subspecies which, unlike the Atlas lion, did not inhabit the rather temperate region of the Atlas Mountains, but the desert region of Nubia, which Egypt shares with Sudan. This was the Nubian lion (Panthera leo nubica), whose scientific name was often used for the East African lion (formerly Panthera leo massaica: https://web.archive.org/web/201707281311...ra_leo.pdf).

Nubian lion in New York Zoo, 1903: https://archive.org/stream/annualreportn...9/mode/1up

*This image is copyright of its original author


Do you know the MGM lion called 'Jackie'? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SowXXsl8Xys 

He was said to be from the Nubian desert of Sudan, so there you go, a Nubian lion: https://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/201...l_tid.html

Some assumption suggests that the Northeast African lions were hybrid of the Barbary lions and Nubian lions, since the dark mane was quite prevalent over there.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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Trophy hunting is a very controversial topic. Here we have a study that shows moratoriums on hunting can have a major beneficial effect in just 3 years:

Quantifying lion (Panthera leo) demographic response following a three-year moratorium on trophy hunting

The most important statistics from the work in my opinion:
"Closed mark-recapture models revealed a large increase in lion abundance during the hunting moratorium, from 116 lions in 2012 immediately preceding the moratorium to 209 lions in the last year of the moratorium. More cubs were produced each year of the moratorium than in any year with trophy hunting. Lion demographics shifted from a male-depleted population consisting mostly of adult (≥4 years) females to a younger population with more (>29%) adult males."
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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(11-23-2018, 12:16 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Trophy hunting is a very controversial topic. Here we have a study that shows moratoriums on hunting can have a major beneficial effect in just 3 years:

Quantifying lion (Panthera leo) demographic response following a three-year moratorium on trophy hunting

The most important statistics from the work in my opinion:
"Closed mark-recapture models revealed a large increase in lion abundance during the hunting moratorium, from 116 lions in 2012 immediately preceding the moratorium to 209 lions in the last year of the moratorium. More cubs were produced each year of the moratorium than in any year with trophy hunting. Lion demographics shifted from a male-depleted population consisting mostly of adult (≥4 years) females to a younger population with more (>29%) adult males."

What do you think of the Lionzilla skull? Any thoughts?
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-23-2018, 08:37 AM by tigerluver )

(11-23-2018, 12:26 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(11-23-2018, 12:16 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Trophy hunting is a very controversial topic. Here we have a study that shows moratoriums on hunting can have a major beneficial effect in just 3 years:

Quantifying lion (Panthera leo) demographic response following a three-year moratorium on trophy hunting

The most important statistics from the work in my opinion:
"Closed mark-recapture models revealed a large increase in lion abundance during the hunting moratorium, from 116 lions in 2012 immediately preceding the moratorium to 209 lions in the last year of the moratorium. More cubs were produced each year of the moratorium than in any year with trophy hunting. Lion demographics shifted from a male-depleted population consisting mostly of adult (≥4 years) females to a younger population with more (>29%) adult males."

What do you think of the Lionzilla skull? Any thoughts?


I don’t see any odd features from the skull itself other than its exceptional size. If the mandible can be found we could perhaps see if the specimen had signs of acromegaly.
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-23-2018, 08:47 PM by johnny rex )

Here are the other pictures of the exceptional Lionzilla skull, @tigerluver . The picture at the bottom is a comparison between an average adult male lion skull measuring total score 24.5", the Lionzilla skull and a Siberian tiger skull cast measuring total score 25.5". The Lionzilla skull seems to have very pronounced zygomatic arches.

   
   
   
   
   
   
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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A skull size comparison between Lionzilla skull and the 15.75 inches long and 11.5 inches wide tiger skull, with Lionzilla skull being a little bit longer.
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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Guys, do you have any full information about 260kg male lion in Etosha national park?


*This image is copyright of its original author
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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*This image is copyright of its original author

 Lion body measurements

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(12-22-2018, 04:28 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

 Lion body measurements

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

The mane is depicted at its maximum, looks Barbaryish or Capish: 

Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo) by Joseph Bassett Holder: https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/item...0a18064a99

*This image is copyright of its original author


Cape lions (Panthera leo melanochaitus) by Alfred Brehm: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20129/201...0129-h.htm 

*This image is copyright of its original author
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