ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Shadow]

(10-21-2018, 07:44 AM)Vegeta San Wrote:

(10-20-2018, 07:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: But what comes to Amur tigers and brown bears. I also have been curious about their relationship in far east. I also think, that situation is kind of balance there. Tigers do kill brown bears, but what comes to adult bears, then we are talking about females. With male bears victims are young ones, not adults. Adult male brown bear and tiger there are obviously not challenging each others in normal situations. What comes to adult male bear and size, there is one thing to consider too and it would be also interesting to see more close details about weight statistics of bears.

Tigers had killed adult male brown bears too in history. There are four different Cases of it, all were legit sources. Ask @peter about this, he'll explain you in detail. 

Adult male brown bears are not immune to tiger attacks. But these are very rare, and probably not occurs by modern day smaller and unhealthy Siberian Tigers.

I've read a document from a member called @Vodmeister in his blog from old Carnivora.
Saying that historical ussuri brown bears are also giants on average as compared to modern day ussuri brown bears.
But unfortunately it has been totally changed to new Carnivora and I cannot found that document from his blog. 

Well if this is the matter, then why should modern day Siberian Tigers stopped targeting modern day bears (as they're also smaller than historical specimens). Maybe the reason of tigers being unhealthy. I've read a few sources saying that modern day Siberian Tigers are not healthy and barely reach adult size. 
This is important, tigers are efficient hunters. They don't need to risk their life against a Adult male Brown bear due to them being unhealthy. 

It must be a reason for tigers to stop attacking adult male brown bears. However adult male brown bears are also avoid confrontations with adult male tigers...

As I wrote, it looks like adult male brown bears and adult male tigers don´t seem to challenge each others in normal situations. Yes, when we look 19th century, 20th century and 21st century so far, we have a few cases back and forth with more or less information. Is there a few cases tigers killing adult male bears, why not? A few cases bears killing adult male tigers, why not? About 200 years is a lot of time and there have to be many cases which we never will know. 

But when we look at cases we know and include there uncertain ones which can be argued, we still have so few cases, that those are more or less meaningless. Obviously these animals are able to kill each others and that most probably is the thing keeping adult males avoiding each others usually. When we look latest timeline or as you say modern days, it looks to be just normal situation. If we put statistics there and include uncertain cases, we have a dead adult male brown bear maybe once in 40-50 years. Same with killed male tigers. So latest statistics can be seen also just confirming normal relationship between these animals. 

I haven´t seen any researcher talk about it, that tigers nowadays would be unhealthy, so I don´t know about that. I have seen theories, that it is more difficult to find prey and forcing tigers to consume more energy in hunting and keeping them in lighter weights. But hopefully conservation programs are efficient in future and if poaching can be stopped or at least limited to be a minor factor, maybe we can see in future some bigger tigers too, than lately, what comes to weight. Reply

[brotherbear]

Very nice post Shadow. In the wilderness, I believe that tigers normally choose bears at least 100 pounds ( 45 kg ) smaller than themselves as potential prey. It is my opinion that occasionally  a tiger will misjudge the size of the bear and end up in a bloody battle with a mature grizzly she-bear; a hard-earned meal. A grizzly normally leaves his mother at three or four years old and it is these sub-adults that a tiger will most often target. 
On the other side of the coin, a grizzly that dares to challenge a tiger over a carcass will only challenge a big cat smaller than himself; probably by two or three hundred pounds. I believe it is more about the size rather than the sex of the tiger. Neither the tiger nor the grizzly has a desire to find his fighting limitations. When a wild beast is injured, there is no first aid or emergency room for him. Life in the wild is harsh. 
 
There probably has been fierce bloody battles between full-grown males of both species ( over the past million years I'm sure ). My old friend Charger1 saidi it best I believe, "It would be a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object. Anything can happen." Reply

[Vegeta San]

(10-21-2018, 01:08 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Give us the sources Vegeta San.

Definitely....

