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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Canada Wolverine Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-01-2018, 10:54 AM by Wolverine )

(08-30-2018, 08:56 PM)Spalea Wrote: I could have thought about "The jungle book"... After all the tiger Shere Khan was just obsessed by Mowgly. But is this a real story ?

Suprisingly enough maybe there is some true in the story about Shere Khan and his "servant" - Tabaki the jackal, serving as a spy of his master - the tiger. In India are known some special satellite jackals called "kol-bahl" a few words about them are written even in wiki:

"In India, lone jackals expelled from their pack have been known to form commensal relationships with tigers. These solitary jackals, known as [i]kol-bahl[/i], will associate themselves with a particular tiger, trailing it at a safe distance to feed on the big cat's kills. A [i]kol-bahl[/i] will even alert a tiger to prey with a loud "pheal". Tigers have been known to tolerate these jackals, with one report describing how a jackal confidently walked in and out between three tigers walking together."


This jackal is quite a mysterious creature and literaly could serve as a eyes and ears of the tiger. This relationship could become particulary ominous if the tiger turn to be a man-eater. The great British hunter Keneth Anderson in his blood-freezing documentary story "The Call of the Man-eater" describes a case when such a jackal make "reconnaissance" work for the tiger finding out a lonely people close to the villages and informing the tiger about their presence with laud hawling. After half an hour the man-eater usually arrives and kills the victim. If a danger appears the jackal informs the tiger by alarm barking. Keneth Anderson needed several weeks to realise what really is going on. 
@Rishi do you know something more about kol-bahl?


Here is a old Soviet version of Kipling's Jungle Book, my favourite from childhood:




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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-01-2018, 03:11 PM by Rishi )

(08-31-2018, 12:37 PM)Vegeta San Wrote: So you telling that tiger takes many days to kill a adult gaur? 
No you're wrong at this. It doesn't take much time for a Tiger to kill a healthy adult gaur. The last post of @peter has shown few cases of Tiger killing adult bull wild buffalos instantly.

Quote:But it doesn't take days to kill a gaur! Tiger is not a house cat. That quote from @Wolverine is totally wrong! 

You shouldn't just call someone "totally wrong" like that. 

The cases of quick kills have been recorded, but that doesn't make them the norm. The tiger predation thread is full of hamstringed gaurs with open rumps & untouched throat. Cases of tigers injuring gaurs & finishing them off later are also there.

The fact is that we have till date only one full footage of a tiger hunting a gaur, against probably thousands of lions' bullfalo hunt. That is how less we know what exactly happens. 

IMO we best start collecting what the forest guides & guards have to say. They know more that all the internet combined...



(09-01-2018, 10:49 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Suprisingly enough maybe there is some true in the story about Shere Khan and his "servant" - Tabaki the jackal, serving as a spy of his master - the tiger. In India are known some special satellite jackals called "kol-bahl" a few words about them are written even in wiki:

"In India, lone jackals expelled from their pack have been known to form commensal relationships with tigers. These solitary jackals, known as [i]kol-bahl[/i], will associate themselves with a particular tiger, trailing it at a safe distance to feed on the big cat's kills. A [i]kol-bahl[/i] will even alert a tiger to prey with a loud "pheal". Tigers have been known to tolerate these jackals, with one report describing how a jackal confidently walked in and out between three tigers walking together."

This jackal is quite a mysterious creature and literaly could serve as a eyes and ears of the tiger. This relationship could become particulary ominous if the tiger turn to be a man-eater. The great British hunter Keneth Anderson in his blood-freezing documentary story "The Call of the Man-eater" describes a case when such a jackal make "reconnaissance" work for the tiger finding out a lonely people close to the villages and informing the tiger about their presence with laud hawling. After half an hour the man-eater usually arrives and kills the victim. If a danger appears the jackal informs the tiger by alarm barking. Keneth Anderson needed several weeks to realise what really is going on. 

@Rishi do you know something more about kol-bahl?

Yes. It often happens. They follow the tigers just like arctic foxes often shadow polar bears.

Actually they have quite a popular duo (like tom & jerry) in Bengali childrens' literature. The shrewd jackal calls the tiger "maternal uncle" & tiger calls him "nephhew". The jackal play tricks on the tiger & so on... I had the whole collection, they were my favourites as a kid. Can't find the book now. Here's few examples, see if it can translate. My platform is bengali compatible, it doesn't...
বাঘ_মামা_আর_শিয়াল_ভাগ্নে
বোকা_বাঘ
বাঘের_পালকি_চড়া
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United States paul cooper Offline
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(09-01-2018, 12:26 AM)Vegeta San Wrote:
Pckts Wrote:a large Bull is NOT being taken down quickly and especially not by a throat hold, at least not by anything other than an exceptional specimen and predation. Even the last photo you show is from a very old Bull named Odin, he fought the Tiger all night long and lived to tell the tale.


Yeah I just got this quote from famous book "wild cats of the world" by "Mel sunquist"!

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=IF8n...es&f=false

Gaur bulls are more immune to tiger predation (you guys know that). Maybe it takes a little more time in a face to face encounters, but in ambush tigers indeed kill them in a little time.

But it doesn't take days to kill a gaur! Tiger is not a house cat. That quote from @Wolverine is totally wrong! 

I didn't said a Gaur can't fought off a tiger. Odin just fought off a tiger didn't killed either. Yet there are cases of gaur killing tigers,bu b most of them are not adult males.

VEGETA.. sunquist's "invunerable" gaur:

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India Suhail Offline
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(08-23-2018, 11:54 AM)Rishi Wrote: Thanks for that.

The subspecies is actually a kinda vague term. For example, tigers of northeast India were much better linked indo-china than central India. Two adjoining  "subspecies" literally merge into each other with no definite dividing line...

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Even among classic Bengal tigers, the tigers residing far south of peninsula can be visibly differentiated from the tigers of Shivalik (Himalayan foothills). The same could probably be said for Indochinese & Malayans.

Other than being grouped in conservation units, the recent extensive genome mapping has shown many local variations amongst India's tigers. Some info are gathered here in the In What Groups Can We Divide Bengal Tigers thread. 

ResearchGate link to original study: High coverage genome sequencing and identification of genomic variants in Bengal tigers.

Quote:Bengal Tiger genome sequenced
This genome was compared with that of a Amur or Siberian tiger, the new data reveals major variations between the two.

20 May 2018, India

The genome of the Royal Bengal tiger, an endangered big cat, has been mapped to generate a high-quality draft genome sequence of the animal.

The scientists from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CSIR-CCMB) and a Hyderabad-based private company carried out the sequencing and identification of genome variants in Bengal tiger.

During the study, it was observed that "For a very long time it was believed that single nucleotide variants (SNVs) contribute to a majority of the individual genomic variations. Now it is recognized, albeit poorly understood, that much larger changes in the genome like structural variants and copy number variants also contribute significantly to disease susceptibility, phenotypic variations and immunity."

This genome was compared with that of an Amur or Siberian tiger, the new data reveals major variations between the two. Amur tiger occurs in sub-temperate and snow-covered habitats while the Bengal tiger occupies diverse tropical habitats like Himalayan foothills or the Western Ghats.

Insights can be obtained through the Genome data. The genetic differences at the individual level which ranges from a single nucleotide to large structural variants can also be known through it. It provides information about the role of gene variants in adaptation to the environment and disease susceptibility.

Dr Rakesh Mishra, Director CCMB said that genome sequencing will help in the precise understanding of the evolutionary linkage of the organism. He also added that epigenetic analysis will be possible once the genome is available.

Dr. P. Anuradha Reddy, the lead author of the paper said that the numerous SSRs and SNVs identified in the genome can be used to strengthen forensic evidence in tiger poaching cases.

Now, i understand that the ScienceMag link you'd provided clearly says "...differences may have been overemphasized simply owing to fragmentary sampling along a more or less complex cline of variation (413). This was recently illustrated for Bengal tigers, where seemingly clear molecular differences among current Bengal tiger populations (14) vanished after museum specimens from extinct Bengal tiger populations were included in analyses"...suggesting that historical tiger populations might have been much less dissimilar.