#1. Here's an account from the great biologist, V.Mazak, from his book: "Der Tiger" of a male tiger that killed and ate a very large male Brown bear:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is the Sungari river Amur tiger, shot by hunter Jankowski, in Manchuria. This male tiger was reported to have killed and eaten a huge male brown bear, a few days before it was shot:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is the English translation of the German writing/paragraph marked in red on the page.

Mazak added:

"To complete the information on this giant tiger, I should perhaps mention that Jankowski wrote that the tiger had killed and eaten a very large male brown bear a few days before he was shot, of which only a leg and the head, found by Jankowski, remained ..."

*This image is copyright of its original author

The huge male brown bear was killed and eaten by the tiger in the summer of July 1943. Again, the bear wasn't in hibernation, it was killed in summer time, where scientific studies have shown thats when tigers mainly hunt and kill brown bears.

Here’s a sketch from Mazak, depicting a tiger killing a male brown bear:

*This image is copyright of its original author

#2. K.G. Abramov also reported on a male tiger who had killed a large male Schatun' in the 1958-1959 winter (In the Central Sikhote-Alin Mountains).

#3. Account from Russian wildlife Naturalist, Rakov, who also documented a case of a tiger that killed and ate a large male Brown bear: (Top paragraph).

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's the translation to the Russian text:

"In the basins of the river Tahobe, Kuznetsova in the winter of 1956/57 and 1958/59. There appeared two tigers, who bypassed: this river, went to the west, over the pass of the Sikhote-Alin. In December 1959 on the river. A light tiger killed a large brown bear, and lived near him for about 10 days, until it was eaten, and then left to the south along the coast-sea (AE Karavanov)."...

*This image is copyright of its original author

The large brown bear was referred to as 'him', which clearly indicates it was a large MALE Brown bear that was killed and eaten by the tiger.

#4. An adult male tiger killed adult male brown bear in a fight (Sysoev).

*This image is copyright of its original author

All these were from Russian literature and are legit. I thought you already know that... Reply

[Vegeta San]

(10-21-2018, 01:44 PM)Shadow Wrote: As I wrote, it looks like adult male brown bears and adult male tigers don´t seem to challenge each others in normal situations. Yes, when we look 19th century, 20th century and 21st century so far, we have a few cases back and forth with more or less information. Is there a few cases tigers killing adult male bears, why not? A few cases bears killing adult male tigers, why not? About 200 years is a lot of time and there have to be many cases which we never will know. 

But when we look at cases we know and include there uncertain ones which can be argued, we still have so few cases, that those are more or less meaningless. Obviously these animals are able to kill each others and that most probably is the thing keeping adult males avoiding each others usually. When we look latest timeline or as you say modern days, it looks to be just normal situation. If we put statistics there and include uncertain cases, we have a dead adult male brown bear maybe once in 40-50 years. Same with killed male tigers. So latest statistics can be seen also just confirming normal relationship between these animals. 

Tigers of modern day has lost most of their size. That must be one of the reason for tigers to avoid messing with adult male brown bears. And Brown bears naturally won't mess with adult male tigers.

(10-21-2018, 01:44 PM)Shadow Wrote: I haven´t seen any researcher talk about it, that tigers nowadays would be unhealthy, so I don´t know about that. I have seen theories, that it is more difficult to find prey and forcing tigers to consume more energy in hunting and keeping them in lighter weights. But hopefully conservation programs are efficient in future and if poaching can be stopped or at least limited to be a minor factor, maybe we can see in future some bigger tigers too, than lately, what comes to weight.

I've lost the source. Trying to find out, probably post whenever I found it. But one thing is clear, in history Siberian Tigers reach their maximum of 300kgs(mazak). But in modern day, 200kgs is the maximum. It says it all, they're definitely not reaching their full size... Reply

[Shadow]

(10-21-2018, 02:49 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Very nice post Shadow. In the wilderness, I believe that tigers normally choose bears at least 100 pounds ( 45 kg ) smaller than themselves as potential prey. It is my opinion that occasionally  a tiger will misjudge the size of the bear and end up in a bloody battle with a mature grizzly she-bear; a hard-earned meal. A grizzly normally leaves his mother at three or four years old and it is these sub-adults that a tiger will most often target. 
On the other side of the coin, a grizzly that dares to challenge a tiger over a carcass will only challenge a big cat smaller than himself; probably by two or three hundred pounds. I believe it is more about the size rather than the sex of the tiger. Neither the tiger nor the grizzly has a desire to find his fighting limitations. When a wild beast is injured, there is no first aid or emergency room for him. Life in the wild is harsh. 
 