However most Indian habitats are still surprisingly well-connected even today & with recent increase in number, tigers have been popping up everywhere.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Indeed mutual isolation of populations due to poaching in unprotected corridors could be partially responsible, but increase in numbers & better management at landscape level are the solution.
The regional genetic uniqueness & adaptions would still have to be protected individually. Whatever intermixing takes place must happen naturally... unless they're a lost cause like Caspian or Chinese tigers.

Bottom line, even if all of Mainland Asia's tigers were indeed one subspecies, it won't make any change from conservation standpoint. 
Older scientific studies get proven wrong all the time, & this is genetics were taking about. IMO it would be an extreme folly to risk polluting the tiger populations.

Indian zoos have already interbred tigers from different parts of India & severely botched up future rewilding prospects.

Is nagarjunasagar-sri venkateswara landscape landscape a part of central indian landscape?.as there is no corridor to central india.and why not be in southindia?

seshachalam biosphere reserve(sri venkateswara nationa park)has direct link towardsnagarjunasagar(10000 sq km landscape).
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c...nsstr.html  seshachalam inturns connected towards the nilgiri biosphere reserve,through some forest paches.these forests patches are important elephant corridor aswell.nearly 100 elephants inhabits in this corridor.besides 50 elephants in seshachalam.which suggest the corridor is not bad at all.
Seshachalam biosphere reserve is a region to which elephants have returned after 200 years. In the last decade, elephants have been migrating more than ever before, looking for habitable forests. From 1983 to 1986, a sizable number of elephants began their journey from the forests of nilgiri biosphere reserve to seek alternative homes in sehechalam reserve ,which connected to nagarjunasagar.
Figure showing elephant dispersal corridor from nilgiri biosphere to sri venkateswara national park:

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 So nagarjunasagar tiger reserve has a potential to be a elephant habitat in future .as well as the two large metapopulation of tiger(nagarjunasagar and nilgiri biosphere)to be connected by this corridor.
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@Suhail l very good your posting that will add content to the post of @Rishi 1747. It is a very important conservation aspect for all animals in the ecosystem. The tiger is functionally an "umbrella" species, that is, its presence is a reflection of the functional integrity of the environment. Maintaining functional corridors will be the future responsible for the natural health of the population, avoiding that human manipulation lead to procedures of reallocation / reintroduction, among other positive aspects, such as the simple existence of habitat.

In my point of view, it is very good that practical aspects of conservation have greater approaches. Presenting the tiger reserves, their population, their territory, number of prey, problems faced, existing tourism ventures, support infrastructure, projects that are being carried out, etc., would give everyone a deeper and more comprehensive view of reality by tigers in Indian territory.
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( This post was last modified: 09-03-2018, 11:59 AM by Rishi )

(09-02-2018, 08:41 PM)Suhail Wrote:
Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

Is nagarjunasagar-sri venkateswara landscape landscape a part of central indian landscape?.as there is no corridor to central india.and why not be in southindia?

seshachalam biosphere reserve(sri venkateswara nationa park)has direct link towardsnagarjunasagar(10000 sq km landscape).
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c...nsstr.html  seshachalam inturns connected towards the nilgiri biosphere reserve,through some forest paches.these forests patches are important elephant corridor aswell.nearly 100 elephants inhabits in this corridor.besides 50 elephants in seshachalam.which suggest the corridor is not bad at all.
Seshachalam biosphere reserve is a region to which elephants have returned after 200 years. In the last decade, elephants have been migrating more than ever before, looking for habitable forests. From 1983 to 1986, a sizable number of elephants began their journey from the forests of nilgiri biosphere reserve to seek alternative homes in sehechalam reserve ,which connected to nagarjunasagar.
Figure showing elephant dispersal corridor from nilgiri biosphere to sri venkateswara national park:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 So nagarjunasagar tiger reserve has a potential to be a elephant habitat in future .as well as the two large metapopulation of tiger(nagarjunasagar and nilgiri biosphere)to be connected by this corridor.

You are quite right... 50 years from now South India might become a single conservation unit. (Which state are you from btw?)