There probably has been fierce bloody battles between full-grown males of both species ( over the past million years I'm sure ). My old friend Charger1 saidi it best I believe, "It would be a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object. Anything can happen."

Yes, there is a lot of speculation always in this kind of matters with only quite limited information available. One way to approach is to use logic and known behavior of animals. It would be insane for any predator to make all the time as suicidal attacks as possible. There are "hard targets" which are hard to kill, but biggest risk of failure is basically need to hunt again. Then "hard targets", which are hard to kill and also most probably fight back inflicting injuries or even kill attacker. For some reason males of these species are very seldom bothered by each others, whatever that reason then is. But it is logical to think, that in time some lesson has been learned by both of these species. Otherwise there would have to be a totally different situation.

Still I am more interested about poaching of tigers and how it could be stopped. It is a shame, that even in these days there are black markets endangering also tigers among many other species. Reply

[Spalea]

About previous talks:

From wikipedia, the "Ussuri brown bear" page:

Interactions with tigers

Ussuri brown bears are occasionally preyed on by Siberian tigers, and constitute about 1% of their diet (and up to 18.5% together with black bears in very particular cases).[10][11] Siberian tigers regularly prey on young bears but adult female Ussuri brown bears are also taken outside their dens as well.[6][12][13] Siberian tigers most typically attack brown bears in the winter in the bear's hibernaculum.[14] They are typically attacked by tigers more often than the smaller black bears, due to their habit of living in more open areas and their inability to climb trees. When hunting bears, tigers will position themselves from the leeward side of a rock or fallen tree, waiting for the bear to pass by. When the bear passes, the tiger will spring from an overhead position and grab the bear from under the chin with one forepaw and the throat with the other. The immobilised bear is then killed with a bite to the spinal column. After killing a bear, the tiger will concentrate its feeding on the bear's fat deposits, such as the back, legs and groin.[15] Tiger attacks on bears tend to occur when ungulate populations decrease. From 1944 to 1959, more than 32 cases of tigers attacking bears were recorded in the Russian Far East. In the same period, four cases of brown bears killing female and young tigers were reported, both in disputes over prey and in self-defense.[15][16][17][18] Gepnter et al. (1972) stated bears are generally afraid of tigers and change their path after coming across tiger trails. In the winters of 1970–1973, Yudakov and Nikolaev recorded 1 case of brown bear showing no fear of the tigers and another case of brown bear changing path upon crossing tiger tracks.[10][15][19][20] Large brown bears may actually benefit from the tiger's presence by appropriating tiger kills that the bears may not be able to successfully hunt themselves and follow.[21] During telemetry research in the Sikhote-Alin protected area, 44 direct confrontations between the two predators were observed, in which bears were killed in 22 cases, and tigers in 12 cases.[22]

As we can see the reality is far more nuanced than we can think... Reply

[Shadow]

(10-22-2018, 11:26 AM)Spalea Wrote: About previous talks:

From wikipedia, the "Ussuri brown bear" page:

Interactions with tigers

Ussuri brown bears are occasionally preyed on by Siberian tigers, and constitute about 1% of their diet (and up to 18.5% together with black bears in very particular cases).[10][11] Siberian tigers regularly prey on young bears but adult female Ussuri brown bears are also taken outside their dens as well.[6][12][13] Siberian tigers most typically attack brown bears in the winter in the bear's hibernaculum.[14] They are typically attacked by tigers more often than the smaller black bears, due to their habit of living in more open areas and their inability to climb trees. When hunting bears, tigers will position themselves from the leeward side of a rock or fallen tree, waiting for the bear to pass by. When the bear passes, the tiger will spring from an overhead position and grab the bear from under the chin with one forepaw and the throat with the other. The immobilised bear is then killed with a bite to the spinal column. After killing a bear, the tiger will concentrate its feeding on the bear's fat deposits, such as the back, legs and groin.[15] Tiger attacks on bears tend to occur when ungulate populations decrease. From 1944 to 1959, more than 32 cases of tigers attacking bears were recorded in the Russian Far East. In the same period, four cases of brown bears killing female and young tigers were reported, both in disputes over prey and in self-defense.[15][16][17][18] Gepnter et al. (1972) stated bears are generally afraid of tigers and change their path after coming across tiger trails. In the winters of 1970–1973, Yudakov and Nikolaev recorded 1 case of brown bear showing no fear of the tigers and another case of brown bear changing path upon crossing tiger tracks.[10][15][19][20] Large brown bears may actually benefit from the tiger's presence by appropriating tiger kills that the bears may not be able to successfully hunt themselves and follow.[21] During telemetry research in the Sikhote-Alin protected area, 44 direct confrontations between the two predators were observed, in which bears were killed in 22 cases, and tigers in 12 cases.[22]

As we can see the reality is far more nuanced than we can think...

We have this saying, maybe this is universal: Lie, bigger lie, statistics. Meaning of this is of course, that even though statistics usually tell us some numbers, which are right, it can still give us impression, which doesn´t hold in more close observation. Key to understand statistics and what they tell us is to look closer, what those statistics consists.

I for instance have read before all what you wrote here and I wrote my opinion fully aware of that statistic and also updated version of it. Those numbers are all right, but that statistic, when looking closer, just confirms, that females and young bears are victims when tiger kills a bear. I think, that this subject is quite old here too and no new information lately.

One interesting point from your text: " During telemetry research in the Sikhote-Alin protected area, 44 direct confrontations between the two predators were observed, in which bears were killed in 22 cases, and tigers in 12 cases.[22] " That is obviously wrong information. Statistic of 44 cases isn´t from some telemetry research. That number includes every old case too, which researchers accept as reliable cases. But then again you quote wikipedia, where that kind of mistakes can be found many times. Reply

[Spalea]

On an other hand, all big predators have suffered with the human interactions... The Ussuri brown bear like the Amur tiger.

But the bears have an advantage they can change their diet in case of persecution by humans:

https://www.adn.com/wildlife/article/why...015/07/21/

But by doing this, they also loose strength and size... 

Some websites speak about 600-kilo Ussuri brown bears, for exemple:

http://www.bearconservation.org.uk/ussur...rown-bear/

Where do these monstruous beasts exist now ? Reply

[Spalea]

@Shadow :

About #1853: I'm agree with you. I only wanted to show that interaction between Ussuri brown bear and tigers aren't one-sided interaction. But OK. I know that wikipedia sources can seem old fashioned.

Agree with you too, with numbers we can say all the things that we want. Reply

[Shadow]

(10-22-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :

About #1853: I'm agree with you. I only wanted to show that interaction between Ussuri brown bear and tigers aren't one-sided interaction. But OK. I know that wikipedia sources can seem old fashioned.

Agree with you too, with numbers we can say all the things that we want.

I think, that I have never claimed it to be one sided, but if someone has done that, then I disagree. Interaction between these animals is naturally interesting, but I have said all the time as my opinion (at least I think so), that there is kind of balance between these animals. More dead bears, but reasons for that, when looking closer, are no surprises. Tiger is more active hunter and also hunts 24/7/365. Bear hunts mostly on spring time and early summer, after that occasionally and when hibernating only dreaming of a big moose etc.... I would be surprised only if statistics would be in another way. 