Actually as NagarjunSagar (NSTR) region is the northernmost part of southern section of Eastern Ghat before it's bifurcated by Krishna-Godavari basins, those parts were fairly well connected to forests of Telengana/Gadchiroli that's the largest wilderness complex in Central India.
Understandably those tigers had a lot of genetic similarity, especially because to the southwest scrubland seperated it from the western ghats. 


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When the tiger populations south of Gundla Brahmeswaram (GBM) Sanctuary dried up, only they remained. Only very recently tiger population has grown enough to migrate out of NSTR. With north not an option, they are swiftly spreading south...

Quote:Tigers in 12 more grids outside protected areas in Andhra Pradesh, finds survey
U Sudhakar Reddy | TNN | Jun 7, 2018

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HYDERABAD: Tiger presence is seen in 12 grids outside protected areas in Andhra Pradesh, according to the latest survey by experts hired by the AP Forest department.

Based on the study, experts recommended that the existing Gundla Brahmeswaram sanctuary should be declared as a separate tiger reserve as it is challenging to manage the Nagarjunsagar-Srisailam tiger reserve along with it.  
They also proposed that the newer areas of Nandyal, Giddalur and Prodattur Division should be declared as another new wildlife sanctuary.

The recent report revealed the presence of tigers in at least 34 grids out of the total 206 grids. This has added at least 1,228 square kilometre of tiger habitat to what was previously known in the Eastern Ghats.

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Lankamalleswara wildlife sanctuary already has tigers, who have made this sanctuary their transient home as one of them is breeding.
A narrow corridor between Lankamalleswara & Seshachalam hills exist at the backwaters of Somasila.  
Sri Venkateshwara National Park (SVNP), the core area of Seshachalam Biosphere Reserve, is a highly protected area sans villages or human activity & is considered to be the best one in Andhra Pradesh.

Tigers are expected to occupy this area within 2020.
So in the next decade we can expect genetic exchange between Eastern Ghat & Nilgiri though Koundiya Wildlife Sanctuary. 
The place already resident elephants that have come in from Cauvery WS in Tamil Nadu which link Nilgiri to Eastern Ghats.

@parvez can you find out if NSTR is still connected with Papikonda NP & Kawal TR?
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( This post was last modified: 09-03-2018, 11:38 AM by Wolverine )

(09-01-2018, 12:26 AM)Vegeta San Wrote: But it doesn't take days to kill a gaur! Tiger is not a house cat. That quote … is totally wrong!

It is right. Could be remembered two cases of prolonged fights between tigers and gaurs:

1. In his documentary story "The Big Bull Bison of Gedesal" the famous British hunter Kenneth Anderson decribes a case when a bull gaur has fight all night long for his life with a male tiger. The terrific roars from the battle were heard for many hours in surrounding village. Both beasts were very tenasious and nobody wanted to give a way. When Anderson arrived next morning at the place he saw the dead body of the tiger and the vegetation around was totally smashed during the struggle. Gaur succeeded to penetrate with his horn the chest of the tiger and poke his heart. The bull was so badly wounded that Andesron described that his intestines were pulling out (curiosly enough I don't remember about any neck wounds). Amazingly step by step the big bull recovered during next weeks and survived. 
You can read the story "The Big Bull Bison of Gedesal" in this book and order it by amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author


2. The recent case with the male gaur "Odin" mentioned by PC. Two animals also fighted all night long, tiger was obviously searching the weak place of the bull but finally decided that its two strong to be killed. The story with the male gaur Odin in details was posted earlier in wildfact with photos. 

Odin:

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Ok. So now Vegeta San let's imagine that Odin was not so strong, but a bit weaker. After causing him some wounds the tiger feeling that the herbivore is progressively weakening by losing blood and traumas will not leave the surroundings but will check the gaur the second night and the third night for sure and if decides that the gaur is already not enough strong will kill it, be sure. So as you can see the statement that tiger hunt of bull gaur could take a long periods of time is not completely wrong, but completely right.
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Wolverine Wrote:It is right. Could be remembered two cases of prolonged fights between tigers and gaurs:
Quote:1. In his documentary story "The Big Bull Bison of Gedesal" the famous British hunter Kenneth Anderson decribes a case when a bull gaur has fight all night long for his life with a male tiger. The terrific roars from the battle were heard for many hours in surrounding village. Both beasts were very tenasious and nobody wanted to give a way. When Anderson arrived next morning at the place he saw the dead body of the tiger and the vegetation around was totally smashed during the struggle. Gaur succeeded to penetrate with his horn the chest of the tiger and poke his heart. The bull was so badly wounded that Andesron described that his intestines were pulling out (curiosly enough I don't remember about any neck wounds). Amazingly step by step the big bull recovered during next weeks and survived. 
You can read the story "The Big Bull Bison of Gedesal" in this book and order it by amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I didn't said a bull can't fought off a tiger. But that based on tiger and it's mood. Do you have any details about this particular tiger. As predator will not always to be serious but prey will try to fought off predator too serious and until last drop of blood.

Wolverine Wrote:2
Quote:. The recent case with the male gaur "Odin" mentioned by PC. Two animals also fighted all night long, tiger was obviously searching the weak place of the bull but finally decided that its two strong to be killed. The story with the male gaur Odin in details was posted earlier in wildfact with photos. 

Odin:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Like I said above. I agree bull gaur can fought off tiger. And it based on predator.


Wolverine Wrote:Ok. So now Vegeta San let's imagine that Odin was not so strong, but a bit weaker. After causing him some wounds the tiger feeling that the herbivore is progressively weakening by losing blood and traumas will not leave the surroundings but will check the gaur the second night and the third night for sure and if decides that the gaur is already not enough strong will kill it, be sure. So as you can see the statement that tiger hunt of bull gaur could take a long periods of time is not completely wrong, but completely right.
I never heard something like tiger getting back to check out gaur health condition to take on and kill it. I don't think they do. If you have some accounts like that then it should be some of the rare incident but never be common technique for tiger..
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India Vegeta San Offline
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@peter can i ask you why my replies are not appearing here? 

Did I done anything wrong? I don't think I was. This is a argument right, i know the forum rules and regulations. I didn't surpassed that. 

But then, why my replies getting disappeared?
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( This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 02:31 AM by Wolverine )

Colegue, here the question is not what we are talking about, but how we talk. Everybody of us has his own opinions. If you don't agree with somebody just say: "I disagree with you" or "My opinion is different". But if say to somebody - "your statement is "totally wrong", than you are insulting the person... I think Rishi already told you.
In any way nobody of us is perfect, so already forgot about that. That's way I sometimes avoid communication if forums, its harder than in real life.
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India Vegeta San Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 02:33 PM by Vegeta San )

Wolverine Wrote: Colegue, here the question is not what we are talking about, but how we talk. Everybody of us has his own opinions. If you don't agree with somebody just say: "I disagree with you" or "My opinion is different". But if say to somebody - "your statement is "totally wrong", than you are insulting the person...

In any way nobody of us is perfect, so already forgot about that.

I know right, that was my opinion. This is a discussion. 
There's no guarantee people agrees with you in a discussion. Everyone has their opinions.
"Totally wrong" doesn't mean I insulted you.

 I'm just telling that your statement is far from truth. Tiger attacking a gaur and coming back to see it's health is not a common thing happens in wild. And if there's some incidents happened then it will be a exceptional case. I never heard something like this before...
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@Rishi  i just got a reply from an expert who told me nagarjuna sagar tiger reserve is connected to papikondalu and kawal tiger reserve. I guess it is probably with narrow patches of forests as I have read articles regarding nstr, gbm corridors and there are few tigers there as human interference is too high. Then these reserves that are far away from each other with maps showing no connectivity between them must also be having narrow patches of forests in between them. I can imagine connectivity through papikondalu. But to kawal i can't imagine a healthy connectivity. I came across many maps in which these narrow patches of forests are not to be seen.
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India parvez Offline
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Guys I had a good conversation with an onfield expert. He told me tigers regularly feed on gaurs. Sometimes they bring down gaurs in less than a minute by getting hold of their upper neck by jumping on their bodies. In forests with good densities of garu, they were known to learn to bring down gaurs in less than 5 minutes. There may be some exceptional cases from the past where less weighted tigers may have taken almost half a day and some ill fated tigers may have been killed in fights but in most of cases the tiger successfully predates on gaurs.
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