Lately no new information, just time to time same old cases discussed again and again. And again. Well, of course predators are interesting, it is not as exciting to discuss how much grass an antelope can eat in a year. But maybe we get new information some day. Reply

[Shadow]

(10-22-2018, 12:01 PM)Spalea Wrote: On an other hand, all big predators have suffered with the human interactions... The Ussuri brown bear like the Amur tiger.

But the bears have an advantage they can change their diet in case of persecution by humans:

https://www.adn.com/wildlife/article/why...015/07/21/

But by doing this, they also loose strength and size... 

Some websites speak about 600-kilo Ussuri brown bears, for exemple:

http://www.bearconservation.org.uk/ussur...rown-bear/

Where do these monstruous beasts exist now ?

What comes to human interactions, it is naturally bad thing for predators if/when their potential prey numbers go down significantly. That seems to be the thing with Amur tigers, then again that same reason means less meat for bears too. It is very clear, that bears aren´t a problem for tigers and tigers aren´t a problem for bears. Human is for both if/when there is a lot of poaching and/or badly planned organized hunting with permissions from officials. Reply

[brotherbear]

(10-22-2018, 02:51 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Vegeta San - Old news. Your "4" attempts have been discussed more times than you can imagine. I am sure that historically there have been bloody fights within the wilderness of Russia where full-grown grizzlies have been killed by tigers. A tiger is a predator, perhaps the greatest land-based predator living. He is a professional assassin - a killer. He has the tools of the trade and knows how to use them. However, we have no eye-witness accounts and no proof that would stand-up in a courtroom. We are all waiting for that.

   
I know right, I'm just surprised when you asked me sources, as those were said by peter repeatedly in this thread. 

There's no eye witness accounts of bears killing  tigers too. But it is officially considered that Brown bears had killed female and young tigers. Those four cases are highly credible. I have no doubt for that! I 

And I've never argued this. Actually, I do not argue that there have been cases of tigers killing full-grown grizzly boars. But thus far no confirmed reports. But someday..... Reply

[Spalea]

(10-22-2018, 11:38 AM)Vegeta San Wrote:

(10-22-2018, 11:26 AM)Spalea Wrote: As we can see the reality is far more nuanced than we can think...

What you mean? Wikipedia doesn't include some sources. There are sources outside Wikipedia that are even more credible than what Wikipedia addresses. Wikipedia isn't the only reality..

Some sources depicting the tiger as an invulnerable predator aren't worth than these ones:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wildanim...s-t29.html

Here too, you can read some newspaper clipping... All squalid.

At least, Wikipedia remains in the middle of these two extremes. Reply

[Vegeta San]

(10-22-2018, 04:36 PM)brotherbear Wrote: And I've never argued this. Actually, I do not argue that there have been cases of tigers killing full-grown grizzly boars. But thus far no confirmed reports. But someday.....

Well, I don't think V.mazak, Sysoev, KG Abramov and AE Karavanov are lying. They are one of the most credible evidence in Russian literature. These are indeed confirmed reports..

There are no confirmed reports of tiger killing adult male brown bears between 1992-2018 according to peter. What that means? It means there are reports before that period. Ask @peter for more details.. Reply

[brotherbear]

(10-22-2018, 05:48 PM)paul cooper Wrote:

(10-22-2018, 02:51 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Vegeta San - Old news. Your "4" attempts have been discussed more times than you can imagine. I am sure that historically there have been bloody fights within the wilderness of Russia where full-grown grizzlies have been killed by tigers. A tiger is a predator, perhaps the greatest land-based predator living. He is a professional assassin - a killer. He has the tools of the trade and knows how to use them. However, we have no eye-witness accounts and no proof that would stand-up in a courtroom. We are all waiting for that.

And we have no eye witness accounts of humans evolving from apes. Stop pretending.

Exactly what are you assuming that I am pretending? I said straight out that I do believe that tigers can and have killed mature healthy full-grown grizzly boars within the last one-million years that they have shared the environment of the Russian wilderness. Probably hundreds of such events. But, we have not one single confirmed account on record. Sorry if this hurts your feelings or bruises your ego. But, there is much more than happens in the taiga unseen by man than is seen by man. Reply